Bristol - Manchester service

[rubin]

Why sometimes this service needs to change direction at Birmingham but sometimes not?

 

[JonathanH]

Why sometimes this service needs to change direction at Birmingham but sometimes not?

It can go via Selly Oak or via Camp Hill as timetabling requires. The first routeing requires a reversal because it enters New Street from the west. The second doesn't need a reversal because it enters New Street from the east.

 

[The exile]

It can go via Selly Oak or via Camp Hill as timetabling requires. The first routeing requires a reversal because it enters New Street from the west. The second doesn't need a reversal because it enters New Street from the east.

Presumably it can (if necessary) also go via Duddeston as well as via Soho - thus giving 4 permutations.

 

[Taunton]

Is this like the approach to Victoria, which can go either via Herne Hill or via Catford, depending on what stopping train is ahead, and is determined by the minute on approach rather than sticking to the working timetable? Over many past years I never recall any mainstream service from the Bristol line going via Camp Hill.

 

[The Planner]

Over many past years I never recall any mainstream service from the Bristol line going via Camp Hill.

Most of them do it on a WTT basis.

 

[Nunners]

Is this like the approach to Victoria, which can go either via Herne Hill or via Catford, depending on what stopping train is ahead, and is determined by the minute on approach rather than sticking to the working timetable? Over many past years I never recall any mainstream service from the Bristol line going via Camp Hill.

I would say most of the Bristol-Manchester trains I've been on were via Camp Hill

 

[Nottingham59]

The original logic for the Cross-country timetable was for Trains from Bristol heading to Manchester went via Camp Hill, and Bristol trains heading to Leeds went via Selly Oak, so neither route had to reverse. But it doesn't seem to have kept to that, i guess.

 

[Halish Railway]

The original logic for the Cross-country timetable was for Trains from Bristol heading to Manchester went via Camp Hill, and Bristol trains heading to Leeds went via Selly Oak, so neither route had to reverse. But it doesn't seem to have kept to that, i guess.

I think a more important factor for Bristol-bound trains as accommodating the Hereford service.

When the Cross City line ran every ten minutes, the southbound departure times from New Street were 03, 15, 23, 33, 43 and 53 minutes past the hour. The out of pattern 15 minutes past the hour is pushed back by two minutes compared to the other departures to accommodate the 12 minutes past departure of an Edinburgh to Plymouth service. Had the Manchester to Bristol services had gone via University the 43 minutes past Cross City departure would have to be pushed back to 45 minutes past and would prevent the 50 minutes past departure from New Street to Hereford from having a clear run on the two-track section as far as King's Norton.

The timetabling of the Hereford service is restricted by the number of single-lead junctions and singe-track sections between Bromsgrove and Hereford, so its a service that needs to run punctually and not have any avoidable pathing allowances added into the timetable. Hope that this explanation is understandable and not too long-winded.

 

[Wychwood93]

Today we have all of them reversing at New Street:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bristol Temple Meads all day on 23/03/2024

Train information at Bristol Temple Meads all day on 23/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

The original logic for the Cross-country timetable was for Trains from Bristol heading to Manchester went via Camp Hill, and Bristol trains heading to Leeds went via Selly Oak, so neither route had to reverse. But it doesn't seem to have kept to that, i guess.

This discussion has taken place quite a few times since the 2007 changes to the XC network that established the current standard pattern, and IIRC there has almost always been a difference between what the WTT shows and what actually happens on the day, especially in the northbound direction.

 

[Halish Railway]

Today we have all of them reversing at New Street:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bristol Temple Meads all day on 23/03/2024

Train information at Bristol Temple Meads all day on 23/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

But going the other way they go via the Camp Hill line. The pathing of the Hereford to Birmingham service heading towards Birmingham is a bit different than going the other way as it is flighted immediately behind the Plymouth to Edinburgh services from Stoke Works Junction, so doesn't get in the way of the Bristol to Manchester services.

 

[D6975]

Back in the 1980s, all Bristol - New St trains went via Selly Oak. The only exception was 1S19 which went via Camp Hill in order to access a long enough platform to accommodate the train. (1S19 was a long sleeper running up to 15 coaches). In more recent times, Camp Hill has seen much more use, it seems to be dependant on how to fit in with other local services. Back in loco hauled days, services heading towards Manchester or Liverpool required a loco change, much easier to drop the new loco on the back than swap locos on the front at such a busy location. This was the main reason for routing them via Selly Oak.

 

[nw1]

I must have done Bristol to Birmingham or Birmingham to Bristol around 6 or 7 times and I've never gone via Camp Hill. This was mostly in the Voyager era (I went that way quite frequently around 2010 or 2011, mostly because I was fed up with the overcrowding on the more direct Reading route) though there were a couple of earlier trips, I remember heading northbound in both 1994 and 1999.

I can't remember whether the services were Manchester or northeast-bound, though.

 

[D6975]

Having aroused my curiousity, I looked up my recent haulage log entries. In recent years I've gone via Selly Oak 16 times and Camp Hill 14 times, so pretty much an even split.

 

[Halish Railway]

Back in loco hauled days, services heading towards Manchester or Liverpool required a loco change, much easier to drop the new loco on the back than swap locos on the front at such a busy location. This was the main reason for routing them via Selly Oak.

IIRC back in the locomotive hauled days Cross City trains ran every 15 minutes compared to every 10 minutes as was the case up until the pandemic.

 

[Pokelet]

I did see somewhere on here (ages ago) that northbound trains from Bristol towards BHM can accept whichever route is offered to them at Kings Norton, either Selly Oak or Camp Hill. Is this still the case?

 

[Halish Railway]

I did see somewhere on here (ages ago) that northbound trains from Bristol towards BHM can accept whichever route is offered to them at Kings Norton, either Selly Oak or Camp Hill. Is this still the case?

Yes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While it's annoying in terms of booking seats and/or attempting to gauge direction of travel, it's so good that the diversionary routes available are so robust that Bristol-bound services could in theory leave from either direction at New Street.

 

[507020]

Having aroused my curiousity, I looked up my recent haulage log entries. In recent years I've gone via Selly Oak 16 times and Camp Hill 14 times, so pretty much an even split.

Do you also happen to have recorded which were on Manchester services and which were on York etc services, to assess which routes used by each.

Your even split would be typical of either someone travelling randomly on any service between Birmingham and points south, with all sticking to the booked route, or of the trains randomly being sent via both routes.

While it's annoying in terms of booking seats and/or attempting to gauge direction of travel, it's so good that the diversionary routes available are so robust that Bristol-bound services could in theory leave from either direction at New Street.

Are they strictly diversionary routes if they can often run in either direction? Not only is route knowledge resilient, but also the western and eastern approaches to the station and access to platforms so as to allow either a reversal or not.

 

[nw1]

IIRC back in the locomotive hauled days Cross City trains ran every 15 minutes compared to every 10 minutes as was the case up until the pandemic.

I seem to remember this. Checking Table 55 of the 1982 timetable on Timetable World, it was every 15 minutes, mostly clockface at 03/18/33/48 but in even hours the xx18 was delayed to xx23.

I can't figure out why it's that pattern specifically from the XC departures on Table 51 though which are, during the middle-of-day period:

1019 ex-Newcastle
1024 Manchester-Cardiff via Lydney (other services listed went to Bristol or beyond)
1115 ex-Liverpool
1215 ex-Newcastle
1320 ex-Manchester
1415 ex-Aberdeen/Glasgow WCML
1435 ex-Edinburgh ECML

I think all ECML services were HST operated and the rest were conventional loco-hauled with a change at New Street.

So no obvious reason why the Cross-City services were xx23 in even hours. For example there is no clash for the theoretical 1218 or 1418, while the 1019 and 1024 would clash with both the theoretical 1018 and actual 1023.

 

[30907]

I seem to remember this. Checking Table 55 of the 1982 timetable on Timetable World, it was every 15 minutes, mostly clockface at 03/18/33/48 but in even hours the xx18 was delayed to xx23.

I can't figure out why it's that pattern specifically from the XC departures on Table 51 though which are, during the middle-of-day period:

1019 ex-Newcastle
1024 Manchester-Cardiff via Lydney (other services listed went to Bristol or beyond)
1115 ex-Liverpool
1215 ex-Newcastle
1320 ex-Manchester
1415 ex-Aberdeen/Glasgow WCML
1435 ex-Edinburgh ECML

I think all ECML services were HST operated and the rest were conventional loco-hauled with a change at New Street.

So no obvious reason why the Cross-City services were xx23 in even hours. For example there is no clash for the theoretical 1218 or 1418, while the 1019 and 1024 would clash with both the theoretical 1018 and actual 1023.

I don't have quick access to 70s timetables, but I think the answer is: when the Cross-City service came in, Cross-Country service had been operating on an interval basis through Birmingham which included xx15 towards Bristol and on the even hours xx20 towards Cardiff. The xx18/23 variation reflects that.
The pattern is still partly visible in 1982, but the Manchester-origin services must by then have been using Camp Hill to avoid the obvious conflict.

 

[jfollows]

In 1979-80, the SX passenger trains booked to use the Camp Hill route were:

• 1M86 10:32 Newquay/12:30 FO Plymouth-Manchester
• 1E12 13:35 MO NA Torquay-Newcastle
• 1S23 21:30 FO Bristol-Edinburgh

NA - not advertised

Nothing booked in the down direction.
Quite a few SO workings in both directions, though.
The relatively intense Cross-City DMU service started in 1978, so was in place by then. Someone in timetable planning had done a lot of work to fit the services together, primarily over the line through Bournville.

By 1983-84 this had expanded to:

• 2V68 09:16 Birmingham NS-Worcester SH
• 1V72 08:25 Manchester-Cardiff (10p25 from Birmingham NS)
• 2V68 10:34 Birmingham NS-Great Malvern
• 2V68 13:24 Birmingham NS-Hereford
• 2V68 15:34 Birmingham NS-Worcester SH
• 2V68 16:19 Birmingham NS-Great Malvern
• 2V68 18:34 Birmingham NS-Worcester SH
• 
  
• 1M86 11:11 FO Truro/12:45 FO Plymouth-Manchester
• (the up fast Worcester line services went in front of a Cross-City DMU at King's Norton and via Bournville)

p - advertised departure time one minute earlier

Then by 1986-87:

• 1V55 09:20 Liverpool-Penzance (11p26 from Birmingham NS)
• 1V55 10:55 Manchester-Plymouth (12:45 from Birmingham NS)
• 1V84 12:00 Liverpool-Plymouth (13p46 from Birmingham NS)
• 1V76 13:18 FO York-Plymouth
• 1V86 16:55 Manchester-Plymouth (18:45 from Birmingham NS)
• (the fast Worcester services now went via Stourbridge Junction)
• 
  
• 1M29 06:15 Bristol-Manchester (07:56 arrive Birmingham NS)
• 1M49 07:40 Bristol-Liverpool (09:25 arrive Birmingham NS)
• 1S84 09:50 Paignton-Glasgow (13:46 arrive Birmingham NS)
• 1M85 10:45 Paignton-Manchester (14:22 arrive Birmingham NS)
• 1M78 08:20 THO NA Newquay-Crewe (14:44 arrive Birmingham NS)
• 1M83 10:30 Penzance-Liverpool (17:00 arrive Birmingham NS)
• 1S19 21:25 Bristol-Glasgow (23:29 arrive Birmingham NS)

Obviously these could all change on the day, given the Sectional Appendix such as today's (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 24/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix March 2024.pdf) mentioned earlier:

MD306 - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET TO ASHCHURCH (EXCL.) (VIA DUNHAMPSTEAD)
KINGS NORTON To BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET
Up direction CrossCountry services booked to run between Kings Norton and Birmingham New Street, either via Selly Oak or via Lifford East Junction and Bordesley Junction, may be diverted accordingly without warning. Drivers so routed need not observe the second sentence of Rule Book, Module S7, Section 1.2.
Dated: 21/10/2017

But it certainly accords with my memories from the late 1970s that it was an "unusual" route to take, and worthy of note. More recently, it's much more common of course. Tomorrow's booked XC passenger workings (mainly services on the Bristol-Manchester workings) attached.

So no obvious reason why the Cross-City services were xx23 in even hours. For example there is no clash for the theoretical 1218 or 1418, while the 1019 and 1024 would clash with both the theoretical 1018 and actual 1023.

By 1983-84 these were indeed 12:18 & 14:18; there was still a 10:23 because the 10p25 ex-Manchester-Cardiff (advertised 10:24) went via Camp Hill so no clash but there was a SO 10:19 departure (Leeds-Newquay) and the 10:23 ran Mon-Sat.

 

[D6975]

Do you also happen to have recorded which were on Manchester services and which were on York etc services, to assess which routes used by each.

Manchesters were mostly Camp Hill, except in the early morning when they went t'other way.