BTP Looking for boys who placed concrete on track at Croston (between Preston and Ormskirk)

[vikingdriver]

They have been identified.

 

[Peter C]

They have been identified.

Just wondering, do you have any links to show this? Thanks.

-Peter

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thank goodness nobody was hurt

 

[vikingdriver]

Just wondering, do you have any links to show this? Thanks.

-Peter

Police are arranging interviews with three boys after concrete placed onto a railway line was struck by a train.
On Friday (August 30) British Transport Police (BTP) released images of three boys after concrete debris was placed on the line near Ridley Lane in Croston at 5.20pm on Wednesday, August 14.

https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/bo...-on-railway-tracks-in-rural-chorley-1-9970377

 

[Peter C]

https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/bo...-on-railway-tracks-in-rural-chorley-1-9970377

Thanks very much.

-Peter

 

[Jonny]

There's also this offence:

Doing or omitting anything to endanger passengers by railway.
Whosoever, by any unlawful act, or by any wilful omission or neglect, shall endanger or cause to be endangered the safety of any person conveyed or being in or upon a railway, or shall aid or assist therein, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years

Which is still used to this day.

Also there is the more general Aggravated Criminal Damage (aggravation based on the likelihood of life being recklessly or wilfully endangered). That actually applies regardless of whether it is one's own property (simple criminal damage applies only to that of others). I would go for Aggravated Criminal Damage or wilful endangerment. Any of them are punishable with potential life imprisonment depending on the full circumstances.

Did they have any CCTV images of this incident?

In the post-article link. The quality is far from ideal, but they might be recognisable.

https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/boys-wanted-after-concrete-slabs-16840033

Should this be treated as attempted murder?

Other charges are available that are easier to prove and carry an equivalent maximum penalty. It is better to look towards invoking those.

 

[Antman]

There was a similar incident on Tramlink with a tram derailed by an object placed on the line.

 

[BC]

You know as young slightly bored lads we'd occasionally stick a 10p flat on the rail with chewing gum and let a coal train iron it incredibly flat, mainly so we could have a ten penny the size of a saucer. It was stupid yes and really not something to do but even then we decided that doing it near a switch was bad, in case it got stuck in the workings. But blocks of concrete? None of us were ever that stupid we knew that would potentially cause major issues and I cannot think anyone wanted to actually derail a train. These guys knew what they were doing and I suspect they are going to get more than just a little slap on the wrist if it happend six times...

 

[Antman]

You know as young slightly bored lads we'd occasionally stick a 10p flat on the rail with chewing gum and let a coal train iron it incredibly flat, mainly so we could have a ten penny the size of a saucer. It was stupid yes and really not something to do but even then we decided that doing it near a switch was bad, in case it got stuck in the workings. But blocks of concrete? None of us were ever that stupid we knew that would potentially cause major issues and I cannot think anyone wanted to actually derail a train. These guys knew what they were doing and I suspect they are going to get more than just a little slap on the wrist if it happend six times...

Likewise my mates and I got up to some mischief on the rail network when we were kids, I won't go into details for fear of giving today's youngsters ideas, but we would never have dreamt of doing anything like that.

 

[mpthomson]

Yes it should be. It's what would potentially happen if you or I did the same thing on the M6

No it shouldn’t and no it isn’t.

 

[Kingspanner]

No it shouldn’t and no it isn’t.

Well, you say that but a leading case was the "killing of David Wilkie"

 

[cactustwirly]

https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/boys-wanted-after-concrete-slabs-16840033

Should this be treated as attempted murder?

No because no such offence has been committed.
It would be unlawful act Manslaughter if someone was killed, but they weren't, so probably just criminal damage?

 

[cactustwirly]

"In English criminal law, attempted murder is the crime of simultaneously preparing to commit an unlawful killing and having a specific intention to cause the death of a human being under the Queen's Peace. The phrase "more than merely preparatory" is specified by the Criminal Attempts Act 1981 to denote the fact that preparation for a crime by itself does not constitute an "attempted crime"."

To make that charge stick, it would have to be proved they intended to kill people which would be difficult. I don't think an act of extreme reckless alone is sufficient (otherwise we wouldn't need the charge of causing death by dangerous driving).

The children didn't intend to kill anyone...
They were reckless yes, but they are not murderers

 

[Antman]

Intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. They’d charge bargain it to manslaughter (not that this officially happens in the UK...)

The problem is - and I grew up not far away, the places are full of stupid morons with no prospects and time and benefits money on their side (and an unhealthy drink drugs habit). So they waste their time thinking of dangerous things to do for kicks. Most they’ll get is a suspended sentence. No way are they doing time. Prisons are full. And if they are young enough to be eligible six months of club 18-21 YOI duty, the places are already full of underage drug dealers, robbers and gang members

 

[farleigh]

Well, you say that but a leading case was the "killing of David Wilkie"

The swimmer??

 

[Kingspanner]

The swimmer??

I suddenly thought that too, but its one that members who recall the Miner's strike will remember

 

[Kingspanner]

No because no such offence has been committed.
It would be unlawful act Manslaughter if someone was killed, but they weren't, so probably just criminal damage?

There is also " Doing or omitting anything to endanger passengers by railway" contrary to Section 34 of the (truly marvellous) Offences Against The Person Act 1861. Punishable by up to two years imprisonment, no intent needs to be proved.
(As an aside, my favourite is Section 36 "Obstructing or assaulting a clergyman or other minister in the discharge of his duties". Apparently violent disorder at funerals was commonplace in the 1800s)

 

[Red1980]

No it shouldn’t and no it isn’t.

The exact softly softly approach that has lead to numerous miscarriages of justice and people walking amongst us that really shouldn't. Tell that to the families of those potentially killed by these morons.

 

[Kingspanner]

The exact softly softly approach that has lead to numerous miscarriages of justice and people walking amongst us that really shouldn't. Tell that to the families of those potentially killed by these morons.

Rather than make that sweeping and unsupported statement, would you like to cite specific cases which could encourage further posting? I am genuinely interested in the cases that influence your thinking.

 

[Red1980]

Rather than make that sweeping and unsupported statement, would you like to cite specific cases which could encourage further posting? I am genuinely interested in the cases that influence your thinking.

No to be honest. Unfortunately there's a hundred and one examples of it if you care to go and look and not just the high profile cases.

There's even 2 cases Railway related in the past 6-7 years where the law has proven to be a farce.

Happy reading.

 

[68000]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenock_rail_accident

 

[Llama]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7127385.stm

That's a pretty high-profile one from recent times.

 

[geoffk]

In BR days they used to have 'tidy days' to remove material from the trackside to stop theft or vandalism. Anything that cannot be removed was secured in some way. Too much crap left at the trackside these days IMHO

Nothing to do in school holidays?

 

[sprunt]

Well, you say that but a leading case was the "killing of David Wilkie"

Deliberately dropping a concrete block onto a particular vehicle isn't analogous to recklessly leaving concrete debris on the carriageway.

 

[al78]

Deliberately dropping a concrete block onto a particular vehicle isn't analogous to recklessly leaving concrete debris on the carriageway.

It is in the sense that both are malicious actions that can lead to death or serious injury.

 

[Kingspanner]

And it is in the sense of the legal definition of Grievous Bodily Harm "Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously wound or inflict any grievous bodily harm upon any other person, either with or without any weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years. (Offences Against The Person Act 1861 section 20)

The offence definition skilfully does not care by what method you carry it out, it only cares about the outcome you cause. And this is why 160 year old legislation remains fit for purpose - methods change, injuries don't.

 

[Lytham Local]

Forgive my possible stupidity, but there isn't a direct line between Southport and Preston? I wish there was!

There used to be back in the day, but long since closed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lancashire_Railway. There has been talk of reinstating Burscough Curves which would allow a direct service from Preston to Southport, but I've not heard anything recently about that happening. Probably won't happen.

 

[sprunt]

It is in the sense that both are malicious actions that can lead to death or serious injury.

I'd say that leaving the stuff on the road (or the rail) is reckless, rather than malicious. As people have mentioned previously in the thread, if anyone were to die as a result, it's likely that the charge would be manslaughter rather than murder.

 

[DarloRich]

The swimmer??

No it was a case from the miners strike. IRC two miners dropped a concrete block from a bridge into a taxi containing two strike breakers. The driver was killed. The pair were convicted of murder but the charge was knocked down to manslaughter on appeal.

It is an interesting technical case and can be found as R v Hancock. Irc the main discussion points are around "foresight", intent and probability

I believe a third man was aqcuitted for trying to talk them out of it.

 

[philthetube]

You know as young slightly bored lads we'd occasionally stick a 10p flat on the rail with chewing gum and let a coal train iron it incredibly flat, mainly so we could have a ten penny the size of a saucer. It was stupid yes and really not something to do but even then we decided that doing it near a switch was bad, in case it got stuck in the workings. But blocks of concrete? None of us were ever that stupid we knew that would potentially cause major issues and I cannot think anyone wanted to actually derail a train. These guys knew what they were doing and I suspect they are going to get more than just a little slap on the wrist if it happend six times...

You guys obviously had too much pocket money, we used pennies, and old ones at that.