Bristol Airport Bus Services

[duncombec]

Why would the Big Lemon take over bus services in the Bristol and Avon area? They are a tiny independent from Brighton in Sussex so surely that is way too far for them? Has anything been announced about them possibly taking over? If so why would they be interested in this area?

[...]

An application for a Western area O-License was published in this week's Western area Notices & Proceedings (No. 2872):

PH2058842 SN	THE BIG LEMON C.I.C. Director(s): THOMAS DRUITT, Ron Tanner, Ryan Wrotny
The Big Lemon, Protran House, Boundary Road, Brighton, BN2 5TJ Operating Centre: LONG ASHTON PARK & RIDE, ASHTON ROAD, BRISTOL, BS3 2HB Authorisation: 12 vehicle(s) Transport Manager(s): DAVID COLIN MORRIS

(It arrives in my inbox as a Word document, hence the awkward formatting)

 

[Perthsaint]

Earlier this year I missed a flight from Bristol Airport because 3 consecutive airport buses failed to turn up at Temple Meads. And, to be fair, because going through security at the airport was a shambles.

 

[-Colly405-]

An application for a Western area O-License was published in this week's Western area Notices & Proceedings (No. 2872):


(It arrives in my inbox as a Word document, hence the awkward formatting)

That operating centre at Long Ashton does give hope that they might be looking at the S Bristol cancelled routes, and perhaps more obviously, the 505...

 

[Marcus Fryer]

An application for a Western area O-License was published in this week's Western area Notices & Proceedings (No. 2872):


(It arrives in my inbox as a Word document, hence the awkward formatting)

Parked up in St Augustine’s Parade this afternoon (12/9/22).

 

[Ashley Hill]

One could also use the train and get a taxi from Weston SM to the airport. Or pre-book one from either Yatton or Nailsea stations.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

One could also use the train and get a taxi from Weston SM to the airport. Or pre-book one from either Yatton or Nailsea stations.

The far-flung location of Bristol Airport is why taxi use is relatively small low. There is the A3 from Weston every hour. A nuclear family from Weston would pay £24 for return travel - I suspect a taxi one way is going to be c.£35-40.

Yes you can definitely take the A1 to or from the Airport Tavern for this reduced price. It is still possible. I have done it twice in the past couple of months (the last time just three weeks ago) so it is definitely possible. I think they removed the cheaper fares to and from the Airport Tavern when the A2 was introduced (so the A1 was the same price for any journey and had no local fares) but when the A2 was withdrawn they bought back the local fares on the A1 to and from the Airport Tavern stop. So the trick of walking to and from the Airport Tavern does work.

So working on that basis, the good people of Bedminster Down and the employees of Computacenter could use the A1 to get there?

I have done the walk between the Airport Tavern and the Airport Terminal and vice versa many times. It is fine with suitcases. I always do things such as this to save money (for example when i go to or from Luton Airport i always walk between the airport and railway station) so i do not think it is an issue. I have done the walk to and from the Airport Tavern in under ten minutes so it is not that far. Of course i understand if you are elderly or disabled or have very young children or a huge amount of suitcases it would not be suitable. But for an ordinary traveller with a suitcase it is fine.

I have walked when dropping the car at the Airport Tavern and then walking to the terminal. Easy enough with a smaller case. However, if you're a fit and active guy (and I guess you are), then that's ok. Most people simply aren't going to fancy that walk.

For most, walking to/from the bus station is much more preferable than a 15 walk to/from the Airport Tavern, especially the uphill walk and having to cross the A38.

I would much rather be greeted with a slow stopping local bus service with a cheap standard fare than an expensive premium priced fast bus service. I am sure there are a lot of passengers that are much happier to pay cheaper fares for a slower local service. Saving money is important to a lot of people. Many airports charge normal fares on the public transport to and from the airport so if they can do it there is no reason why others like Bristol Airport should charge extortionate fares.

You are clearly price-sensitive. Far fewer people are, as evidenced by the fact that the services have grown, even the commercial ones like the Falcon and the A4.

If they don't charge "extortionate fares" on buses or for parking, then you're simply going to have to pay for it another way. That might be through the price of your ticket or the airlines may simply relocate to another location. As I explained earlier, Bristol Airport charges the consumer rather than the airline so the airline gets to charge lower fares.

 

[markymark2000]

Are those National Express fares walk-up or advance purchase for a particular service? Fixed service advance purchase is all well and good for the trip to an airport, but for the return journey for peace of mind you need a flexible ticket and a frequent service!

NatEx has flexible tickets and specific service fares. It all varies.

So working on that basis, the good people of Bedminster Down and the employees of Computacenter could use the A1 to get there?

But they unfortunately can't use concessionary passes nor can they make use of any money saving day or weekly passes so they will only get the best value using the A1 if they only use the A1.

If they don't charge "extortionate fares" on buses or for parking, then you're simply going to have to pay for it another way. That might be through the price of your ticket or the airlines may simply relocate to another location. As I explained earlier, Bristol Airport charges the consumer rather than the airline so the airline gets to charge lower fares.

The more you preach that, the more it seems like your an airport manager trying to justify it despite everyone else knowing that it's corporate rubbish for 'we want to rinse the passenger and how can we do it, if they won't pay up for the parking, let's charge all of the other modes of transport (that they can enforce) into the airport as well.'

 

[Dai Corner]

If they don't charge "extortionate fares" on buses or for parking, then you're simply going to have to pay for it another way. That might be through the price of your ticket or the airlines may simply relocate to another location. As I explained earlier, Bristol Airport charges the consumer rather than the airline so the airline gets to charge lower fares.

The more you preach that, the more it seems like your an airport manager trying to justify it despite everyone else knowing that it's corporate rubbish for 'we want to rinse the passenger and how can we do it, if they won't pay up for the parking, let's charge all of the other modes of transport (that they can enforce) into the airport as well.'

Would you be happier if return air fares were £13 higher but included bus travel to/from the city centre and parking was £13 cheaper?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Local buses could get employees to work if the fares weren't so astronomical. £13 return is more than an hours wage for most people.

One example here could be Computershare reports to have 1,500 staff at the site on Bridgwater Road. Taking the A1 out of the equation, this are now had 3 buses per day, if the 52 comes back, that would be 9 buses per day. That's it unless you want to pay the extortionate 'Flyer' fare. The bus passes by every 20 minutes anyway, if a cheaper bus was offered, people in this site would see the bus as a more viable option

But they unfortunately can't use concessionary passes nor can they make use of any money saving day or weekly passes so they will only get the best value using the A1 if they only use the A1.

So having first of all said that it was £13 return. Of course, that was in relation to Airport employees and you were then advised that they get much reduced travel and, at the moment, don't pay at all. Then you cited Computershare. Now, I stated that I didn't know if the local fares were still suspended (until @busestrains) advised that you could still get local fares.

Now you're now saying that it's because people can't now use ENCTS or day/weekly passes?

The more you preach that, the more it seems like your an airport manager trying to justify it despite everyone else knowing that it's corporate rubbish for 'we want to rinse the passenger and how can we do it, if they won't pay up for the parking, let's charge all of the other modes of transport (that they can enforce) into the airport as well.'

As I said before, I am not here to defend anyone and not to preach. You said you wondered why people would use public transport when it was so expensive. I explained it was because the car parking was so expensive. How is that defending anyone?

I said that Bristol Airport has pursued a particular policy. That they did that for a reason - a clear strategy as opposed to other airports since 2000. I pointed out that when you take a directly comparable airport (in Cardiff) since 2000, they have grown their passenger figures massively - that is an indisputable fact. If you don't like that comparison, have a look at Glasgow or Southampton. Look at the facts... See how Bristol has grown in comparison to a similar-sized airport (in 2000), or one in 2019. Clearly, their policy may certainly be outrageous to you, but it hasn't damaged their passenger growth. Has it?

I don't like being stiffed for £5 or £10 when going there to pick up my better half, but I know that if they don't charge me for that, or for long stay parking, or for bus travel, it'll simply be added onto the plane fare.

Besides, why are you so outraged? I didn't believe you lived locally. Do you live in the area and how often do you use Bristol Airport?

 

[markymark2000]

Would you be happier if return air fares were £13 higher but included bus travel to/from the city centre and parking was £13 cheaper?

The numbers simply wouldn't add up to that, you know that.

So having first of all said that it was £13 return. Of course, that was in relation to Airport employees and you were then advised that they get much reduced travel and, at the moment, don't pay at all. Then you cited Computershare. Now, I stated that I didn't know if the local fares were still suspended (until @busestrains) advised that you could still get local fares.

When I checked the fares using Firsts open data (displayed then onto bustimes.org) around a month ago when I was enquiring to use the service and again more recently when checking for this discussion, I didn't see the local fares either so I was going off the basis local fares weren't available too so I was coming from that viewpoint.

Now you're now saying that it's because people can't now use ENCTS or day/weekly passes?

I'm building on all of the points that it is poor value and not overly useful for local travel.

Airport staff get reduced travel ok. For anyone else though, if they can now get local fares, those fares are still only valid for on the Flyer buses and so still builds on my point that they don't integrate with the local bus network. Computershare or other places couldn't connect buses in Bristol without being stung with 2 lots of fares when they could and should be able to use their normal First bus into Bristol then catch the A1 out to their place of work. People from Congresbury could get the X1 to Weston then A3 back.

I don't like being stiffed for £5 or £10 when going there to pick up my better half, but I know that if they don't charge me for that, or for long stay parking, or for bus travel, it'll simply be added onto the plane fare.

I'm not against airports charging some fees for services that they provide and I know that almost all airports charge buses for stopping there and so I've no issue with the general idea of slightly higher Airport fares and that sort of thing. My 2 key issues are 1, the amount they charge buses to access the airport which throws up the fares to a silly level. My second issue is that they contract the dedicated buses and then refuse for them to integrate with the local bus network. Take the Airport stop out of it, people travelling locally, not including the airport, having ticket acceptance would enable and encourage local bus travel which would help the Flyer to make more money on the local sections and help the local bus network become busier with people having 2 buses per hour instead of 1 (for example). Those are 2 points that you still refuse to pick up on.

As for 'it will simply be added to the plane fare', that depends. If integrated into the local bus network (Airport stop excepted) increased revenue there could mean Flyer makes more money so it covers more costs. Flyer almost certainly wouldn't lose out financially by having the Flyer buses in the local bus network outside of the Airport. The bus station, As I have said before (but conveniently ignored), 2 buses paying lower fees is better than 1 bus paying higher fees. Lower fees could mean more routes to the airport perhaps. 2x£5 is better than 1x£7 for example. Given the Airport bus station is how it is, it won't cost any more for the extra buses but that is extra money so the airport makes MORE MONEY off public transport.

 

[busestrains]

The far-flung location of Bristol Airport is why taxi use is relatively small low. There is the A3 from Weston every hour. A nuclear family from Weston would pay £24 for return travel - I suspect a taxi one way is going to be c.£35-40.


So working on that basis, the good people of Bedminster Down and the employees of Computacenter could use the A1 to get there?


I have walked when dropping the car at the Airport Tavern and then walking to the terminal. Easy enough with a smaller case. However, if you're a fit and active guy (and I guess you are), then that's ok. Most people simply aren't going to fancy that walk.

For most, walking to/from the bus station is much more preferable than a 15 walk to/from the Airport Tavern, especially the uphill walk and having to cross the A38.

You are clearly price-sensitive. Far fewer people are, as evidenced by the fact that the services have grown, even the commercial ones like the Falcon and the A4.

If they don't charge "extortionate fares" on buses or for parking, then you're simply going to have to pay for it another way. That might be through the price of your ticket or the airlines may simply relocate to another location. As I explained earlier, Bristol Airport charges the consumer rather than the airline so the airline gets to charge lower fares.

Lots of different Bus Stations in the UK charge bus operators to use them. Not all of them are free. But yet no bus operator would charge more expensive fares for passengers who are boarding or alighting at the Bus Station and normal local fares for passengers boarding on the High Street or anywhere else a few stops away.

So i do not know why they think it is acceptable to do this at airports. If the airport charges them a fee to enter the airport than that just has to be covered by the normal fare. Bus routes to and from airports are one of the most profitable and busy routes that bus operators run so they could easily cover the airport charges with the normal standard fares that they charge for any other bus journey.

These bus routes linking airports with nearby city centres are not struggling rural routes with hardly any passengers. These are busy well used routes. Bus operators can easily afford to cover any airport charges while still charging the same normal local bus fares as any other bus route.

The numbers simply wouldn't add up to that, you know that.


When I checked the fares using Firsts open data (displayed then onto bustimes.org) around a month ago when I was enquiring to use the service and again more recently when checking for this discussion, I didn't see the local fares either so I was going off the basis local fares weren't available too so I was coming from that viewpoint.


I'm building on all of the points that it is poor value and not overly useful for local travel.

Airport staff get reduced travel ok. For anyone else though, if they can now get local fares, those fares are still only valid for on the Flyer buses and so still builds on my point that they don't integrate with the local bus network. Computershare or other places couldn't connect buses in Bristol without being stung with 2 lots of fares when they could and should be able to use their normal First bus into Bristol then catch the A1 out to their place of work. People from Congresbury could get the X1 to Weston then A3 back.



I'm not against airports charging some fees for services that they provide and I know that almost all airports charge buses for stopping there and so I've no issue with the general idea of slightly higher Airport fares and that sort of thing. My 2 key issues are 1, the amount they charge buses to access the airport which throws up the fares to a silly level. My second issue is that they contract the dedicated buses and then refuse for them to integrate with the local bus network. Take the Airport stop out of it, people travelling locally, not including the airport, having ticket acceptance would enable and encourage local bus travel which would help the Flyer to make more money on the local sections and help the local bus network become busier with people having 2 buses per hour instead of 1 (for example). Those are 2 points that you still refuse to pick up on.

As for 'it will simply be added to the plane fare', that depends. If integrated into the local bus network (Airport stop excepted) increased revenue there could mean Flyer makes more money so it covers more costs. Flyer almost certainly wouldn't lose out financially by having the Flyer buses in the local bus network outside of the Airport. The bus station, As I have said before (but conveniently ignored), 2 buses paying lower fees is better than 1 bus paying higher fees. Lower fees could mean more routes to the airport perhaps. 2x£5 is better than 1x£7 for example. Given the Airport bus station is how it is, it won't cost any more for the extra buses but that is extra money so the airport makes MORE MONEY off public transport.

The fares data on the Bus Times website does show these local fares.

All of the First Bristol fares are here:

• All Routes Data - https://bustimes.org/fares/datasets/1306

The local fares for the A1 are here:

• A1 - Inbound - Single - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227001

• A1 - Inbound - Return - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227000

• A1 - Outbound - Single - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227007

• A1 - Outbound - Return - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227006

The expensive airport fares are shown here:

• A1 - Airport Full Fare - Single - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227378

• A1 - Airport Full Fare - Return - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227377

There are hundreds and thousands of fare data pages on the Bus Times website so it can sometimes take a while to find it but it is there.

 

[-Colly405-]

Parked up in St Augustine’s Parade this afternoon (12/9/22).

Interesting!
I was around the Centre late lunch and early evening rush hour, must have missed it.

Wonder if we should move this sub-thread to the Independents thread...

 

[markymark2000]

Lots of different Bus Stations in the UK charge bus operators to use them. Not all of them are free. But yet no bus operator would charge more expensive fares for passengers who are boarding or alighting at the Bus Station and normal local fares for passengers boarding on the High Street or anywhere else a few stops away.

So i do not know why they think it is acceptable to do this at airports. If the airport charges them a fee to enter the airport than that just has to be covered by the normal fare. Bus routes to and from airports are one of the most profitable and busy routes that bus operators run so they could easily cover the airport charges with the normal standard fares that they charge for any other bus journey.

An 'Airport premium' of some kind does make some sense, possibly limited at £2 premium. There are fees and we all get that, Airports are full of charges. I think the most common way that people would do it is having an airport just outside of a ticket zone but that premium isn't normally much. It's harder to find the examples now as local public transport executives have got the fares under local schemes including multi operator schemes. Travel West (or West of England Combined Authority) have chosen not to do this.

These bus routes linking airports with nearby city centres are not struggling rural routes with hardly any passengers. These are busy well used routes. Bus operators can easily afford to cover any airport charges while still charging the same normal local bus fares as any other bus route.

They aren't commercial routes though except the A4, it's contracted from the Airport so the Airport charges what they want. The A4, as the airport fees are clearly high, they have to pass on the charges to passengers.

The fares data on the Bus Times website does show these local fares.

All of the First Bristol fares are here:

• All Routes Data - https://bustimes.org/fares/datasets/1306

The local fares for the A1 are here:

• A1 - Inbound - Single - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227001

• A1 - Inbound - Return - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227000

• A1 - Outbound - Single - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227007

• A1 - Outbound - Return - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227006

The expensive airport fares are shown here:

• A1 - Airport Full Fare - Single - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227378

• A1 - Airport Full Fare - Return - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/227377

There are hundreds and thousands of fare data pages on the Bus Times website so it can sometimes take a while to find it but it is there.

The bottom ones are what I found, I didn't see the others. Given the £8 fare is shown in the normal fare tables, not sure why they have separate entries but that's another matter.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So i do not know why they think it is acceptable to do this at airports. If the airport charges them a fee to enter the airport than that just has to be covered by the normal fare. Bus routes to and from airports are one of the most profitable and busy routes that bus operators run so they could easily cover the airport charges with the normal standard fares that they charge for any other bus journey.

These bus routes linking airports with nearby city centres are not struggling rural routes with hardly any passengers. These are busy well used routes. Bus operators can easily afford to cover any airport charges while still charging the same normal local bus fares as any other bus route.

I guess it depends on the size of the fee? For the A4 Air Decker, they are clearly charged, as is Stagecoach and National Express, substantial fees for using the airport and, once again, local fares only apply to Highridge.

Would you prefer it if the charge was simply added into the air fare?

Anyhow, it doesn't seem to have dampened the usage of Bristol Airport nor the buses themselves.

 

[Snow1964]

This is something I do agree with. The new bus station is not as handy as the old arrangements. Not certain why they moved bused from the front of the terminal building (security?) and the new facilities are fairly perfunctory.

Isn’t it because it was supposed to be temporary. The multi-storey is the first of two, and the second one was to have a whole new bus interchange on the roof (much closer to the terminal level unlike current one down ramps and steps)

Public plans for a purpose-built public transport interchange directly opposite the terminal.
This will comprise a coach and bus station, together with taxi ranks and a drop-off zone, with an enclosed walkway providing easy pedestrian access to the terminal. The interchange will be situated on the roof of a new multi-storey car park, one of two to be built under the comprehensive development programme which was granted planning consent in 2011. The initial phase of the first multi-storey block opens this spring.
This state-of-the art facility could be a first step to the delivery of a truly integrated transport hub. In the longer term, a mass transit station could form part of an integrated structure linking the terminal

On page 27 of this link

Page not found

www.bristolairport.co.uk

 

[CN04NRJ]

To be fair, why anyone would use public transport to Bristol Airport is beyond me anyway, the fares are astronomical. The Airport taking full advantage of bus station fees and contracting out the buses rather than letting commercial operators do their thing. Seems to be very much like Edinburgh rinsing people who travel sustainably in the same way they rinse anyone parking. Very poor to see an airport acting in such a way. Why can't more be like Manchester and Liverpool, keeping costs for buses to a minimum with no price premium for passengers using the Airport.

For Edinbrugh £4.50 single and £7.50 open return on the buses is expensive? Every 10 minutes from 0350 and every 30 mins 0100-0400. Used the 0400 to the Airport last Friday and come back today late afternoon (admittedly I have a staff pass).

Bristol is absolutely diabolical, buses that are too small - extremely expensive prices and slow journey time. Glasgow Airport, can't remember what I paid last time but it was eye watering. Don't see how you can say the EDI services are expensive into the city - not sure of the prices for other operators going to Glasgow/Fife etc?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bristol is absolutely diabolical, buses that are too small - extremely expensive prices and slow journey time.

Replaced Eclipses with e400mmcs. The slow journey time... can't help Bristol traffic and the A38! Of course, you could not serve Temple Meads and Bedminster

 

[busestrains]

For Edinbrugh £4.50 single and £7.50 open return on the buses is expensive? Every 10 minutes from 0350 and every 30 mins 0100-0400. Used the 0400 to the Airport last Friday and come back today late afternoon (admittedly I have a staff pass).

Bristol is absolutely diabolical, buses that are too small - extremely expensive prices and slow journey time. Glasgow Airport, can't remember what I paid last time but it was eye watering. Don't see how you can say the EDI services are expensive into the city - not sure of the prices for other operators going to Glasgow/Fife etc?

The buses and trams are absolutely extortionate to Edinburgh Airport when you compare them with prices anywhere else of the same distance in the area.

Compare the price of the bus to/from the Airport with the price of the bus anywhere else:

Lothian Buses to/from Edinburgh Airport:
• Single - £4.50
• Return - £7.50
• Day - £10.00

Lothian Buses anywhere else in the area:
• Single - £1.80
• Return - N/A
• Day - £4.50

It is even worse on the tram with the prices to/from the Airport costing even more than the bus:

Edinburgh Tram to/from Edinburgh Airport:
• Single - £6.50
• Return - £9.00
• Day - £10.00

Edinburgh Tram anywhere else in the area:
• Single - £1.80
• Return - £3.40
• Day - £4.50

So i think those fare to/from the Airport are absolutely extortionate.

For example on the Lothian Bus it costs almost three times the price to go to/from the Airport as it does to go anywhere else of the same distance.

Taking the First Bus is even cheaper (it was £1.60 Single and £2.40 Return when i recently took it but i am unsure whether there have been any recent fare increases) if you take this option.

So yes i think those bus prices you mention are actually extremely expensive when you consider that you can go anywhere of the same distance (or even further distance) for only about a third of that price.

Even though the Edinburgh Airport fares are cheaper than the Bristol Airport and Glasgow Airport fares they are still a complete rip off.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The buses and trams are absolutely extortionate to Edinburgh Airport when you compare them with prices anywhere else of the same distance in the area.

Compare the price of the bus to/from the Airport with the price of the bus anywhere else:

Lothian Buses to/from Edinburgh Airport:
• Single - £4.50
• Return - £7.50
• Day - £10.00

Lothian Buses anywhere else in the area:
• Single - £1.80
• Return - N/A
• Day - £4.50

It is even worse on the tram with the prices to/from the Airport costing even more than the bus:

Edinburgh Tram to/from Edinburgh Airport:
• Single - £6.50
• Return - £9.00
• Day - £10.00

Edinburgh Tram anywhere else in the area:
• Single - £1.80
• Return - £3.40
• Day - £4.50

So i think those fare to/from the Airport are absolutely extortionate.

For example on the Lothian Bus it costs almost three times the price to go to/from the Airport as it does to go anywhere else of the same distance.

Taking the First Bus is even cheaper (it was £1.60 Single and £2.40 Return when i recently took it but i am unsure whether there have been any recent fare increases) if you take this option.

So yes i think those bus prices you mention are actually extremely expensive when you consider that you can go anywhere of the same distance (or even further distance) for only about a third of that price.

Even though the Edinburgh Airport fares are cheaper than the Bristol Airport and Glasgow Airport fares they are still a complete rip off.

Are the operators not charged by the airport for access, reflecting the additional cost?

 

[Citistar]

Are the operators not charged by the airport for access, reflecting the additional cost?

At Bristol, i believe that operators are charged for commercially operated services (Falcon, A4). Services procured by the Airport themselves (A1, A3) and those operated under contract to local transport authorities through mutual arrangement with the airport (54, 55) are presumably exempt.

The Airport set the fares and conditions for the A1 and A3 services, hence why almost all of First's usual fare arrangements do not apply to these services.