BTP & Preserved railways

[DarloRich]

On Friday when attending the NYMR diesel gala I noted 3 BTP types travelling on a couple of trains. It was a first for me. Is this a regular occurrence? Any other examples gratefully received/discussed!

NOTE: I saw nothing that would warrant a BTP response but it was interesting to see them in attendance. Perhaps they were just 37 bashers

 

[westcoaster]

Wasn't there a post awhile back about people onboard window hanging and not having valid rovers/tickets.

Maybe something to do with it.

 

[DarloRich]

Wasn't there a post awhile back about people onboard window hanging and not having valid rovers/tickets.

Maybe something to do with it.

there were plenty of notices asking you not to "excessively" lean out of the window. Unsure if that was distance or time related!

However that isn't, surely, a police matter

 

[westcoaster]

Anti social behaviour and failure to listen to train crew.

Or just out and being seen to reassure travellers.

 

[transportphoto]

Were they on the mainline section, or the preserved section?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Interesting, I know on the KWVR the BTP have no jurisdiction, we are West Yorkshire Police. Wonder if this varies between railways.

 

[D6130]

That may be because the BTP budget is largely payed for by Network Rail and the TOCs, AIUI....but - as always - open to correction. Maybe the NYMR also makes a contribution?

 

[Iskra]

Possibly just there for liaison, engagement or showing their faces. Probably has a deterrent effect even if they have no actual powers, and if anything does happen they can probably do a citizens arrest and summon North Yorkshire Police quicker than NYMR or a member of the public could.

 

[DarloRich]

Were they on the mainline section, or the preserved section?

the preserved section.

 

[transportphoto]

Probably has a deterrent effect even if they have no actual powers, and if anything does happen they can probably do a citizens arrest and summon North Yorkshire Police quicker than NYMR or a member of the public could.

The chances are they have a local agreement with the Chief Constable of North Yorks in any case. If BTP need to use powers away from traditional jurisdiction, the territorial force only needs to request their support and my understanding is that this can be in response to a specific incident. Happy to be corrected, and for those with better knowledge to elaborate!

A brief search suggests that BTP jurisdiction covers all railways as per the definition provided in s67
Transport and Works Act 1992:

railway” means a system of transport employing parallel rails which—
(a)
provide support and guidance for vehicles carried on flanged wheels, and
(b)
form a track which either is of a gauge of at least 350 millimetres or crosses a carriageway (whether or not on the same level),
but does not include a tramway;

With that definition referenced in Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 - which is the statute which creates the Police Authority for BTP.

Do they have powers on preserved lines by way of statute?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I may have misunderstood, going to go away and double check!

 

[Trackman]

On Friday when attending the NYMR diesel gala I noted 3 BTP types travelling on a couple of trains. It was a first for me. Is this a regular occurrence? Any other examples gratefully received/discussed!

NOTE: I saw nothing that would warrant a BTP response but it was interesting to see them in attendance. Perhaps they were just 37 bashers

Yes, they could be class 37 cranks.

Interesting, I know on the KWVR the BTP have no jurisdiction, we are West Yorkshire Police. Wonder if this varies between railways.

That's what I thought about heritage railways too. It's private land. Surely a ticketing issue or whatever (within reason) would be a civil matter.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

NYMR is actually unusual amongst most heritage operators, as it is also a bone fide TOC, (code NY). They have to pay contributions into various industry schemes such as the Rail Ombudsman, and I suspect they probably also have some liability and rights towards funding /setting policing priorities via BTPA.

Interesting, I know on the KWVR the BTP have no jurisdiction, we are West Yorkshire Police. Wonder if this varies between railways.

That isn't correct - I understand what you mean, but it isn't accurate.

BTP, in law, as has been quoted elsewhere already has primary jurisdiction on any railway or railway infrastructure as defined by the Transport & Works Act (there are some exceptions). They can, however, simply not exercise their theoretical jurisdiction.

However, in practice, any organisation that does not presently contribute / participate in the BTPA does not generally get dedicated policing, and it is left to the local forces instead. Essentially the BTP aren't going to police something nobody is asking them, or paying them, for. It's basically a private, for hire, police force, for specific infrastructure.

KWVR would be entitled to enter into a BTPA arrangement if they felt it would be worthwhile, but it is eye wateringly expensive.

Personally, I think the next government should amalgamate the various different Sea/Air Ports, Nuclear, MOD, Tunnels and British Transport Police forces into a new Critical Infrastructure Constabulary, but that's for another topic!

 

[WAB]

Even if they’re out of their jurisdiction, they have powers to act if required immediately if to wait for the territorial force would cause serious issues

Possibly just there for liaison, engagement or showing their faces. Probably has a deterrent effect even if they have no actual powers, and if anything does happen they can probably do a citizens arrest and summon North Yorkshire Police quicker than NYMR or a member of the public could.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I wonder if some railways still hold the powers to raise their own police service? Companies like the Ffestiniog which will have inherited many of the original 19thC powers. Would be expensive to set up but probably still cheaper than contracting BTP. (Especially if all volunteer special constables)

 

[DanNCL]

I’ve recently started volunteering on a heritage railway and, honestly, the situation when it comes to policing is pretty poor.

BTP choose not to have anything to do with it as it’s a heritage line. The local force try washing their hands of it by referring any incidents to the BTP, the local force has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do anything and even then they still do the bare minimum.
We’re the only heritage line in the area covered by the local force and the crime rate in the area is low, I do sometimes wonder if that plays a part in why they don’t show much interest.

We have various references in our rule book to contacting the police for assistance in certain circumstances and whilst obviously I would follow the rule book, I would also have zero confidence in the police actually doing anything.

 

[Lost property]

I wonder if some railways still hold the powers to raise their own police service? Companies like the Ffestiniog which will have inherited many of the original 19thC powers. Would be expensive to set up but probably still cheaper than contracting BTP. (Especially if all volunteer special constables)

You need to go back a relatively few years regarding a certain London parks "police" (helpfully covered extensively by Private Eye) to understand why private police operations are not a good idea.

That, and I really wouldn't trust spotters acting as police to be capable of performing their role.

 

[John Luxton]

I wonder if some railways still hold the powers to raise their own police service? Companies like the Ffestiniog which will have inherited many of the original 19thC powers. Would be expensive to set up but probably still cheaper than contracting BTP. (Especially if all volunteer special constables)

Would not BTP partially cover the FR at Blaenau anyway by virtue of it being a joint station? There is, a notice from BTP in Welsh about disorderly behaviour at the station by the Conwy Vally line shelter. I did read an article on the Daily Post web site that Blaenau Station was one of the most troublesome stations in Wales outside of Cardiff.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Would not BTP partially cover the FR at Blaenau anyway by virtue of it being a joint station? There is, a notice from BTP in Welsh about disorderly behaviour at the station by the Conwy Vally line shelter. I did read an article on the Daily Post web site that Blaenau Station was one of the most troublesome stations in Wales outside of Cardiff.

Nearest btp station to BF possibly is cardiff!Whereas the FR having their own police service would allow more focus.

It's idle speculation anyway; the accreditation needed for running a police service probably rivals that of passenger railway. So would only be possible if whole FR *police* society was set up.

 

[Mike 1050]

Nearest btp station to BF possibly is cardiff!Whereas the FR having their own police service would allow more focus.

It's idle speculation anyway; the accreditation needed for running a police service probably rivals that of passenger railway. So would only be possible if whole FR *police* society was set up.

BTP stations at Bangor, Rhyl , Chester, Shrewsbury and Machynlleth

 

[Backroom_boy]

BTP stations at Bangor, Rhyl , Chester, Shrewsbury and Machynlleth

Ah you're correct. Very suprised about a couple of those smaller places

 

[Mike 1050]

Ah you're correct. Very suprised about a couple of those smaller places

However Not many staff. The railway keeps recruiting them because they pain more money

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That's what I thought about heritage railways too. It's private land. Surely a ticketing issue or whatever (within reason) would be a civil matter.

Not necessarily. The KWVR, for example, have Byelaws which are almost word for word the same as the national network, thus making such matters a criminal matter rather than civil.

In respect of the NYMR, I believe they are policed by BTP, and have been for a few years, although not since they started operating on the national network, I think it was a more recent change.

I know through my work on the national network that when there has been a matter requiring urgent police response that if the BTP cannot immediately attend, they will contact the local constabulary and request assistance from them. Having been requested by another force to assist, they then do so, normally fairly promptly. My gut feeling is that those local forces would give higher priority to requests from another force than they might if it were a member of public / staff ringing them directly and asking for assistance. The BTP would have a better overally understanding and picture of railway operations and matters than a local force and devise an appropriate response.

That said, the KWVR has in recent times always got a fairly prompt response from the West Yorkshire Constabulary in respect of matters of trespass, etc. My only concern is that because they lack the requisite training or specific railway knowledge of BTP, some of their decision making in how to deal with a matter is not as helpful as BTP - for example wanting a complete line closure or blockage before they will do something, rather than a more measured proceed at caution type of response.

 

[357]

My only concern is that because they lack the requisite training or specific railway knowledge of BTP, some of their decision making in how to deal with a matter is not as helpful as BTP - for example wanting a complete line closure or blockage before they will do something, rather than a more measured proceed at caution type of response.

I always insist on a full line blockage before letting BTP on the track - unfortunately I've had my fingers burnt by them in the past!!

 

[Lampman]

Following a burglary at one of our stations in April, it was categorically confirmed that the BTP do NOT police preserved railways.

 

[Mike 1050]

BTP are not paid for by the home office like most forces, they are paid for by rail industry to look after the railway. Preserved railway fall outside if that remit

 

[paul1609]

BTP are not paid for by the home office like most forces, they are paid for by rail industry to look after the railway. Preserved railway fall outside if that remit

Your absolutely right but certainly in country areas there are reciprocal agreements between the county forces and the btp. Our railway doesn't contribute to the btp but they have certainly attended minor incidents on behalf of Sussex Police. They've also been our liaison when there have been high profile events that cross our level crossings on the basis that they are dealing with everything "railway".

 

[12C]

Apart from the North Yorkshire Moors Railway (which I believe are a TOC and I guess will contribute towards the BTP), I’m very surprised BTP would have any involvement with other heritage railways, especially considering how overstretched they are just keeping on top of crime on the National Rail.

Preserved railways are not part of the national network, they are a tourist attraction and/or working museum. BTP would have just as much justification policing them as they would do policing Beamish, Alton Towers or a National Trust property.

 

[mind-the-gap]

What powers (if any) would an off duty BTP have volunteering (not in a “policing“ role) on a heritage railway?

 

[TheTallOne]

What powers (if any) would an off duty BTP have volunteering (not in a “policing“ role) on a heritage railway?

Police are technically never off duty, if something happens they have a duty to deal with it, or at least call it in and act as a professional witness (e.g. if they've been to the pub, best to call it in rather than get involved!)

They will have most of their powers whilst off duty. The only powers they can't exercise are those that require them to be in uniform (e.g. requesting an alcohol test) - but they can detain the person until uniformed officer arrives.


This may be of interest re BTP and territorial forces:

Do British Transport Police officers have the same powers as other police officers? | West Yorkshire Police

www.westyorkshire.police.uk

BTP officers have the powers and privileges of a Constable beyond their normal jurisdiction in three specific circumstances:

When asked for assistance by a Constable from local police, Ministry of Defence Police or the Civil Nuclear Constabulary;
If they believe that someone has committed, is committing or is about to commit an offence, and waiting for a local officer would frustrate the interests of justice;
To save life or prevent injury.
In such circumstances, where their assistance has not been requested by the local force, the officer will need to decide whether their immediate intervention is necessary.