Britannias on the GC Marylebone line in 1965

[Martello]

A correction to my first post.....

Sightings on 9/10/65 were both at Northwick Park, not Wembley - so definitely ALL the sightings were on 14.38 and 16.38 Nottingham trains. Sorry for the confusion.

# # #

A couple of years ago, I started a thread about the Marylebone to Nottingham trains in 1965/66 (GC London Nottingham trains 1960s),which produced plenty of interesting information.

I’ve been looking at my ‘cop book’ notes again and noticed that four Britannias appeared in October / November 1965.

As I was spotting at Northwick Park or Wembley, where GC lines crossed the LNW main line, I needed to try to establish whether these Britannias were on the GC lines or the LNW main line, as my notes did not have this detail.

Eight Britannias were moved to 2D (ex 85C) Banbury at the beginning of October, but only remained there until the beginning of January 1966.

The four that I saw were amongst these eight; 70046 and 70054 at Wembley, both 9/10/65, 70050 at Northwick Park on 23/10/65 and 70045 at Wembley on 6/11/65.

I’ve found a photo by Keith Widdowson of 70050 at Marylebone on 23/10, about to leave on the 14.38 to Nottingham, which confirms my sighting at Northwick Park.

The loco for this train reached Marylebone on the 08.15 from Nottingham via Harrow on the Hill, and the loco for the 16.38 train reached London on the empty newspaper vans that ran from Nottingham to Marylebone via the GC/GW Joint Line and the connection from Northolt Junction to Neasden Junction. This would have passed Wembley at the time I was there on 9/10 and 6/11, but this doesn’t account for a second Britannia on 9/10.

1A Willesden had closed to steam on 27th September, so did all steam working on the LNW line cease after that date?

A further sighting at Wembley on 1st Jan 1966 is also interesting - 92085 and 44665 were seen. According to www.brdatabase.info 92085 was allocated to 8H Birkenhead and 44665 was a Colwick engine, so it was likely that the Black Five was working the 11:00 newspaper vans from Nottingham to Marylebone, but what was the 9F doing?

Was there a second regular steam working over the Northolt Jc – Neasden Jc line that I didn’t know about?

I have a record of 112 Nottingham train workings between the beginning of January and late August 1966 (that's about 25% of the trains that ran in that time). All these were worked by Black Fives. I'll post some details of those workings in a separate post in due course.

 

[Harvester]

The Britannias, during their short stay at Banbury, were diagramed to work some of the Nottingham to Marylebone trains. IIRC they ran light engine to and from Woodford, where a loco change was made. From January 1966 until the end of GC steam, the remaining steam diagrams were rostered for
Colwick Black Fives on out and home workings.

 

[Magdalia]

A couple of years ago, I started a thread about the Marylebone to Nottingham trains in 1965/66 (GC London Nottingham trains 1960s),vwhich produced plenty of interesting information.

For reference, that discussion is here:

Britannias on the GC Marylebone line in 1965

A correction to my first post..... Sightings on 9/10/65 were both at Northwick Park, not Wembley - so definitely ALL the sightings were on 14.38 and 16.38 Nottingham trains. Sorry for the confusion. # # # A couple of years ago, I started a thread about the Marylebone to Nottingham trains in...

www.railforums.co.uk

Eight Britannias were moved to 2D (ex 85C) Banbury at the beginning of October, but only remained there until the beginning of January 1966.

The four that I saw were amongst these eight; 70046 and 70054 at Wembley, both 9/10/65, 70050 at Northwick Park on 23/10/65 and 70045 at Wembley on 6/11/65.

I have another source, from Rugby, who observed some GC trains in the week starting 04/10/65.

70052 worked the 1715 from Nottingham Vic on 4th, 5th and 9th, with an unidentified Britannia on 7th.

70051 worked the 1638 to Nottingham Vic on 4th but this was a BR type 2 on 6th and 7th. 70051 also worked the 1815 Nottingham Vic-Rugby on 5th.

There are very few records from this source for the rest of 1965 but 70046 did work 1715 from Nottingham Vic on 18/12/65.

I have a record of 112 Nottingham train workings between the beginning of January and late August 1966 (that's about 25% of the trains that ran in that time). All these were worked by Black Fives. I'll post some details of those workings in a separate post in due course.

I am looking forward to seeing that. My Rugby source also has 7 observations of 1715 up and 6 of 1638 down in 1966.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Fascinating, I've always loved the Great Central and apart from the LBSCR (naturally), I think it's my favourite railway.

I've always wondered, what was the main passenger flows for the Great Central? I would imagine the most busiest part was probably Alyesbury/High Wycombe to Marylebone.

 

[Martello]

For reference, that discussion is here:

Britannias on the GC Marylebone line in 1965

A correction to my first post..... Sightings on 9/10/65 were both at Northwick Park, not Wembley - so definitely ALL the sightings were on 14.38 and 16.38 Nottingham trains. Sorry for the confusion. # # # A couple of years ago, I started a thread about the Marylebone to Nottingham trains in...

www.railforums.co.uk

I have another source, from Rugby, who observed some GC trains in the week starting 04/10/65.

70052 worked the 1715 from Nottingham Vic on 4th, 5th and 9th, with an unidentified Britannia on 7th.

70051 worked the 1638 to Nottingham Vic on 4th but this was a BR type 2 on 6th and 7th. 70051 also worked the 1815 Nottingham Vic-Rugby on 5th.

There are very few records from this source for the rest of 1965 but 70046 did work 1715 from Nottingham Vic on 18/12/65.


I am looking forward to seeing that. My Rugby source also has 7 observations of 1715 up and 6 of 1638 down in 1966.

Thanks, that's a great contribution. So now we know that six of the eight Brits definitely worked to Marylebone.

Any idea what the returning (northbound) working was for the 17.15? Possibly the 00.15 Manchester sleeper or the 01.40 passenger & newspapers?

I will post my summary of 1966 trains, but I'm still tidying it up as more information comes to light.

Fascinating, I've always loved the Great Central and apart from the LBSCR (naturally), I think it's my favourite railway.

I've always wondered, what was the main passenger flows for the Great Central? I would imagine the most busiest part was probably Alyesbury/High Wycombe to Marylebone.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I've always wondered, what was the main passenger flows for the Great Central? I would imagine the most busiest part was probably Alyesbury/High Wycombe to Marylebone.

The local service on the GC&GW joint line presumably. Commuter runs to and from High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Gerrards Cross and Denham to Marylebone.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The local service on the GC&GW joint line presumably. Commuter runs to and from High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Gerrards Cross and Denham to Marylebone.

I wonder which had more custom, the GWR or GC services.

 

[RT4038]

I wonder which had more custom, the GWR or GC services.

There were no GW suburban trains, so the GC services must have had more custom. (Post war at least). The GW had the bulk of the main line trains (probably with more custom than the few GC expresses operated that way) and a few intermediate trains stopping at some of the more important suburban stations, probably more for parcels traffic than passengers.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There were no GW suburban trains, so the GC services must have had more custom. (Post war at least). The GW had the bulk of the main line trains (probably with more custom than the few GC expresses operated that way) and a few intermediate trains stopping at some of the more important suburban stations, probably more for parcels traffic than passengers.

That's interesting. What made the Great Central run expresses via Harrow instead the Joint Line? Given that it was two tracks for much of the way.

 

[Martello]

That's interesting. What made the Great Central run expresses via Harrow instead the Joint Line? Given that it was two tracks for much of the way.

From what I've read, the GC shifted as much as it could to the GW&GC joint line in 1906 and it wasn't until LNER days that some of the longer distance trains were routed via the Met&GC joint line. My guess is that it might have been cheaper for the LNER to run the trains over the Met line than the GW&GC joint but I don't know anything about how the costs were shared. After nationalisation, it must have been a bit of an anachronism for the Eastern Region to be sending its expresses over a Western Region main line.

Even though the GC passenger trains all seem to have been taken off the GW&GC joint line by the early '60s, the 11.15 Nottingham to Neasden empty newspaper vans continued to run via the GW&GC joint right to the end - though I did notice a picture on Flickr of that train passing through Harrow on the Hill on 02/07/1966 hauled by 45324. I saw it on the 16.38 return working later in the day.

I also recently came across a photo of a K1 on a mineral train (coal I assume) at West Ruislip on 1 June 1963. So far, it's the only picture that I have seen of a GC freight train running via the GW&GC joint line but the working timetable for around that period shows that there were several day time and night time paths for freights to/from Neasden.

The addition of the extra pair of 'fast lines' on the Met&GC from Harrow to Moor Park wasn't completed until 1962 and it must have been a right pain running 'express' trains over the double track shared with Met electrics.

 

[RT4038]

From what I've read, the GC shifted as much as it could to the GW&GC joint line in 1906 and it wasn't until LNER days that some of the longer distance trains were routed via the Met&GC joint line. My guess is that it might have been cheaper for the LNER to run the trains over the Met line than the GW&GC joint but I don't know anything about how the costs were shared. After nationalisation, it must have been a bit of an anachronism for the Eastern Region to be sending its expresses over a Western Region main line.

Even though the GC passenger trains all seem to have been taken off the GW&GC joint line by the early '60s, the 11.15 Nottingham to Neasden empty newspaper vans continued to run via the GW&GC joint right to the end - though I did notice a picture on Flickr of that train passing through Harrow on the Hill on 02/07/1966 hauled by 45324. I saw it on the 16.38 return working later in the day.

I also recently came across a photo of a K1 on a mineral train (coal I assume) at West Ruislip on 1 June 1963. So far, it's the only picture that I have seen of a GC freight train running via the GW&GC joint line but the working timetable for around that period shows that there were several day time and night time paths for freights to/from Neasden.

The addition of the extra pair of 'fast lines' on the Met&GC from Harrow to Moor Park wasn't completed until 1962 and it must have been a right pain running 'express' trains over the double track shared with Met electrics.

Wasn't the use of the Joint line by GC trains mostly (slow moving) freight trains , as there were no lay by lines for overtaking by passenger trains between Quainton Road and London? After the expresses were withdrawn in 1960, all passenger trains ran via Met line, although specials would go via the Joint line. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) there was any/easy connection for freight trains to Neasden yard from the north via the Harrow line, nor connection to the Dudding Hill freight curve.

The relief tracks between Harrow and Moor Park were completed shortly after the attenuation of GC line passenger services took away most of the reason for their construction! If they hadn't been built at that time, it is unlikely they would have been a priority since.

 

[150219]

I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) there was any/easy connection for freight trains to Neasden yard from the north via the Harrow line, nor connection to the Dudding Hill freight curve.

Brent North Junction box closed on 21/05/67, which allowed trains to/from the Met to access Neasden North Junction.

Neasden North Junction box (which closed on 15/10/72) then had a connection to/from Neasden Midland Junction (and Neasden MPD) via Neasden South Junction.

There were timetables freight services operating to/from Cricklewood to the LU Met Line freight sidings/depots via this route.

 

[Taunton]

It does seem that long ago more expresses went via Aylesbury than High Wycombe. The LNER 1939 timetable for expresses from Marylebone to Sheffield and beyond shows them routing:

0230 - Aylesbury *
0845 - Aylesbury
1000 - High Wycombe
1215 - High Wycombe
1520 - Aylesbury *
1655 - Aylesbury *
1700 - Aylesbury
1820 - High Wycombe *
2205 - Aylesbury

The ones I have asterisked were nonstop to beyond Woodford Halse, but specifically state in the timetable whether "via Aylesbury" or "via High Wycombe". I suspect that commercially there were more passengers northbound from Harrow and Aylesbury than from High Wycombe (from which, looking at the above, there were no departures after lunchtime. The two close departures in the evening peak down the Met line must have been a considerable nuisance.

For freight, the GC route never handled a large traffic flow to London. The majority of the considerable flow it had south from Annesley, later becoming the "Windcutter" fast freight services, ran to Woodford, then (after remarshalling) to Banbury, and finally (after remarshalling yet again there) onto the Western, or even through to the Southern.

Although I did read a letter in a 1947 Railway Magazine, during the post-war winter with bitter weather and fuel shortages, about a moment in the morning peak at Rickmansworth. An up commuter service was delayed yet again, eventually the signals came off and finally hove into view not their service but a grimy O4 with a coal train. As it slowly passed the disgruntled comments turned into cheering and applause.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It does seem that long ago more expresses went via Aylesbury than High Wycombe. The LNER 1939 timetable for expresses from Marylebone to Sheffield and beyond shows them routing:

If hypothetically you wanted to travel from High Wycombe to Sheffield in 1939 avoiding London, what route would you be offered?

One of today's routes is Chiltern to Banbury and then Cross Country direct to Sheffield via Derby.

 

[Taunton]

If hypothetically you wanted to travel from High Wycombe to Sheffield in 1939 avoiding London, what route would you be offered?

One of today's routes is Chiltern to Banbury and then Cross Country direct to Sheffield via Derby.

The GWR was still operating Maidenhead to Aylesbury via Bourne End, High Wycombe and Princes Risborough, giving useful connections onwards. Into BR days WR locos had a subshed (from Slough shed) at Aylesbury for this line. Via Banbury, or even via Princes Risborough and Oxford, would be an alternative, into the several cross-country expresses that went this way onto the GC line.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

It does seem that long ago more expresses went via Aylesbury than High Wycombe. The LNER 1939 timetable for expresses from Marylebone to Sheffield and beyond shows them routing:

0230 - Aylesbury *
0845 - Aylesbury
1000 - High Wycombe
1215 - High Wycombe
1520 - Aylesbury *
1655 - Aylesbury *
1700 - Aylesbury
1820 - High Wycombe *
2205 - Aylesbury

The ones I have asterisked were nonstop to beyond Woodford Halse, but specifically state in the timetable whether "via Aylesbury" or "via High Wycombe". I suspect that commercially there were more passengers northbound from Harrow and Aylesbury than from High Wycombe (from which, looking at the above, there were no departures after lunchtime. The two close departures in the evening peak down the Met line must have been a considerable nuisance.

The LNER showed little interest in developing the GC London Extension, having been saddled with the GC's debt incurred in construction and one of the factors in its finacial woes. Running via Aylesbury reduced train miles and working expenses. It could have been developed into a competitive high speed line - I always wonder why it didn't close some of the hopeless wayside stations as it ruthlessly did on the ECML in the '30s to speed up services.

 

[RT4038]

The LNER showed little interest in developing the GC London Extension, having been saddled with the GC's debt incurred in construction and one of the factors in its finacial woes. Running via Aylesbury reduced train miles and working expenses. It could have been developed into a competitive high speed line - I always wonder why it didn't close some of the hopeless wayside stations as it ruthlessly did on the ECML in the '30s to speed up services.

Did the LNER 'ruthlessly' close hopeless wayside stations on the ECML in the 30s? They closed lots of branch lines, and the wayside stations on the York-Scarborough line, but I think it was the ER that did the ECML intermediate stations?

It does seem that long ago more expresses went via Aylesbury than High Wycombe. The LNER 1939 timetable for expresses from Marylebone to Sheffield and beyond shows them routing:

0230 - Aylesbury *
0845 - Aylesbury
1000 - High Wycombe
1215 - High Wycombe
1520 - Aylesbury *
1655 - Aylesbury *
1700 - Aylesbury
1820 - High Wycombe *
2205 - Aylesbury

The ones I have asterisked were nonstop to beyond Woodford Halse, but specifically state in the timetable whether "via Aylesbury" or "via High Wycombe". I suspect that commercially there were more passengers northbound from Harrow and Aylesbury than from High Wycombe (from which, looking at the above, there were no departures after lunchtime. The two close departures in the evening peak down the Met line must have been a considerable nuisance.

For freight, the GC route never handled a large traffic flow to London. The majority of the considerable flow it had south from Annesley, later becoming the "Windcutter" fast freight services, ran to Woodford, then (after remarshalling) to Banbury, and finally (after remarshalling yet again there) onto the Western, or even through to the Southern.

By the 50s it was only the 12h15 from Marylebone that went via High Wycombe, and nothing of note in the opposite direction.

 

[Taunton]

The LNER showed little interest in developing the GC London Extension, having been saddled with the GC's debt incurred in construction and one of the factors in its finacial woes.

Given the immediate financial basket case of the overall London Extension, one wonders how just a few years later they managed to get more capital for their half share of the GW&GC joint line, expensively done with flying junctions which must have had little use. The link at the northern end back from the Joint Line back to the GC must have never had more than a handful of trains per day.

Richard Hardy, railway author and among others onetime Woodford shedmaster, wrote that the island platforms at each intermediate station, with the tracks splayed around them on entry and exit, mitigated against high speed running.

 

[Martello]

Neasden North Junction box (which closed on 15/10/72) then had a connection to/from Neasden Midland Junction (and Neasden MPD) via Neasden South Junction.

There are signal box diagrams on the web for the 'boxes at Neasden:
Neasden South Jc: https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php/?id= 254
Neasden North Jc: https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php/?id= 237
Brent North Jc: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E499.gif
Wembley Hill: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E437.gif
Blind Lane: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E438.gif

It was possible to come off the Up GC main line at Brent North Jc and go into the sidings at Neasden or take the connection to Neasden Jc on the Midland Rly.

The Neasden North Jc diagram is fascinating as it includes the stadium station loop.

The LNER 1939 timetable for expresses from Marylebone to Sheffield and beyond shows them routing

Thanks, I don't have any timetables for the line, pre BR days, and I was interested to see your post.

By the 50s it was only the 12h15 from Marylebone that went via High Wycombe, and nothing of note in the opposite direction.

I thought the 6.18 p.m. down Master Cutler always used the GW & GC joint line, is that right?

For freight, the GC route never handled a large traffic flow to London.

I've just bought Stanley Jenkins' 1978 Oakwood Press book about the joint line, in which he says that, pre-war
"Freight traffic was shared more or less evenly between the two companies. There were perhaps twenty-five goods trains each way on weekdays. Both companies provided their own pick-up goods trains...." - that was news to me.

 

[RT4038]

I thought the 6.18 p.m. down Master Cutler always used the GW & GC joint line, is that right?

Yes it did, non-stop.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yet another fascinating thread about the Great Central. It seems to be a railway we think we know lots about but in reality there’s still a huge wealth of information to learn.

It’s quite surprising that most trains ran via Aylesbury. I always had romantic visions of waiting on a platform in Denham or Gerrards Cross or somwhere, and seeing a fascinating mix of GWR/GCR expressed come pounding through. It makes you infer why so little work was done initially to connect the GCR to the Met. Surely some Met stations could have been widened to accommodate through roads for GC trains? Was quadrupling into Buckinghamshire never considered from the outset? Also interesting to hear about the speed restrictions on the approaches into stations. Were the radii really that tight? If they were, I can’t see how adding an extra pair of outer express lines would have eased the curvature.

The LNER’s understandable lack of interest with the GCR is why I’ve said previously the London Extension, at least, should have been merged with the GWR. Surely they could have made better use with it. I could see most passenger services to Marylebone ceasing, leaving Rugby, Leicester and Nottingham served by cross country expresses to the Coast - with the majority of traffic being freight towards Banbury. Marylebone could have been handed to the Met.

It’s becoming clear now why the GCR was so slow. Compared to the other lines.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Yet another fascinating thread about the Great Central. It seems to be a railway we think we know lots about but in reality there’s still a huge wealth of information to learn.

It’s quite surprising that most trains ran via Aylesbury. I always had romantic visions of waiting on a platform in Denham or Gerrards Cross or somwhere, and seeing a fascinating mix of GWR/GCR expressed come pounding through. It makes you infer why so little work was done initially to connect the GCR to the Met. Surely some Met stations could have been widened to accommodate through roads for GC trains? Was quadrupling into Buckinghamshire never considered from the outset? Also interesting to hear about the speed restrictions on the approaches into stations. Were the radii really that tight? If they were, I can’t see how adding an extra pair of outer express lines would have eased the curvature.

The LNER’s understandable lack of interest with the GCR is why I’ve said previously the London Extension, at least, should have been merged with the GWR. Surely they could have made better use with it. I could see most passenger services to Marylebone ceasing, leaving Rugby, Leicester and Nottingham served by cross country expresses to the Coast - with the majority of traffic being freight towards Banbury. Marylebone could have been handed to the Met.

It’s becoming clear now why the GCR was so slow. Compared to the other lines.

The London Extension came in at 4x the budget (nothing new under the sun!) - hence the modest nature of Marylebone station - so there were limited funds to make any improvements to the Met. Sir Edward Watkin had also stepped down as chairman before the extension opened due to ill-health, and relations between the two companies steadily deteriorated thereafter. The Met line was not ideal either, being heavily congested and steeply graded through the Chilterns. Under the leadership of Sam Fay, the financial postion of the GC improved and the alternative joint line with the GWR was developed instead.

The London Extension was extremely well-engineered with sweeping curves and gentle gradients but hampered by the speed restriction around the island platform of the many wayside stations. As conceived, there would have also been unrestricted fast lines at these stations (for which sufficient land was bought) but never built. If the LNER had been in a better financial position it could have closed many of these hopeless wayside stations (as it ruthlessly did on the ECML in the '30s) and developed a true high speed line. Nevertheless, in the '30s journey times by express service to Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield were very competitive with the LMS Midland route.

 

[Martello]

The London Extension came in at 4x the budget (nothing new under the sun!) - hence the modest nature of Marylebone station - so there were limited funds to make any improvements to the Met. Sir Edward Watkin had also stepped down as chairman before the extension opened due to ill-health, and relations between the two companies steadily deteriorated thereafter. The Met line was not ideal either, being heavily congested and steeply graded through the Chilterns. Under the leadership of Sam Fay, the financial postion of the GC improved and the alternative joint line with the GWR was developed instead.

The London Extension was extremely well-engineered with sweeping curves and gentle gradients but hampered by the speed restriction around the island platform of the many wayside stations. As conceived, there would have also been unrestricted fast lines at these stations (for which sufficient land was bought) but never built. If the LNER had been in a better financial position it could have closed many of these hopeless wayside stations (as it ruthlessly did on the ECML in the '30s) and developed a true high speed line. Nevertheless, in the '30s journey times by express service to Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield were very competitive with the LMS Midland route.

You're right, it was extremely well built. They found out HOW well when they tried to demolish some of those viaducts built with engineering blue bricks!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The London Extension came in at 4x the budget (nothing new under the sun!) - hence the modest nature of Marylebone station - so there were limited funds to make any improvements to the Met. Sir Edward Watkin had also stepped down as chairman before the extension opened due to ill-health, and relations between the two companies steadily deteriorated thereafter. The Met line was not ideal either, being heavily congested and steeply graded through the Chilterns. Under the leadership of Sam Fay, the financial postion of the GC improved and the alternative joint line with the GWR was developed instead.

The London Extension was extremely well-engineered with sweeping curves and gentle gradients but hampered by the speed restriction around the island platform of the many wayside stations. As conceived, there would have also been unrestricted fast lines at these stations (for which sufficient land was bought) but never built. If the LNER had been in a better financial position it could have closed many of these hopeless wayside stations (as it ruthlessly did on the ECML in the '30s) and developed a true high speed line. Nevertheless, in the '30s journey times by express service to Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield were very competitive with the LMS Midland route.

I see, interesting. Perhaps a better platform layout would have been to have a simple bay platform design, that could be easily converted into being two islands with outer passing loops. That said, the GC's unique island layout is quite charming.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

That said, the GC's unique island layout is quite charming.

It was a different design on the Joint line with the GWR via High Wycombe. On that line there were platform loops with the fast lines running in the middle. At Beaconsfield and High Wycombe the gaps are still there whilst at Gerrards Cross and others, one of the platforms has been extended out across two of the previous tracks.