Brighton to Farringdon Season - Clapham Junction and Victoria

[penx]

I have a Brighton to Farringdon Season ticket (marked 'not underground'). On some evenings I need to return from Victoria or Clapham Junction and need to know whether my ticket is valid, else what additional single/extension ticket I would need to buy to make it valid.

Here are some existing threads on the subject:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79837
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70985

There is a lot of disagreement and no official or definite answer so a further question is:

- Who can I ask to get a reliable, definite answer on routing validity?

Of note is that Farringdon is in the 'London Group' but not 'London Group Routeing Point Member', and map LB in the Routeing guide.

Also, the following comment from a member of Southern staff seems to indicate the route is valid:

I work for Southern
it grieves me that a Farringdon to Brighton "route not underground" ticket is valid for travel between Brighton and Clapham Junction (as my company will get virtually zero revenue from it) but its quite clear looking at map LB that Brighton-Clapham Junction-Waterloo/Waterloo East-London Bridge-Farringdon
is a permitted route and therefore a break of journey at Clapham Junction is legitimate. Please let me know if i'm wrong!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1198374&postcount=36

 

[yorkie]

I have a Brighton to Farringdon Season ticket (marked 'not underground'). On some evenings I need to return from Victoria or Clapham Junction and need to know whether my ticket is valid, else what additional single/extension ticket I would need to buy to make it valid.

Here are some existing threads on the subject:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79837
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70985

There is a lot of disagreement and no official or definite answer so a further question is:

Welcome to the forum

It is a permitted route, but some staff may not like you using it, so you may have to fight Penalty Fare appeals, get embroiled in disputes etc.

If they really dig their heels in, they can attempt to get the routeing withdrawn, though this does require DfT approval, and consulting with Passenger Focus.

From another origin, Elmstead Woods, a Kentish Town ticket was suggested as this may give you less hassle, though I've not looked up the detail whether it works from Brighton, but you could look into that.

- Who can I ask to get a reliable, definite answer on routing validity?

The Routeing Guide is on the ATOC website. I guess you could ask ATOC if you want something in writing.

Of note is that Farringdon is in the 'London Group' but not 'London Group Routeing Point Member', and map LB in the Routeing guide.

Farringdon is a mess!

Also, the following comment from a member of Southern staff seems to indicate the route is valid:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1198374&postcount=36

He is correct, though he now works for a rival company, and I am not sure if his replacement is competent with the Routeing Guide.

Even if they are, that does not guarantee that the Prosecutions department won't hassle you!

I've seen so many cases of passengers with perfectly valid tickets be given grief, and threats of prosecution even. The rail industry is totally unique in that respect - there is nothing comparable!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

- Who can I ask to get a reliable, definite answer on routing validity?

The Routeing Guide currently states that you should check your routeings against NRES, so my advice is this, if you can get NRES to show it as valid print it off, if not, it isn't valid.

 

[yorkie]

The Routeing Guide currently states that you should check your routeings against NRES, so my advice is this, if you can get NRES to show it as valid print it off, if not, it isn't valid.

However it is questionable whether the above statement forms a requirement, or if it is merely a recommendation as it is contradicted by the front page of the Routeing Guide which states:

This Guide shows the full range of permitted routes available for use with tickets on the National Rail network. If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk.

Additionally, the National Rail website states:-

... we would therefore encourage you to check any intended route using our Journey Planner to validate that it can be used with your ticket.

There is further evidence that there should be no such requirement from Passenger Focus, who ATOC are legally required to consult:

We were not consulted about the need for this cross reference requirement. We now intend to challenge its introduction

 

[maniacmartin]

The NRE journey planner that we must now supposedly consult doesn't allow one to specify NOT UNDERGROUND, so it can't be used to check this route.

Since the previous threads were made, the Routeing Guide has been changed. The only map between Brighton Group and London Group is now map LB which no longer has many of the lines it used to have.

The only way of now going via Clapham Junction that I can see is possibly under the 3 mile rule, but I haven't checked what routes this would allow.

Of course, if your season was issued when the previous Routeing Guide was current, it could be argued that that version governs your permitted routes....

 

[soil]

There are a number of BTN seasons at £88.30/wk:

London Bridge FCC Only
London Terminals FCC Only
Farringdon Not Underground
St Pancras Not Underground
Blackfriars Any Permitted
City Thameslink Any Permitted

All of these are routeing points, members of the London RP group, with the exception of Farringdon, which is an associated station.

The mapped route for BTN - London is map LB, which includes Brighton - Victoria, Brighton - Waterloo and Brighton - St Pancras (via London Bridge, Blackfriars, and Farringdon).

Since Farringdon is not a routeing point, you should be able to choose any mapped route to a member of the London routeing group (except St Pancras, since you would pass through the destination on your ticket), and make your way from there to Farringdon by any means other than underground.

So I conclude that London - Farringdon Not Underground is valid to Victoria and Waterloo (and also to Clapham Junction) as a mapped route to London.

Note that map LB erroneously marks Farringdon as a London Routeing Point member - it isn't, and for this reason you shouldn't be restricted to travelling there via London Bridge.

To St Pancras, Blackfriars, and City Thameslink, Victoria, Clapham Junction and Waterloo are not mapped. The tickets may still be valid to these stations under the shortest route rule, but I'm not going to check, as the Farringdon ticket is valid as a mapped route.

Note: this is theory, practice may be different!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Since Farringdon is not a routeing point, you should be able to choose any mapped route to a member of the London routeing group (except St Pancras, since you would pass through the destination on your ticket), and make your way from there to Farringdon by any means other than underground.....

Actually it is 'by the shortest route' from the associated routeing point group to the destination.

STEP 5

Permitted routes

If both stations are routeing points, go to STEP 6.

If one station is a routeing point and the other one is a related station, the permitted route is
the shortest route to the routeing point plus the permitted routes between routeing points.

If both are related stations, use the shortest distance to the first routeing point, followed by the
permitted routes between the routeing points, then finally the shortest route from the final
routeing point.

Where there are local journey easements, these may permit use of a longer route to and from
the routeing points.

It is at this point that I think people start arguing about what the shortest route is and whether routes deemed to be shorter than what is deemed to be the shortest route can apply and if those routes can include those over which the passenger cannot travel (because of a ticket routeing) and so on.....

 

[yorkie]

It is at this point that I think people start arguing about what the shortest route is and whether routes deemed to be shorter than what is deemed to be the shortest route can apply and if those routes can include those over which the passenger cannot travel (because of a ticket routeing) and so on.....

You mean we get to have the shortest route discussion all over again, except this time, to determine the shortest route from origin to the appropriate routeing point?

 

[soil]

Actually it is 'by the shortest route' from the associated routeing point group to the destination.

Well, from the associated routeing point, I.e. if you have chosen Victoria, then the shortest route from Victoria, not the shortest route from Liverpool street.

 

[penx]

Thanks for all the help, so I think the consensus is:

- I can travel from Victoria only if the 'shortest route to the routeing point' rule allows me to choose which station in the routeing point group I wish to go through. I would need to check with ATOC to get a definite answer on this.

- I can travel from a station such as Clapham Junction only if the station is within 3 miles from a station on my normal route. (I've checked and Clapham Junction is about 3.0-3.1 miles from Tulse Hill which the Brighton->Farringdon trains sometimes stop at)

 

[penx]

Also I notice that London Victoria is less than 3 miles from London Bridge, Farringdon, City Thameslink

 

[redbutton]

I know that RJ once posted that ATOC told him they consider "Not Underground" tickets to be only valid by rail through the tunnels. They disagree that one should be allowed to walk from one London Terminal to another to continue the journey.

I've also received this opinion in writing from SE when I asked whether their gateline staff at Victoria would let me through on a "Not Underground" ticket to West Hampstead, if I intended to walk (or bike, or taxi, etc) to another station to continue my journey.

So yes, while I agree with others here that it should be permitted, in practice I wouldn't do it unless I fancied fighting over a Penalty Fare.

Also the 3-mile rule is in terms of rail mileage, e.g. a journey of 20 miles is permitted if the direct route is 17 miles or more.