Burnage Railway Station...

[FrozenPoints]

Anyone familiar to the station, just outside Manchester Piccadilly will know how much of a pain, like other stations along that route, are.

In the morning, around 9.30am - I was heading southbound - running late, legging it for the train, got to the platform with about 40 seconds to spare (train running slightly late).

I got onboard to buy a ticket -did so with the conductor.

He refused to sell me one with a YP railcard - and I think he was not within his rights to do so.

Why?
There is no ticket machine on the southbound platform.
The ticket office in Burnage is closed.
There was two G4S ticket conductors, on northbound plat only - for me it would take about 3/4 minutes just to get over to that platform, buying a ticket...going all the way down, past the bridge and up again (buying a ticket and back again).
And no ticket inspector is guaranteed to be on the northbound either!
I hated the conductor's bu**sh*t excuse...

What should the conductor have done, was he right?

 

[bnm]

Most salient point:

"Running late."

Not the railways fault.

Ticket purchasing facilities were available at the station, so the conductor onboard acted correctly.

 

[cuccir]

Ticket purchasing facilities were available at the station, so the conductor onboard acted correctly.

This is the case. It's a bit irritating when platforms are a significant walk apart, but its still how it works. At least you don't live in a penalty fares area...

 

[FrozenPoints]

Running late is neither here nor there. And from using the Styal Line for a week - I'm shocked at how SLOW, slapdash, and laid back conductors are, when it comes to keeping a punctual service on the line.

I would (naturally) vehermently disagree - basically put a ticket machine on a mountain - (and oh, its still accessable)...*rolls eyes*

 

[AlterEgo]

You should have bought a ticket at the station, as there were facilities available. The guard acted entirely correctly.

Next time, don't be late. Stop blaming others for your own failing.

 

[FrozenPoints]

I'm going to try and not be so angry....(and will attempt to calm down)...

 

[yorkie]

Looking at Stations Made Easy, it isn't entirely clear what you have to do to change platforms - do you have to use the ramp or are there stairs that would reduce the time? The ramp looks very long and time consuming to use.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the ticket office is advertised as being open at 09:30, and that it's on the platform toward the Airport. Is this correct? If so, was there anything advertising the fact it was closed at the entrance to the station? Was there a notice giving instructions on what to do at the ticket office itself?

If there had been a notice at the entrance you used to enter the station saying to buy tickets from the opposite platform to the ticket office, would this have reduced the time?

Has anyone contacted Northern to ask how long before the train is scheduled to depart you should arrive?

 

[Scotrail84]

You should have bought a ticket at the station, as there were facilities available. The guard acted entirely correctly.

Next time, don't be late. Stop blaming others for your own failing.

Spot on mate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Given that "reasonable queueing time" is at least 5 minutes, the 3/4 minute estimate given by the OP to buy tickets from the available outlet (RPIs) on the opposite platform seems entirely fair to me.

I can't see what Northern have done wrong here - the guard correctly refused to sell the discounted ticket because there was opportunity to purchase the discounted ticket at the station.

This all stems from the OP being late in the first place!

 

[Mark_re]

Of course the guard was correct, but I have some sympathy with the OP. I got an Airport train from Mauldeth Road a couple of years ago. I forget what time, but it was about 0940. When I got out at the Airport, there were ticket checks. So I asked for a single from Mauldeth Road to the Airport and presented my Y-P.

The TPE RPI was really brusque ("and WHY didn't you buy a ticket?") and refused the Y-P discount, because the ticket office would have been open. Fair enough. Except it was the first time I'd used the station, I didn't know the little hut existed, I couldn't remember having seen anything to suggest (from the Southbound platform) that there was somewhere to buy a ticket.

I suggest improved signage at the stations along the line. Particularly those where the ticket buying facilities aren't obvious and the opening hours are baroque.

Mark

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Anyone familiar to the station, just outside Manchester Piccadilly will know how much of a pain, like other stations along that route, are.

In the morning, around 9.30am - I was heading southbound - running late, legging it for the train, got to the platform with about 40 seconds to spare (train running slightly late).

I got onboard to buy a ticket -did so with the conductor.

He refused to sell me one with a YP railcard - and I think he was not within his rights to do so.

Why?
There is no ticket machine on the southbound platform.
The ticket office in Burnage is closed.
There was two G4S ticket conductors, on northbound plat only - for me it would take about 3/4 minutes just to get over to that platform, buying a ticket...going all the way down, past the bridge and up again (buying a ticket and back again).
And no ticket inspector is guaranteed to be on the northbound either!
I hated the conductor's bu**sh*t excuse...

What should the conductor have done, was he right?

My colleague was exactly correct in his handling of the situation, I would have done the same, The Ticket office in Burnage is closed due to having been robbed and totally Trashed, even tho it is frustrating you my friend are in the wrong on this occasion, also if the conductor let you on through his door you were very lucky as we are not allowed to do so and G4 are NOT conductors they are revenue protection!

 

[Lampshade]

Having lived near there and having used the services regularly, the stations on the Styal line are a pain and timekeeping IS a problem, most services are 3/4 minutes late. Although to be fair, this is mainly down to being held up by TPE delays or problems at Slade Lane Jn.

A number of ticket offices on that line have quietly reopened without any posters/press releases so passengers get on without realising the ticket office was open and get chinged for full fare. What shocked me even more is you were sold a ticket between BNA and EDY, usually travel between Gatley and Mauldeth Road is a free-for-all hock:

However, technically, ticket issuing facilities were available so the conductor was correct.

 

[exile]

I would like to know how that one's enforced (not letting someone board without a ticket). In 30 years of travelling with Northern and their predecessors I have never once been asked to present a ticket when boarding.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Having lived near there and having used the services regularly, the stations on the Styal line are a pain and timekeeping IS a problem, most services are 3/4 minutes late. Although to be fair, this is mainly down to being held up by TPE delays or problems at Slade Lane Jn.

A number of ticket offices on that line have quietly reopened without any posters/press releases so passengers get on without realising the ticket office was open and get chinged for full fare. What shocked me even more is you were sold a ticket between BNA and EDY, usually travel between Gatley and Mauldeth Road is a free-for-all hock:

However, technically, ticket issuing facilities were available so the conductor was correct.

The stations are too close together so we rarely manage to get out of the rear coach unless it is particularly quiet but heading towards MIA and CRE at that time we do get alot more and you are correct about why we tend to run late..good old TPE

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket purchasing facilities were available at the station, so the conductor onboard acted correctly.

From Northern's own timetables:
You must buy your ticket from the ticket office or
ticket vending machine before getting on the train.
If the ticket office is closed or you board at an unstaffed
station you can buy your ticket from the conductor on
the train. If you avoid using the ticket office or vending
machine when they’re available, the conductor will
charge you the full Anytime single/return fare.

No mention of needing to buy from RPI staff who are located on a different platform.

In 30 years of travelling with Northern and their predecessors I have never once been asked to present a ticket when boarding.

The year is now 2034?! hock: Northern Rail only started running services in 2004.

My colleague was exactly correct in his handling of the situation, I would have done the same, The Ticket office in Burnage is closed due to having been robbed and totally Trashed, even tho it is frustrating you my friend are in the wrong on this occasion, also if the conductor let you on through his door you were very lucky as we are not allowed to do so and G4 are NOT conductors they are revenue protection!

I don't know the layout of Burnage but if the G4S staff are supposed to be taking the place of the ticket office then I hope either they were standing near the entrance to the ticket office or they was a notice put on the door of the ticket office explaining the alternative ticket arrangements.

 

[Greenback]

The conductor was quite right and acting in accordance with published company policy. It was not a bu**sh*t excuse, and your anger is misplaced on this occasion.

If you arrive at a station with only 40 seconds to spare, you will have to choose whether to catch the train and pay the full fare, or buy a discounted ticket and wait for the next one. Even if the ticket office had been open and located at the platform entrance it's debatable whether you would have been able to buy a ticket in time.

 

[evil_hippo]

I feel a lot of people being very unnecessarily harsh here. The railway is very often perceived as very harsh and unfriendly in the way it enforces the fares system, and it's not necessary for everyone here to reinforce that perception.

"Next time, don't be late. Stop blaming others for your own failing."

I think that paragraph made me vomit a little. Surely everyone has the experience to know that sometimes these things happen. Sometimes unexpected things come up and people are late. We ought not to be chastising people for that inevitability.

I challenge anyone to tell me that they honestly disagree with this statement:

It is not reasonable to expect a passenger, who is willing and able to pay, to miss a train that they can see and are physically able to board before departure. I would make an exception of systems that a) offer very high frequency, or b) do not have conductors consistently on board.

I'd add that it is particularly unreasonable to expect a passenger to miss their train because of temporary ticket issuing facilities being unexpectedly made available where they normally are not.

Those that do may wish to remember that the railway exists as a service to meet people's need to get from A to B, not as a fun game of making and enforcing arbitrary rules, much as East Coast's staff may act that way.

I find that most conductors understand that well, particularly northern rail ones who don't profit, through commission, out of penalising people. The important point, then, is establishing that willingness and ability to pay. One can prove that they are willing and able to pay by going immediately the conductor, explaining their circumstances and asking politely for a discounted ticket.

So my question to the OP is whether you did this? If not, then it's unfortunate but understandable that you weren't judged to necessarily have intended to buy a ticket at all. If you did, then any reasonable conductor would have sold you the ticket you needed, and you came upon a bad egg.

Sadly, because of the rules stated earlier in the thread, it's extremely unlikely that you'll get any money back. However, I would still urge you to nevertheless write to Northern Rail to state, for what it's worth, that you think it is unacceptable to be treated in that way, when you were clearly not attempting to avoid paying your fare.

You have my sympathy for your treatment by this conductor.

 

[MikeWh]

In 30 years of travelling with Northern and their predecessors I have never once been asked to present a ticket when boarding.

The year is now 2034?! hock: Northern Rail only started running services in 2004.

I took predecessors to mean the companies that operated the trains now operated by Northern in the years before Northern took over, starting in 1981 with British Rail, presumably!

 

[AlterEgo]

"Next time, don't be late. Stop blaming others for your own failing."

I think that paragraph made me vomit a little.

The OP said the guard made a "bull**** excuse". It is not bull, nor is it an excuse. It is the truth and the guard acted correctly. As Greenback said, the OP's anger is misplaced here.

It is the OP's fault he was late, nobody else's. A five minute wait at a ticket office is considered reasonable by industry standards. The OP states that he'd probably have taken three or four minutes to buy a ticket from the available outlet - the RPIs. I consider this a reasonable wait, and if a train comes and goes in that time, then tough. That's life, you learn something, and you arrive earlier next time.

It is worth considering the Railway Byelaws:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

The customer has to take some responsibility for their own actions - i.e. their own lateness! If I missed a train like this I'd be angry at myself, and nobody else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I challenge anyone to tell me that they honestly disagree with this statement:

It is not reasonable to expect a passenger, who is willing and able to pay, to miss a train that they can see and are physically able to board before departure

I honestly disagree. You must buy a ticket before you travel, where there is a facility for you to do so. This is, in my view, fair and equitable.

Anyway, the OP didn't miss his train - he missed only the discount on his ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bear in mind we have people in another thread berating Northern for not providing opportunities to buy tickets before travel!

 

[cuccir]

It is not reasonable to expect a passenger, who is willing and able to pay, to miss a train that they can see and are physically able to board before departure. I would make an exception of systems that a) offer very high frequency, or b) do not have conductors consistently on board.

I don't see many people who would agree with this. If I turn up at a station 30 seconds before arrival, and rush on to the train, I don't see why I should expect the same service as someone who arrived on time to get their discounted tickets. After all, as should be noted, all that happened was that the traveller didn't get the discount.

I'd add that it is particularly unreasonable to expect a passenger to miss their train because of temporary ticket issuing facilities being unexpectedly made available where they normally are not.

There might be something in this. If the OP had expected the ticket office to be open, and it wasn't, resulting in long queues, then I'd hope the guard would show discretion. This thread is a good example of that sort of situation, though in the case provided a delayed train meant that the passenger wasn't put out too much.

So both train company and passenger have rights and responsibilities.

BTW, I expect the responses would have been less condemning if the original poster had shown humility/understanding/compassion in his own first post, rather than going straight to insults.

 

[Greenback]

I challenge anyone to tell me that they honestly disagree with this statement:

It is not reasonable to expect a passenger, who is willing and able to pay, to miss a train that they can see and are physically able to board before departure. I would make an exception of systems that a) offer very high frequency, or b) do not have conductors consistently on board.

No, I don;t expect a passenger to miss the train in the circumstances outlined by the OP. I expect them to make a decision as to whether to board the train, with the operator's policy being that only non discounted tickets will be sold by the guard, or to get a cheaper ticket and miss the train.

I do not expect the person to decide to board the train and then complain that the guard followed the company policy.

it's unfortunate but understandable that you weren't judged to necessarily have intended to buy a ticket at all. If you did, then any reasonable conductor would have sold you the ticket you needed, and you came upon a bad egg.

That is nonsense, with respect. There is no accusation that the OP is any sort of fare evader. I find it remarkable that you can call the member of staff a bad egg for doing their job correctly.

Sadly, because of the rules stated earlier in the thread, it's extremely unlikely that you'll get any money back. However, I would still urge you to nevertheless write to Northern Rail to state, for what it's worth, that you think it is unacceptable to be treated in that way, when you were clearly not attempting to avoid paying your fare.

You have my sympathy for your treatment by this conductor.

Treated in what way? The OP got on the train without buying a ticket. The rules, quite rightly say that in those circumstances you will not receive any discounts. It is not unacceptable to be treated accordingly, and nobody has said anything at all about the OP trying to avoid paying.

 

[gooses]

It is the OP's fault he was late, nobody else's. A five minute wait at a ticket office is considered reasonable by industry standards. The OP states that he'd probably have taken three or four minutes to buy a ticket from the available outlet - the RPIs. I consider this a reasonable wait, and if a train comes and goes in that time, then tough. That's life, you learn something, and you arrive earlier next time.

So what about when the Northern ticket office at my local is open and I turn up in good time - say ten minutes prior to departure - and get stuck behind someone who is thinking about going to London next Saturday. Do you seriously suggest that I should have to miss my train for that? Likewise, given my experiences of G4S, it would have taken substantially longer than five minutes to buy - they would presumably have first listened to my request, then proceeded to sell me the incorrect fare and then got annoyed with me when I requested they correct the mistake. So in this instance the conductor was presumably "right" from a revenue protection point of view, but they might have exercised some discretion. You clearly don't get the pleasure of travelling with Northern enough...

 

[AlterEgo]

So what about when the Northern ticket office at my local is open and I turn up in good time - say ten minutes prior to departure - and get stuck behind someone who is thinking about going to London next Saturday. Do you seriously suggest that I should have to miss my train for that?

Absolutely not, if you read my posts - in that case, the queueing time (which you have doubled!) is not reasonable, and you should be able to avail of the full range of discounts on board. It's certainly much different to arriving 40 with seconds to spare, isn't it? I consider a wait of five minutes to be acceptable. Any longer, and discretion really ought to be shown.

If G4S delay you by issuing the wrong ticket, or making other mistakes, then complain; a good TOC will issue proper training and/or instructions, and compensate you for your time. It is not reasonable to pass up an opportunity to buy a ticket "because they might make a mistake".

I travel with Northern every two to four weeks (and have done for a couple of years) and find their front-line staff to be the most reasonable and helpful of any local-service TOC.

 

[dggar]

Is there any practical reason( other than conflicting with the rule book) for a conductor not being able to offer a discounted fare if the passenger would normally be entiltled to a discounted fare bought at the ticket office?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there any practical reason( other than conflicting with the rule book) for a conductor not being able to offer a discounted fare if the passenger would normally be entiltled to a discounted fare bought at the ticket office?

No. It still appears on his Avantix machine. However, on Northern, he should not sell it on board, except in special circumstances.

The rule exists to encourage passengers to buy their ticket before they board the train where there is opportunity to do so. I refer you to my quotation of the Railway Byelaws in post #19.

 

[yorkie]

Is there any practical reason( other than conflicting with the rule book) for a conductor not being able to offer a discounted fare if the passenger would normally be entiltled to a discounted fare bought at the ticket office?

No. Customers are expected to inconvenience themselves, to exiting the station, walking a long way round to the opposite side of the station to the ticket office, queue, buy a ticket from a security bloke, exit the station again, walk a long way round back to the (closed) ticket office, re-enter the station and then board the train. Any customer who does not allow sufficient time for this procedure is charged a premium. Anyone who is unhappy at this situation and unable to arrive several minutes before their train is advised to go by car. Anyone who has an injury and/or disability preventing them from taking the long way round can either not travel by rail or consider asking for discretion and if it's not shown, consider taking the matter up further.

If I missed a train like this I'd be angry at myself, and nobody else.

If you turned up at MKC ticket office to see it was closed and you had to exit the station, walk a long way around to the opposite side of the station and re-enter on the other side and buy from some G4S security bloke with a ticket machine, and then exit the station and walk back round to the (closed) ticket office, would you be angry at yourself? If so I think you are too harsh on yourself. Difficult to imagine at MKC? Well, yes, but Burnage is quite different to MKC!

If I went to York ticket office and was told to go a long way round (imagine the normal footbridge/underpasses were closed) to another entrance and back again, I would consider that to be unreasonable. Of course, this would never happen at York, we have 1 footbridge, 2 underpasses, and numerous ticket machines near all entrances and no problems with queues (at least not for machines). OK so Burnage can't be quite like this but there has to be some acceptance that if the TOCs make it difficult for travel in one direction then something needs to be done.

 

[FrozenPoints]

Blimey - I've opened a horrid can of worms here...

I am certainly not a fare evader.

My point is about access - I would have happily bought a ticket if there was a machine on my platform, there isn't and it is unbelievably long to get to the other platform - and for me that is just not right - 0.25km doesn't seem long plus the gradient and the weaving in between fences - but trust me it is.

Travelling or buying a ticket shouldn't be complicated - at all - but it is when there is a total lack of facilities.

Devils advocate: Would a disabled passenger get an exception?

A bridge to get to the other side would be v handy...but there just isn't the space.

And yes, the ticket office was closed/boarded up.

On a side note: I am suprised, if true, Northern Rail guards don't get commission...

 

[All Line Rover]

The bottom line is, the OP arrived with 40 seconds to spare. If I arrived with 40 seconds to spare at Crewe, I wouldn't just jump on the next train to London Euston expecting to buy a Railcard-discounted ticket! :roll:

It is reasonable to allow about 10 minutes before your journey to purchase a ticket. Even when I already have a ticket, I do not turn up at the last minute to catch my train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Devils advocate: Would a disabled passenger get an exception?

Yes. I don't think Northern would want any legal action because of "disability discrimination!"

 

[142094]

Although I agree that what the conductor did was correct, in this case I would probably send an email or letter to Northern asking if:

1) A TVM could be installed on the platform or at a convenient position

2) If, in future when using G4S, each platform could have one member of staff selling tickets.

Northern often put in new TVMs at stations with great fanfare - so don't see why they couldn't install one at Burnage.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Although I agree that what the conductor did was correct, in this case I would probably send an email or letter to Northern asking if:

1) A TVM could be installed on the platform or at a convenient position

2) If, in future when using G4S, each platform could have one member of staff selling tickets.

Northern often put in new TVMs at stations with great fanfare - so don't see why they couldn't install one at Burnage.

on the 5 stations between Picc and [stn]MIA[/stn] they could easily do it due to all the stations having CCTV, would they be used..who knows