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Brighton mainline capacity proposal

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mr_jrt

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I spotted the other day that the Bluebell have begun a consultation on their westward extension to Haywards Heath, and it got me musing again. Dusting off my very old proposal, I though it'd make for an interesting conversation if I'd gathered some more recent thoughts and opinions here. Heading off the immediate response, yes it smells very BML2-ey with all the baggage that entails. I genuinely think this is a much more practical solution to the problem BML2 purports to be solving though - additional capacity on the very congested Brighton mainline. Heading off the other likely response, yes, this would be very, very rubbish for the Bluebell after all their hard work. They should be compensated handsomely for that.

The gist is that whilst the Bluebell's extensions are fantastic, they should never have been lost to the national network in the first place, and the national network has to take priority over heritage operations. Accordingly, the first part of the proposal is fairly obvious: restore East Grinstead to Haywards Heath as an extension of the East Grinstead NR services with a modern double track electrified route.

The second part of the proposal is to implement NR's plans from a few years back to grade separate Keymer Junction and rebuild Wivelsfield with 4 platforms. I believe their intentions were to improve capacity by grade separating the junction, and the additional platforms were to give Brighton services somewhere to turnback without blocking the lines.

The third part is to widen to four tracks between Wivelsfield and Haywards Heath, widening the formation and building a short parallel viaduct adjacent to the Valebridge viaduct and adding either a second double track bore to the Haywards Heath tunnel, or a pair of flanking single track bores. Finally, grade separate Copyhold Junction as at Keymer.

This would provide additional capacity on the Brighton mainline by virtue of segregating the routes (though, if spare capacity was available you could also use the additional lines as loops for overtaking) whilst maintaining cross-platform connections for those needing them to access intermediate stations. The Eastbourne services could then be merged with the East Grinstead services, freeing up paths through Croydon (or not, as you could instead use them to combine frequencies to East Grinstead and Eastbourne). Having the lines paired by direction also means you could also mix and match, i.e. if capacity was available south of Copyhold but not north of it, then you could route additional Brighton/Hove services via East Grinstead to bypass the congestion.

Further interventions at Lewes for direct access to Brighton and at Croydon for more capacity where the branches meet are beyond the scope of this, though one or two obvious interventions spring to mind.

So, thoughts?
 
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30907

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First thought is that, feasibility aside, the route via East Grinstead is significantly slower and doesn't have capacity for non-stopping trains.

The good citizens of Lewes and beyond (or whichever route is chosen for diversion) would not be best pleased at being routed that way.
 

JonathanH

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So, thoughts?
My thoughts are that the Bluebell line doesn't have to worry about any trains currently running on the Brighton line being diverted via its route.

The East Grinstead line simply doesn't have capacity for fast services with the number of intermediate stations and the need to run services to Uckfield. Moreover, the junction at South Croydon is very slow so not a great idea to run more services over it.

The idea that there is money available to spend on any substantive upgrade of the Brighton Line is also unlikely.
 

mr_jrt

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Is it slower because of the stops, or the actual speed capability of the line? I vaguely recall when I looked at an old sectional appendix when I originally thought about this that the overall speeds weren't too dissimilar and the slight penalty (a few minutes, IIRC) would come from the increased distance rather than any speed major issues. Quick gander at Google Maps shows 41 mins EG to East Croydon, and HH to to East Croydon as 37 mins on Thameslink (and 29 mins on Southern, so presumably on the fast quarry lines).

If the number of intermediate stations on the East Grinstead branch is the issue, then how does the southern end of the Brighton mainline cope?
 

JonathanH

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If the number of intermediate stations on the East Grinstead branch is the issue, then how does the southern end of the Brighton mainline cope?
The passing loops at Haywards Heath and divergence at Wivelsfield and Preston Park all help, as does skip stopping. There are also fewer stations between Haywards Heath and Brighton than between East Croydon and East Grinstead.

Quick gander at Google Maps shows 41 mins EG to East Croydon, and HH to to East Croydon as 37 mins on Thameslink (and 29 mins on Southern, so presumably on the fast quarry lines).
From East Grinstead to Haywards Heath would still take time to get through Horsted Keynes and Ardingly which has to be added on to the 41 minutes noted above.
 

Sm5

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Via Ardingly and East Grinstead might be a more useful route for Hanson instead of running round at Haywards Heath ?

Similarly Newhaven stone freight etc could route this way and free up paths on the BML.
 

JonathanH

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Via Ardingly and East Grinstead might be a more useful route for Hanson instead of running round at Haywards Heath ?

Similarly Newhaven stone freight etc could route this way and free up paths on the BML.
They would still have to get through East Croydon and across the junction at South Croydon.
 

Sm5

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They would still have to get through East Croydon and across the junction at South Croydon.
They would still have to get through East Croydon and across the junction at South Croydon.
Yes, but your not stuck behind it trundling along from Gatwick Airport, for Ardingly stone, its two less run rounds. And if something goes pop, you can neatly tuck this away at EG sidings (thats the name for the connecting line between EG station and BBs viaduct) and await a path, today between HH and EC there is nowhere to stow it today.
 

paul1609

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Is it slower because of the stops, or the actual speed capability of the line? I vaguely recall when I looked at an old sectional appendix when I originally thought about this that the overall speeds weren't too dissimilar and the slight penalty (a few minutes, IIRC) would come from the increased distance rather than any speed major issues. Quick gander at Google Maps shows 41 mins EG to East Croydon, and HH to to East Croydon as 37 mins on Thameslink (and 29 mins on Southern, so presumably on the fast quarry lines).
East Croydon to East Grinstead is 19.5 miles, to Haywards Heath is 27.3 miles so about 40% further.
 

zwk500

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If you've got the sort of money this would require, you'd be far better off extending the Uckfield line through Ringmer to Glynde with a Brighton-Facing junction. Or just 4-tracking Balcombe Tunnel to Brighton.

East Grinstead to Haywards Heath or Lewes doesn't pass any significant settlements on the way. The alignment is not great and has steep gradients. The infrastructure is far more beneficial to the economy as a tourist attraction than a branch line.
Freight via Oxted would require massive rebuilding of a number of weak bridges and the line has extremely heavy gradients that won't be great for interworking with a passenger service tied to the BML
Yes, but your not stuck behind it trundling along from Gatwick Airport, for Ardingly stone, its two less run rounds. And if something goes pop, you can neatly tuck this away at EG sidings (thats the name for the connecting line between EG station and BBs viaduct) and await a path, today between HH and EC there is nowhere to stow it today.
1. The Ardingly train is too long for the current siding. 2. If the line were to be reopened as part of the national network, the bluebell platform would be demolished and the line rebuild as a conventional double track through to the viaduct so there would be nowhere to hold. 3. You can hold the stone train on the Slows between Three Bridges and Balcombe Tunnel, or approaching Gatwick Airport, or on the Croydon Reversible.
The runrounds aren't a massive problem, and a much cheaper option to get additional capacity at Haywards heath would be to put a DF-DS crossover in and allow the freight to hold on the Slow outside HH.
 

paul1609

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If you've got the sort of money this would require, you'd be far better off extending the Uckfield line through Ringmer to Glynde with a Brighton-Facing junction. Or just 4-tracking Balcombe Tunnel to Brighton.
The Arundel Curve and reversing the West Coastway London service to travel via Horsham would give you far far more bangs for your bucks than any of the East of the BML schemes. It has the advantage of having a largely unused mainline north of Horsham complete with the land for fast through lines that would bypass the Croydon bottleneck.
 

RichJF

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Great idea in theory, but without massive, massive investment anything via East Grinstead isn't really going to take off. Even as a Grinstead rail buff who would love to see all the local lines open again I admit the money would be far better off investing in the BML as a priority.

It will be great to see Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath open again but it'll likely remain a preserved railway for the foreseeable future.
 

32475

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Great idea in theory, but without massive, massive investment anything via East Grinstead isn't really going to take off. Even as a Grinstead rail buff who would love to see all the local lines open again I admit the money would be far better off investing in the BML as a priority.

It will be great to see Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath open again but it'll likely remain a preserved railway for the foreseeable future.
RichJF you have expressed my sentiments entirely.
 

JonathanH

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It has the advantage of having a largely unused mainline north of Horsham complete with the land for fast through lines that would bypass the Croydon bottleneck.
That 'unused mainline' has a poor down route out of Victoria, multiple suburban stations, the tight curves at Mitcham Junction and Epsom, relatively slow line speed and doesn't serve three important locations (Crawley, Gatwick and Croydon). Moreover, it is all two track railway south of Horsham and towards Brighton as well.

If it were viable to run services via an 'Arundel Curve' there would already be trains on that route via Littlehampton, which there aren't.
 

swt_passenger

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That 'unused mainline' has a poor down route out of Victoria, multiple suburban stations, the tight curves at Mitcham Junction and Epsom, relatively slow line speed and doesn't serve three important locations (Crawley, Gatwick and Croydon). Moreover, it is all two track railway south of Horsham and towards Brighton as well.
Also strange that NR have explained quite a few times that an Arundel Curve doesn’t really solve anything, and that there’s no capacity for additional services on the theoretical “unused mainline” route nearer to London. I’m sure this has been explained previously.
 

JonathanH

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Also strange that NR have explained quite a few times that an Arundel Curve doesn’t really solve anything, and that there’s no capacity for additional services on the theoretical “unused mainline” route nearer to London. I’m sure this has been explained previously.
Yes - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/brighton-main-line-2.35298/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arundel-chord-between-arundel-angmering.94423/#post-1662817

As of today, the separate Dorking / Horsham fast and Epsom slow service to Victoria is no more. Horsham is 81 minutes from Victoria via Dorking and 52 minutes from Victoria via Gatwick Airport.
 

RobShipway

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Like others, I have to ask why?

I spotted the other day that the Bluebell have begun a consultation on their westward extension to Haywards Heath, and it got me musing again. Dusting off my very old proposal, I though it'd make for an interesting conversation if I'd gathered some more recent thoughts and opinions here. Heading off the immediate response, yes it smells very BML2-ey with all the baggage that entails. I genuinely think this is a much more practical solution to the problem BML2 purports to be solving though - additional capacity on the very congested Brighton mainline. Heading off the other likely response, yes, this would be very, very rubbish for the Bluebell after all their hard work. They should be compensated handsomely for that.

The gist is that whilst the Bluebell's extensions are fantastic, they should never have been lost to the national network in the first place, and the national network has to take priority over heritage operations. Accordingly, the first part of the proposal is fairly obvious: restore East Grinstead to Haywards Heath as an extension of the East Grinstead NR services with a modern double track electrified route.

The second part of the proposal is to implement NR's plans from a few years back to grade separate Keymer Junction and rebuild Wivelsfield with 4 platforms. I believe their intentions were to improve capacity by grade separating the junction, and the additional platforms were to give Brighton services somewhere to turnback without blocking the lines.

The third part is to widen to four tracks between Wivelsfield and Haywards Heath, widening the formation and building a short parallel viaduct adjacent to the Valebridge viaduct and adding either a second double track bore to the Haywards Heath tunnel, or a pair of flanking single track bores. Finally, grade separate Copyhold Junction as at Keymer.

This would provide additional capacity on the Brighton mainline by virtue of segregating the routes (though, if spare capacity was available you could also use the additional lines as loops for overtaking) whilst maintaining cross-platform connections for those needing them to access intermediate stations. The Eastbourne services could then be merged with the East Grinstead services, freeing up paths through Croydon (or not, as you could instead use them to combine frequencies to East Grinstead and Eastbourne). Having the lines paired by direction also means you could also mix and match, i.e. if capacity was available south of Copyhold but not north of it, then you could route additional Brighton/Hove services via East Grinstead to bypass the congestion.

Further interventions at Lewes for direct access to Brighton and at Croydon for more capacity where the branches meet are beyond the scope of this, though one or two obvious interventions spring to mind.

So, thoughts?
It would make it slower going to London from places such as Lewes and Eastbourne, than it currently takes trains to travel. With that being the case, you would not get the passengers on the route and it would end up being closed again, having wasted millions of pounds.
 

30907

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Yes - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/brighton-main-line-2.35298/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arundel-chord-between-arundel-angmering.94423/#post-1662817

As of today, the separate Dorking / Horsham fast and Epsom slow service to Victoria is no more. Horsham is 81 minutes from Victoria via Dorking and 52 minutes from Victoria via Gatwick Airport.
I agree that the route via Dorking isn't the best, but the journey time was historically identical with that via Three Bridges. More to the point is that it misses out two major traffic sources in Croydon and Gatwick.
 

Bald Rick

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More to the point is that it misses out two major traffic sources in Croydon and Gatwick.

This is the most important point. The issue with any proposal to ‘bypass’ the Brighton Main Line, whether via East Grinstead, Warnham, or (ahem) Uckfield is that they miss the very significant traffic generators of Gatwick and Haywards Heath. Some miss Croydon too. All of these have significant intermediate traffic, as well as to London and Brighton.
 

MarkyT

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This is the most important point. The issue with any proposal to ‘bypass’ the Brighton Main Line, whether via East Grinstead, Warnham, or (ahem) Uckfield is that they miss the very significant traffic generators of Gatwick and Haywards Heath. Some miss Croydon too. All of these have significant intermediate traffic, as well as to London and Brighton.
...which is why solutions actually enhancing the Brighton line itself will almost invariably be a better bet, such as the massive CARS scheme, grade-separating the Eastbourne line junction, etc.
 

mr_jrt

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To all those asking why, my objective is to improve connectivity, squeeze more out of the paths we already have, and add capacity on a very congested railway. What other options are there for adding capacity to the Brighton mainline other than better utilising parallel routes? You've already got 12 car trains. You're not going to squeeze any more frequency onto it. Even extending the four track section further south would largely be wasted due to the branches joining further north. You need more tracks, and that's what the Oxted route offers, getting you much closer to London before you need to come up with an expensive intervention. At least this proposal maintains cross-platform interchange with the Brighton mainline for those needing the other route.

Yes, it would be a bit slower for services routed the longer way, but price it accordingly and you can use it to shift demand off the faster route, as has been used very successfully with the Uckfield branch. Sending some services via the new route and some via the old just adds more options for passengers. Combining existing services also means you get more bang for each path in the London area. Obviously that doesn't work if they can fill a 12-car train already, but in that scenario overlaying the services increases the frequency and hopefully evens out the loadings.

Frankly, timetables get chopped and changed all the time and services get added and removed, lengthening and shortening people's journeys by far more than the difference would most likely end up being. People are remarkably adaptable, and if they suddenly found themselves with a seat every day on their service, I'm not so sure an extra 10 minutes would matter. I don't recall anybody switching to their cars in protest when Southern added all those stops to the Brighton services that used to be first stop East Croydon. It was, what, an extra 3 stops, I think? At ~3 minutes longer a stop that's ~9 minutes right there.
 

Bald Rick

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You're not going to squeeze any more frequency onto it.

actually, you can. Hence the Croydon proposal.


Even extending the four track section further south would largely be wasted due to the branches joining further north.

One of those branches is, of course, the East Grinstead branch. On the assumption that we can have more trains north of South Croydon, do you think it is better for them to be routed on a line that serves the country’s second biggest airport, or Horsted Keynes?
 

zwk500

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Even extending the four track section further south would largely be wasted due to the branches joining further north. You need more tracks, and that's what the Oxted route offers, getting you much closer to London before you need to come up with an expensive intervention. At least this proposal maintains cross-platform interchange with the Brighton mainline for those needing the other route.
4-tracking south of Balcombe tunnel would be far more beneficial than any additional trains via Oxted because you can sort them onto the Fast lines south of Redhill and flight them into London. Anything that joins at South Croydon is trapped on the slows and without the full CARS scheme (which I think is unlikely to happen) you'll be building conflict into the very worst point of the plan.
 

JonathanH

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Anything that joins at South Croydon is trapped on the slows and without the full CARS scheme (which I think is unlikely to happen) you'll be building conflict into the very worst point of the plan.
The junction at South Croydon was an unresolved issue even in the full CARS scheme (and presumably will always be one).

What other options are there for adding capacity to the Brighton mainline other than better utilising parallel routes? You've already got 12 car trains.
Plenty of 8 car trains on the Brighton Line now that fewer people are using it in the peaks.
 

zwk500

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The junction at South Croydon was an unresolved issue even in the full CARS scheme (and presumably will always be one).
CARS would have deconflicted the Slow/Fast Crossover between Selhurst and East Croydon, allowing the conflicting moves over South Croydon jn to be paired up more effectively. At the moment the timetable has to be built around the crossing movement at Selhurst, making efficient usage of South Croydon difficult to achieve.
 

mr_jrt

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As stated at the beginning, I was very deliberately trying to limit the scope lest this turn into a redesigning the whole network affair, hence very deliberately drawing the line at South Croydon.

Without going into it in any great detail, the obvious suggestions I alluded to were either a 6th line (with the reversable 5th given over to it) to keep the branch largely segregated through Croydon, or a fast line tunnel for the BML under Croydon to free up the surface lines. North of Windmill there are 4 pairs of lines, and West & East Croydon combined pair up with those nicely with 8 platforms. The issue lies south of East Croydon where the lines reduce down to 5. If you could get a 6th in, then you could segregate the routes as you'd have matching line capacity north and south (4+4 & 2+6), with the Oxted branch having platforms 1&2 and merged in at Windmill to where you want them to go, with the BML having 3-6 (or 3-8 if rebuilt as planned).

Thanks for all the replies, btw. All good stuff.
 

MarkyT

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CARS would have deconflicted the Slow/Fast Crossover between Selhurst and East Croydon, allowing the conflicting moves over South Croydon jn to be paired up more effectively. At the moment the timetable has to be built around the crossing movement at Selhurst, making efficient usage of South Croydon difficult to achieve.
There's an overlap constraint at the north end of East Croydon on the slow side, so although you can run two up trains in parallel side by side all the way into the station simultaneously from South Croydon on the up slow and slow reversible, the train from Uckfield/East Grinstead on the slow reversible line can't cross over to the up slow or the fast reversible in front of the up slow train however because it would foul the overlap for signal 106 (as annotated in yellow on attached panel photo), which locks points 1608 in the normal position. You have to wait for the overlap to time out with the up slow train stopped in the platfrom to release the points, or just wait for the up slow train to depart and get out of the way, after which of course a subsequent up slow train can't be admitted to platform 4 until the crossing manoeuvre has completely cleared and released points 1608 to go back normal. Ideas for solving this constraint have been discussed in the past but the limited width of the alignment in the vicinity prevents any realistic solution short of the major widening work proposed in CARS.
1662416885098.png
 

zwk500

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@MarkyT thanks, but that's not a significant constraint. Trains from Victoria Cross fast to slow at Selhurst (and v.v) and trains from London Bridge Cross fast to slow at Norwood fork jn (down) and Windmill Bridge Jn (up).
I don't know how the Croydon reversible is used nowadays, but when I looked at future BML capacity getting all up Trains through P4 at ECR wasn't a major issue.
 

MarkyT

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@MarkyT thanks, but that's not a significant constraint. Trains from Victoria Cross fast to slow at Selhurst (and v.v) and trains from London Bridge Cross fast to slow at Norwood fork jn (down) and Windmill Bridge Jn (up).
I don't know how the Croydon reversible is used nowadays, but when I looked at future BML capacity getting all up Trains through P4 at ECR wasn't a major issue.
Looking at RTT, Platform 5 sees a few odd down trains on the slow side today but mostly it hosts London Bridge and Watford terminators. Even these are a bit of a pain as on northbound departure you can't have a simultaneous run in to 4 at the same time. Couldn't find any up passenger arrivals from the south in 5 on a cursory look, although there were occasional up freight paths.
 
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