Britrail Pass at Tottenham Court Road

[classicmds]

I know this topic is discussed regularly - I previously posted about similar problems on London Overground - but just starting a new thread to report experience yesterday, and with some updated links.

Yesterday i tried to exit the Elizabeth Line at Tottenham Court Road using a Britrail Pass. The gateline agent said it was not valid as this was a London Underground station. i explained to him that Britrail was valid on National Rail Services, including the Elizabeth Line. He pointed to his T-Shirt showing the TFL roundel and said this showed it was a London Underground station. I explained his T-Shirt actually showed the TfL logo, and TfL was the franchise holder of the Elizabeth line, which was a national rail service. Although the station was managed by TfL it housed a national rail stop. He said he would let me out but would not let me back in again. i knew I needed to come back in shortly so I said I would remain on the other side of the gate until he could bring a manager. He refused at first, but eventually conceded.

The manager came and did confirm Britrail is valid. I aksed him to confirm that it was ok to access the Elizabeth Line again coming back in. Strangely though he had just confirmed, he now said it wasn't a national rail station "so it depends." I said I was specifically asking about Britrail validity and he said it would depend where I was going - and would only be valid if I was interchanging to another national rail line. Here he seemed to be confused with having a National raii ticket that allowed LU transfer. I said I was asking about accessing National Rail services at this station. He said it was not a national rail station so no, this was not allowed. He pointed to a poster that said National Rail tickets cannot be collected at the station. I said that I was not asking about collecting national rail tickets, but using a national rail service. He then said that as long as I only used it to connect to other National Rail services it was valid. That wasn''t quite correct (you could just ride the Elizabeth Line between Abbey Wood and Paddington if you wanted) but there wasn't any further I could go with him.

This webpage from the Britrail site provides explicit confirmation of validity on LO and Elizabeth Line:

FAQs - BritRail

Find answers to common questions about BritRail Passes. Learn about eligibility, booking, travel guidelines, and more to ensure a seamless journey acr

www.britrail.com

In fact, Britrail is positively promoting the idea that you can use National Rail in London on Thameslink, LO, and EL: https://www.britrail.com/plan-your-trip/be-inspired/blog/crossing-london-with-britrail/

In one sense I understand why TfL staff are not familiar with the situation; national rail passes are rare and everything about the typical experience of running the station and TfL branding would lead you to believe that the passes are not valid. One easy fix would be for barcode readers to be used at central London Elizabeth line stations, which would allow National Rail pass users access. I'm sure theres a technical reason why this might not be possible; but it would seem to provide a fix.

I think Britrail/Rail Delivery Group should put more pressure on TfL to adopt better training or the technology that allows this. If they are promoting use of National Rail in central London, they ought to make sure that the customers are not thwarted in their attempts to use the service they have advertised.

 

[Jan Mayen]

A bit off topic, but I wonder how much extra an All Line Rover would coat if it included London UnderGround services.

 

[Farigiraf]

A bit off topic, but I wonder how much extra an All Line Rover would coat if it included London UnderGround services.

Presumably the same price as a day travelcard (multiplied to fit the amount of days the rover is valid), discounted a bit as Elizabeth Line and overground is already included in the ticket.

 

[rg177]

Interestingly, I used an Interrail at Tottenham Court Road on Thursday with no issues. I just asked to be let through to use the Elizabeth Line. I mistakenly assumed this meant that staff knew what they were doing!

For reference, there's also an FOI request on the TfL site which is explicit about validity. I had this at the ready in case of any issues:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

 

[classicmds]

Interestingly, I used an Interrail at Tottenham Court Road on Thursday with no issues. I just asked to be let through to use the Elizabeth Line. I mistakenly assumed this meant that staff knew what they were doing!

For reference, there's also an FOI request on the TfL site which is explicit about validity. I had this at the ready in case of any issues:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

That's a useful link.

I've previously used Britrail at Tottehnam Court Road (and other central London EL stations) without issue. I think it all depends on the person running the gate.

Given that this central London area is the one with most likely confusion re: national rail passes, I think interail, All Line Rover, and Britrail passes would really benefit from having the Central London validity clearly printed on them. On Britrail pass it prints/displays the "boundary stations" but this means little to someone running a gate primarily used for LU in Central London. This would be a way that would help passengers, but also help out the gate staff who I don't entirely blame for bad training.

 

[Watershed]

I've used Interrail passes many times on the Elizabeth line (both the "core" and outer sections) and have only twice encountered any issues. In both cases I was using the "LU" gatelines to enter or exit Liverpool Street, as it happens. I was ultimately let in both times.

I raised a complaint in both instances but received the usual fob-off response from TfL.

 

[rg177]

I think the problem with printing validity is that on some tickets (eg. a Global interrail) you'd need a full booklet stapled to it as there's so much to cover. The app might be easier - perhaps you could flick across from the barcode and be presented with a (admittedly) long list.

As you've seen by the FOI - staff have been briefed. Whether they've paid attention to it or its been advertised well enough is another matter.

 

[classicmds]

I think the problem with printing validity is that on some tickets (eg. a Global interrail) you'd need a full booklet stapled to it as there's so much to cover. The app might be easier - perhaps you could flick across from the barcode and be presented with a (admittedly) long list.

As you've seen by the FOI - staff have been briefed. Whether they've paid attention to it or its been advertised well enough is another matter.

Yes, I was thinking only about the Central London stations where there is likely to be the most confusion. i.e. where there is a shared ticket gate between National Rail and non-National Rail services.

Is there are other case on the National Rail network where this happens other than EL and LO? (Someone can correct me but I'm not sure it happens on Thameslink?)

So something like: "Valid for use on all London Overground and Elizabeth Line services. Holder permitted to enter and exit shared National Rail and London Underground stations if using Elizabeth Line or London Overground services. Not valid on London Underground services."

 

[Somewhere]

It should be a case that, anything with a TfL roundal or a double-arrow symbol are equally valid at those stations that have TfL and National Rail services.
It's really not difficult (or rather, it obviously is)

 

[Benjwri]

I’ve only ever used Interrail at Paddington Elizabeth Line, they’ve never had a problem there. Can’t say I’ve used it anywhere else, always going to Gatwick to St Pancras, so no EL hate line to pass through for Thameslink.

 

[greyman42]

He pointed to his T-Shirt showing the TFL roundel and said this showed it was a London Underground station.

What it says on his shirt has nothing to do with the matter, he should know that.

 

[scarby]

I have been using BritRail over the past week with no problems. The bar code works perfectly to open the gates and staff on trains simply read the barcode with their reader in a second and that was that.

But I knew that at Tottenham Court Road I would encounter something as I've had an issue there before with Interrail.

Of course to begin with there are no barcode readers so you are dependent on staff to let you through.

I held up the pass on my phone at the barrier and the staff member then inspected it carefully (which is fine). But she then said "You can't use that on the Underground."

I said: "But I don't want to use it on the Underground, I want to use it on the Elizabeth Line - it's National Rail." (not sure if my last point is technically correct?)

She said: "No, it's a grey area," and to her credit then let me through.

On one hand it worked out but it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable - what if I were to have an encounter at another Elizabeth Line station and they refused me?

Indeed because of this on my journey I travelled to Abbey Wood, crossed the footbridge and then took a service to Plumstead rather than try to exit at Woolwich Elizabeth Line. It's a toss-up which of these is quickest to where I am staying but still the point stands that there shouldn't be any issue.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I said: "But I don't want to use it on the Underground, I want to use it on the Elizabeth Line - it's National Rail." (not sure if my last point is technically correct?)

She said: "No, it's a grey area," and to her credit then let me through.

It's absolutely correct, not just technically correct, to say Elizabeth Line comes under National Rail!

 

[TUC]

Just how well informed does a member of gateline staff have to be to know that Elizabeth line stations are National Rail, even if managed by TfL? It's not very hard to understand is it?

 

[redreni]

Just how well informed does a member of gateline staff have to be to know that Elizabeth line stations are National Rail, even if managed by TfL? It's not very hard to understand is it?

You wouldn't think so, for staff. But it obviously is.

My general view is all National Rail operators should be required to display the double arrow, prominently, as part of the branding/identity of the trains they run and any stations they operate. That's not to say the double arrow couldn't appear alongside another symbol or logo such as the TfL roundel for London Overground and the Elizabeth Line, or the MerseyRail symbol etc.

Perhaps that would help passengers and staff understand? Perhaps TfL don't want that.

 

[sor]

Interestingly, I used an Interrail at Tottenham Court Road on Thursday with no issues. I just asked to be let through to use the Elizabeth Line. I mistakenly assumed this meant that staff knew what they were doing!

For reference, there's also an FOI request on the TfL site which is explicit about validity. I had this at the ready in case of any issues:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

I'd hope the briefing that TfL have attached there has since been updated to cover mobile interrail passes, which of course need none of that faff to be valid.

 

[scarby]

My general view is all National Rail operators should be required to display the double arrow, prominently, as part of the branding/identity of the trains they run and any stations they operate. That's not to say the double arrow couldn't appear alongside another symbol or logo such as the TfL roundel for London Overground and the Elizabeth Line, or the MerseyRail symbol etc.

Perhaps that would help passengers and staff understand? Perhaps TfL don't want that.

Indeed, that is why I was unsure myself even if I did think I was correct.

When you get on the trains they are branded as if it were part of the Underground. The route diagrams posted in the trains display the double arrows over stations such as Abbey Wood and Reading as if you were coming off the "Underground" and onto National Rail.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps that would help passengers and staff understand? Perhaps TfL don't want that.

If staff can't read a briefing and understand, no amount of branding is going to help. TfL almost certainly wants people to think LO and the Elizabeth Line are like tube lines and not anything like the 'normal' railway.

 

[greyman42]

TfL almost certainly wants people to think LO and the Elizabeth Line are like tube lines and not anything like the 'normal' railway.

I don't doubt what you say, but why?

 

[redreni]

I don't doubt what you say, but why?

I doubt they'd want to advertise that they might sometimes be on the hook for delay repay claims against expensive tickets on long journeys.

They also regard national rail tickets as a massive pain and prefer it if people don't use them. Oyster and Contactless PAYG is their baby and they want everybody to use that.

 

[jon0844]

I doubt they'd want to advertise that they might sometimes be on the hook for delay repay claims against expensive tickets on long journeys.

They also regard national rail tickets as a massive pain and prefer it if people don't use them. Oyster and Contactless PAYG is their baby and they want everybody to use that.

And despite some teething problems with the Elizabeth Line, both this and LO are usually very well run and TfL wants all the credit because it reflects well on London. Can't say I blame them for that, but staff need to know the facts.

 

[Taunton]

I don't doubt what you say, but why?

I suspect because of "One Size Fits All" training courses. Are the staff dedicated to Liz stations, or can they be assigned to any Underground station?

 

[Sonic1234]

Nearly everyone uses Oyster or Contactless, and the few paper tickets that are used are Travelcards, so TfL gateline staff rarely see anything which isn't one of these. Inexperience, as much as incompetence, is the problem.

I've had issues breaking my journey at TfL gatelines when allowed to do so (using National Rail services behind a LU gateline). They have no experience of it. At least at National Rail stations the attitude is orange paper = OK. TfL have the attitude of if the gate says no, it's not valid.

If any training is offered, it's quickly forgotten due to a) low staff interest and b) rarely seeing unusual ticket types. When you complain to customer services, the lack of interest shows. I'm still wondering what a "special offer promotional break-of-journey ticket type" is, but they were very sorry it wasn't accepted!

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Once again, this makes a nonsense of the 'Every Journey Matters' stuff that TfL is so fond of. The issues here are deep rooted, at least back to the formation of the Undergound Combine 110 or so years ago, when the idea that 'the tube is different, ie better' than the main line took hold.

Unfortunately, like all large organisations, there is always a risk that senior management start believing their own propaganda! TfL should be compelled to have a proper mystery shopper exercise every year, including examples such as this, that they report to their Board to show where there is room for improvement. There is always room for improvement!