Burnage Railway Station...

[AlterEgo]

I am certainly not a fare evader.

That is quite obvious. Nobody is suggesting you are a fare evader - just maybe a little disorganised

However, would people be complaining so vehemently had the ticket office been open, the OP queued for three minutes, and missed his train? (or ducked out of the queue and was not able to get a discount on board)

I stand by my opinion that three or four minutes is a reasonable time to expect to wait for a ticket, and that people should factor this in when making a journey. It just is not practical to expect to run to the station and leap onto the train without buying a ticket, and then expect a discount.

I always try to arrive ten minutes before - even for my daily commute. Once I forgot my pass and had to pay the fare. I had to queue at the booking office (only place to get Priv discounts), missed a train as a result, and the only person who caused that inconvenience to my day was me.

 

[All Line Rover]

It is not reasonable to expect a passenger, who is willing and able to pay, to miss a train that they can see and are physically able to board before departure. I would make an exception of systems that a) offer very high frequency, or b) do not have conductors consistently on board.

I disagree. Whilst this would be a nice idea in a perfect world, it would make it even more difficult to catch fare evaders!

 

[yorkie]

Blimey - I've opened a horrid can of worms here...

Most things are a can of worms, as the railway has a ticket structure and rules that ATOC deem "simple", but their definition does not match that of an ordinary person.

I am certainly not a fare evader.

No-one has suggested you are, but some people are most unhappy that you are unhappy at being charged a premium for not massively inconveniencing yourself.

You see, you make the mistake that you are genuinely considered to be a customer. You aren't, that's just what they claim. A restaurant wouldn't make people exit the restaurant walk a 4 minute walk around the block and come back. But the railways can make you do this, and unfortunately they are - technically, and by the book - correct.

If you are unhappy with this requirement I suggest contacting your MP.

If you can find people who are elderly, who use the trains, it would help your case if they could also contact the relevant MP too.

My point is about access - I would have happily bought a ticket if there was a machine on my platform, there isn't and it is unbelievably long to get to the other platform - and for me that is just not right - 0.25km doesn't seem long plus the gradient and the weaving in between fences - but trust me it is.

Ask Northern directly for their views. You could also video the walk, to demonstrate what it's like. If I am ever at that part of Manchester, I'll take a look.

Travelling or buying a ticket shouldn't be complicated - at all - but it is when there is a total lack of facilities.

Devils advocate: Would a disabled passenger get an exception?

If they didn't, Northern would be paying out compensation or facing a humiliating court case (they've already lost a few on ticketing matters!) and much negative press. Which they would fully deserve. However I suspect they would show discretion in that case.

A bridge to get to the other side would be v handy...but there just isn't the space.

And yes, the ticket office was closed/boarded up.

Any notices/instructions on the ticket office?

On a side note: I am suprised, if true, Northern Rail guards don't get commission...

They do get commission. I believe it's around 5%.

 

[bnm]

No. Customers are expected to inconvenience themselves, to exiting the station, walking a long way round to the opposite side of the station to the ticket office, queue, buy a ticket from a security bloke, exit the station again, walk a long way round back to the (closed) ticket office, re-enter the station and then board the train.

You should check the layout of the station, Yorkie. In the OPs case at Burnage he should've gone to the location of ticket office on the northbound platform where the two GS4 staff were (that's twice as many ticket staff than would normally be on duty) before making his way up to the southbound platform. Of course, he didn't do that because he was, "running late."

It's clear from the OP that the GS4 staff were on the opposite platform to that from which the OP travelled southbound. With sufficient time (ie not "40 seconds") it would've been possible to purchase his discounted ticket. Tickets were being sold from the usual location, just not from the office.

There are many locations across the rail network with separate access to platforms and only one location selling tickets. Probably some with a walk more difficult than at Burnage. Fact remains, where facilities exist it is the passengers responsibility to purchase a ticket before travel.

 

[Greenback]

No. Customers are expected to inconvenience themselves, to exiting the station, walking a long way round to the opposite side of the station to the ticket office, queue, buy a ticket from a security bloke, exit the station again, walk a long way round back to the (closed) ticket office, re-enter the station and then board the train. Any customer who does not allow sufficient time for this procedure is charged a premium. Anyone who is unhappy at this situation and unable to arrive several minutes before their train is advised to go by car. Anyone who has an injury and/or disability preventing them from taking the long way round can either not travel by rail or consider asking for discretion and if it's not shown, consider taking the matter up further.

There ar emany locations where passengers have to go across to another platform to buy a ticket, then cross back. It's something that should be allowed for.

In this instance, the OP states they arrived with 40 seconds to spare. I don;t see how that cna be considered sufficient to buy a ticket either at an open ticket office immediately before the platform, or at a TVM at the entrance to the platform. Imagine someone else was already using the TVM, or at the counter?

I'm afraid it's simply not realistic to expect to arrive at a station less than a minute before departure and expect to be able to buy a ticket in that time.

Blimey - I've opened a horrid can of worms here...

I am certainly not a fare evader.

I am certain you are not, I don't think it's been suggested that you are!

My point is about access - I would have happily bought a ticket if there was a machine on my platform, there isn't and it is unbelievably long to get to the other platform - and for me that is just not right - 0.25km doesn't seem long plus the gradient and the weaving in between fences - but trust me it is.

You may have happily bought a ticket but I don't think you would have had time. I have never managed to complete a transaction in less than 40 seconds, takeing into consideration the time it takes to select the destination, number of tickets, discounts, make the payment and then wait for the tickets to be printed.

Travelling or buying a ticket shouldn't be complicated - at all - but it is when there is a total lack of facilities.

Devils advocate: Would a disabled passenger get an exception?

A bridge to get to the other side would be v handy...but there just isn't the space.

And yes, the ticket office was closed/boarded up.

On a side note: I am suprised, if true, Northern Rail guards don't get commission...

I agree that buying a ticket should be as easy as possible, and I have argued in other threads for this. But it's a fact that some locations are more problematic than others. As you say, ther's no space at some to make access easier, there may be multiple entrances but insufficient overall business to justify a TVM at each, and TVM's may have been vandalised and withdrawn. In Burnage, it appears that the ticket office itself was burnt out.

So, even with the best will in the world it isn't possible for every passenger to always be able to buy a ticket and board the train within one minute of arriving at the station. It never has been, and most likely it never will be possible to guarantee that.

 

[island]

I regrettably agree with the conductor on this occasion; where ticket-buying facilities exist at the station they should be used.

Stone Crossing is another problematic location for things like this. The station has a pedestrian level crossing (at the down end of the platform), no footbridge, and a part-time ticket office and PERTIS machine opposite the entrance to the up platform. If a passenger approaches from the down side wishing to board a down train, they need to be quite a bit early because they have to get across, buy a permit to travel, and back over before the level crossing locks when the train is 2-3 minutes away. Otherwise it's half an hour to the next one.

 

[yorkie]

You should check the layout of the station, Yorkie.

I have tried, using "Stations Made Easy" It is a reasonably good site, though not particularly easy for Burnage.

In the OPs case at Burnage he should've gone to the location of ticket office on the northbound platform where the two GS4 staff were (that's twice as many ticket staff than would normally be on duty) before making his way up to the southbound platform. Of course, he didn't do that because he was, "running late."

The station plan shows the ticket office on platform 1. According to LDB platform 1 is for Crewe & MIA. Is that incorrect? I've not been to Burnage so I apologise but all I can go by is Stations made Easy. Normally it is reliable!

There ar emany locations where passengers have to go across to another platform to buy a ticket, then cross back. It's something that should be allowed for.

Can you clarify that you are indeed saying that you allow time to cross to the non-ticket office side, in case the ticket office is shut and staff are at the other side? And can you clarify how much time should be allowed and if this is in addition to the queuing time?

In this instance, the OP states they arrived with 40 seconds to spare.

The OP does not help himself with that, but I see it as largely irrelevant. The question is not whether 40 seconds is sufficient or not (clearly it isn't) and I doubt that's worth debating. The question is whether or not customers can reasonably be expected to carry out the procedure of entering station, going to ticket office, exiting station, walking all the way round, entering station, queuing, exiting station, walking all the way round, re-entering station and boarding the train.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All ticket offices between MIA and MAN (HDG, GTY, EDY, BNA, MAU) all Ticket Offices are on the UP (Manchester bound) platforms

 

[yorkie]

All ticket offices between MIA and MAN (HDG,GTY, EDY,BNA,MAU) all Ticket Offices are on the UP (Manchester Bound) pLATFORMS

If that is correct, Stations Made Easy is incorrect; it looks like their labelling of Platforms 1 & 2 is the wrong way round?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If that is correct, Stations Made Easy is incorrect; it looks like their labelling of Platforms 1 & 2 is the wrong way round?

I can pretty much guarantee that after 10 years up and down that line!

 

[185]

Even though the guard is certainly right, senior people at GMPTE, Northern and it's predecessor FNW are the real culprits here. Many GM area booking offices are staffed for a couple of hours each day, no consideration was given to siteing them halfway between the two platforms, no money spent on making them secure (they should not be easily burgled), generally shoddy booking offices compared to Merseyside.

In circumstances such as that, I would always advise asking the guard on the platform as you board if you can pay where possible.

 

[AlterEgo]

If that is correct, Stations Made Easy is incorrect; it looks like their labelling of Platforms 1 & 2 is the wrong way round?

A quick check on Google Earth shows the ticket office is on the northbound platform - towards Manchester.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Even though the guard is certainly right, senior people at GMPTE, Northern and it's predecessor FNW are the real culprits here. Many GM area booking offices are staffed for a couple of hours each day, no consideration was given to siteing them halfway between the two platforms, no money spent on making them secure (they should not be easily burgled), generally shoddy booking offices compared to Merseyside.

In circumstances such as that, I would always advise asking the guard on the platform as you board if you can pay where possible.

These booking offices were (on this line) rebuilt in the 50s/60s with a so called futuristic design, Mauldeth Road burnt down in the early 90s (I believe) hence the difference, designs go out of date so quick they cannot keep up

 

[exile]

If you know your ticket office is closed, you're not going to allow time to buy a ticket. If you get to the station leaving your customary 1 minute leeway and to your surprise see revenue staff on the other platform - and your train is arriving - and the next train is in an hour.

BTW - the the NCoC only talks about a ticket office or ticket machine. Do G4 staff standing on the platform constitute a "ticket office"?

 

[Greenback]

Can you clarify that you are indeed saying that you allow time to cross to the non-ticket office side, in case the ticket office is shut and staff are at the other side? And can you clarify how much time should be allowed and if this is in addition to the queuing time?

What I am saying is that there are many places where people have to go to the opposte side of the station to buy a ticket, then return to where they arrived to actually catch their train.

I am not saying that if someone arrives at the usual location of the ticket office or TVM, then it is acceptable for them to incur a long walk to the new location and be penalised for it. But that does not appear to be the case at Burnage. The OP mentioned the ticket office is closed, but has not stated they went anywhere near it. It's perfectly possible, indeed I think it is implied in the post, that the OP did not attempt to go to the ticket office because they were running late and knew it was closed anyway.

The OP does not help himself with that, but I see it as largely irrelevant. The question is not whether 40 seconds is sufficient or not (clearly it isn't) and I doubt that's worth debating. The question is whether or not customers can reasonably be expected to carry out the procedure of entering station, going to ticket office, exiting station, walking all the way round, entering station, queuing, exiting station, walking all the way round, re-entering station and boarding the train.

Then we won't debate the 40 seconds!

What is worth debating is whether it's reasonable to allow enough time to locate the ticket office (if the station is an unfamiliar one), queue at the ticket office or TVM, buy a ticket, locate the platform for your train, and then go to that platform.

How long it might take is dependent on a wide range of factors, including the layout. I would always allow more time if the booking office was further away from my departure platform, or if I dont know where I need to go.

 

[snail]

My point is about access - I would have happily bought a ticket if there was a machine on my platform, there isn't and it is unbelievably long to get to the other platform - and for me that is just not right - 0.25km doesn't seem long plus the gradient and the weaving in between fences - but trust me it is.

There is a flaw in your argument here. If you there had been ticket facilities on the southbound platform and you stopped to buy a ticket 40 seconds before the train departed you would almost certainly have missed it.

Can I use the same excuse at Preston if I walk in from the car park on Platform 7 then use the underpass to get to my train from 3C? The distance from there to the ticket office and back to the platform is probably similar to that between platforms at Burnage.

 

[evil_hippo]

I disagree. Whilst this would be a nice idea in a perfect world, it would make it even more difficult to catch fare evaders!

No, it would not. It would simply be a matter of catching fare evaders at their seat, but providing discounted tickets to those who make a special effort to seek the conductor immediately and ask politely for a ticket.

In Helsinki, where penalty fares apply and roving inspectors are employed, there is a specific carriage in which the conductor works, and will sell all tickets. If you sit somewhere else, then you're judged to be a fare evader, and fined accordingly. The system works extremely well.

Where conductors must check the tickets throughout the train, requiring passengers to specifically seek the conductor is more appropriate. Either way, there are clear ways to establish intent to pay, which is what's important.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a flaw in your argument here. If you there had been ticket facilities on the southbound platform and you stopped to buy a ticket 40 seconds before the train departed you would almost certainly have missed it.

Again with the being entirely oblivious to the fact that everyone runs late sometimes, and that doesn't in itself make them a fare dodger.

I don't think that people shouldn't try to leave time to buy a ticket, but I feel that a passenger with a half decent excuse for running late should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[snail]

Again with the being entirely oblivious to the fact that everyone runs late sometimes, and that doesn't in itself make them a fare dodger.

I don't think that people shouldn't try to leave time to buy a ticket, but I feel that a passenger with a half decent excuse for running late should be given the benefit of the doubt.

The OP was given the benefit of the doubt by being sold a ticket. Not the cheapest available, but that's the penalty for being late. You have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[evil_hippo]

The OP was given the benefit of the doubt by being sold a ticket. Not the cheapest available, but that's the penalty for being late. You have to draw the line somewhere.

I'm not certain about whether the OP made an effort to immediately ask for a ticket or not. On a theoretical level, however, I do not believe that people should be penalised (by an amount of money that may be significant to them if they don't have a high income) if they do put the effort into showing that they wish to pay their fare.

 

[CarterUSM]

Again with the being entirely oblivious to the fact that everyone runs late sometimes, and that doesn't in itself make them a fare dodger.

I don't think that people shouldn't try to leave time to buy a ticket, but I feel that a passenger with a half decent excuse for running late should be given the benefit of the doubt.

To be honest, I do have a little sympathy for the OP , it is like a boot in the nads to not get your discount on top of running late. I still think the Conductor was on the whole correct, though discretion is to be welcomed on occasion . The problem I have found with discretion is that it can become expected every time once given. I do feel pretty rotten charging full standard fare at times myself, though there are ways to come and go, sometimes I offer a cheap ticket from the last unmanned station if appropriate, and agreeable to the passenger.

 

[bb21]

Likewise, given my experiences of G4S, it would have taken substantially longer than five minutes to buy - they would presumably have first listened to my request, then proceeded to sell me the incorrect fare and then got annoyed with me when I requested they correct the mistake.

I know that G4S staff are not the sharpest around, however is this a rant in general or have you done decent research into it? How often does it take for G4S staff to take more than 5 minutes to issue a correct ticket?

So in this instance the conductor was presumably "right" from a revenue protection point of view, but they might have exercised some discretion.

No. In this instance the OP has not allowed sufficient time to buy a ticket however you look at it. How is the guard supposed to exercise his discretion? All that will do is make it more difficult for other guards who stick to the rules.

Is there any practical reason( other than conflicting with the rule book) for a conductor not being able to offer a discounted fare if the passenger would normally be entiltled to a discounted fare bought at the ticket office?

No, but see the paragraph earlier. Maybe if the OP asked the guard before boarding it is more likely that the guard might agree to selling him a discounted ticket.

I am certainly not a fare evader.

No one is saying that you were. If the Northern guard thought that you were a fare evader, you wouldn't have been sold a ticket, but MG11-ed and then prosecuted.

My point is about access - I would have happily bought a ticket if there was a machine on my platform

Seriously? You only allowed 40 seconds and I doubt that it would have been sufficient. If you said that you arrived a few minutes beforehand and it was not enough to cross to the other side, then I think your argument about the lack of a ticket machine on this side might stand a chance.

Travelling or buying a ticket shouldn't be complicated - at all - but it is when there is a total lack of facilities.

I agree in general, however I don't think that it is relevant here.

Devils advocate: Would a disabled passenger get an exception?

No, I doubt it.

And yes, the ticket office was closed/boarded up.

I think a question that's been asked by quite a few people hasn't been answered.

Are there notices informing passengers of the temporary ticket purchasing facilities over the other side?

In addition,

How long have G4S staff been selling tickets from the other side and has it been a regular feature everyday?

Do you know about the facilities over the other side beforehand prior to today?

On a side note: I am suprised, if true, Northern Rail guards don't get commission...

Not on prosecutions. Ticket sales I believe is 5% or thereabouts.

Even though the guard is certainly right, senior people at GMPTE, Northern and it's predecessor FNW are the real culprits here. Many GM area booking offices are staffed for a couple of hours each day, no consideration was given to siteing them halfway between the two platforms, no money spent on making them secure (they should not be easily burgled), generally shoddy booking offices compared to Merseyside.

In circumstances such as that, I would always advise asking the guard on the platform as you board if you can pay where possible.

Yes I agree here.

If you know your ticket office is closed, you're not going to allow time to buy a ticket. If you get to the station leaving your customary 1 minute leeway and to your surprise see revenue staff on the other platform - and your train is arriving - and the next train is in an hour.

BTW - the the NCoC only talks about a ticket office or ticket machine. Do G4 staff standing on the platform constitute a "ticket office"?

It is always a dangerous tactic to leave just a 1/2-minute margin before departure. Even someone as stingy with time as me would generally leave a good 4/5 minutes if I have a ticket in hand, or another couple of minutes if I need to use the booking office or TOD.

No, it would not. It would simply be a matter of catching fare evaders at their seat, but providing discounted tickets to those who make a special effort to seek the conductor immediately and ask politely for a ticket.

Do you think that it is feasible with 50 people queueing up outside the rear cab waiting for the guard to show up and as a result blocking the doorway at stations down the journey? I think the Finnish example is workable in certain areas, but again, how practical is it when most of the stations along the line are unstaffed / lack ticket purchasing facilities and then all passengers squeeze into one carriage of a 3-car train asking to buy a ticket?

The solution is keeping the ticket office open for longer / more TVMs. Nevertheless I can't see it happening any time soon in many areas.

Again with the being entirely oblivious to the fact that everyone runs late sometimes, and that doesn't in itself make them a fare dodger.

It's not ground for the guard to show discretion either.

I don't think that people shouldn't try to leave time to buy a ticket, but I feel that a passenger with a half decent excuse for running late should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Do you think the OP's excuse is decent enough?

Look, I understand that it is annoying to have to pay full fare, especially if you are not particularly well off. However getting to the station just 40 seconds before the train leaves just isn't a good tactic. Had the train been on time, would you still have caught it? If not, what difference does it make here whether you had enough time to cross over to the other side or not? (You would have missed it anyway.) Were there any particular reason why you were late? Did you use any other road transport prior to reaching the railway station?

By all means write to Northern and good luck in getting the difference back. I feel that you will need it. Whatever the outcome, learn your lesson and leave home just that bit earlier next time and you wouldn't then have to 'leg it' and would feel a world better.

 

[evil_hippo]

The problem I have found with discretion is that it can become expected every time once given.

That's quite true on a number of Northern Rail routes that I'm familiar with. Leaving certain important staffed stations, the conductor will continue to go down the train issuing a good number of discounted tickets, without asking "why the hell didn't you get a ticket?", and expecting an explanation. There are likely to be reasons, such as arriving from a connection with little time to buy a ticket, or connecting from other public transport, that merit discretion, but that level of discretion seems to have grown into never expecting people to follow the protocol of buying a ticket if you possibly can.

All of this, I think, points to a need for consistent and well-publicised standards on the rights and responsibilities or the TOCs and passengers, to avoid these decisions being left to the personality of individual staff members.

They could look like "passengers not holding a ticket when boarding at a staffed station must locate the conductor and request a ticket; otherwise they will be treated as intending not to pay"; "passengers are expected to detour to visit a permanent ticket office or vending machines, but not temporary facilities that have been in place for less than thirty days", and so on.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Look, I understand that it is annoying to have to pay full fare, especially if you are not particularly well off. However getting to the station just 40 seconds before the train leaves just isn't a good tactic. Had the train been on time, would you still have caught it? If not, what difference does it make here whether you had enough time to cross over to the other side or not? (You would have missed it anyway.) Were there any particular reason why you were late? Did you use any other road transport prior to reaching the railway station?

It would be a very good day that I left more than 40 seconds to make a train at Burley Park - there are no ticket issuing facilities, and trains are never early and at least 50% of the time are 1-2 minutes late.

I know these two facts, and base my routine upon them. There is nothing wrong with that; many people build up precisely scheduled routines based upon the conditions they encounter day-to-day.

Were there normally a ticket machine available, then it would be well and good for the OP to leave enough time to use it. The OP would know that, and may well have done things differently as a result. But there wasn't. And to build your plans around the chance of at any moment encountering a diversion of several hundred metres just in case some people happened to appear on the opposite platform to sell tickets would just be silly.

 

[island]

In Helsinki, where penalty fares apply and roving inspectors are employed, there is a specific carriage in which the conductor works, and will sell all tickets. If you sit somewhere else, then you're judged to be a fare evader, and fined accordingly. The system works extremely well.

Belgium operates a similar system — cheapest to buy in advance at the station; approach the conductor after you board and you get a higher price, but the cost is higher still if you wait until he comes around.

 

[evil_hippo]

Belgium operates a similar system — cheapest to buy in advance at the station; approach the conductor after you board and you get a higher price, but the cost is higher still if you wait until he comes around.

In Helsinki, you pay no extra, but it is indeed similar in spirit - things are more or less alright as long as you demonstrate that you want to be honest and pay for your trip. The British railway seems, on the other hand, seems to treat honest people like criminals a lot of the time, and I find that incredibly distasteful.

 

[Greenback]

In this instance the OP has not allowed sufficient time to buy a ticket however you look at it.{/QUOTE]

Precisely.

No one is saying that you were. If the Northern guard thought that you were a fare evader, you wouldn't have been sold a ticket, but MG11-ed and then prosecuted.

I;m not sure where this idea off are evading has come from...

If you said that you arrived a few minutes beforehand and it was not enough to cross to the other side, then I think your argument about the lack of a ticket machine on this side might stand a chance.

It would have been a better argument if the ticket office was not also on the other side before it got burnt. If the OP had got to his platform, expecting there to be a ticket office there only to find it had moved, it is a slightly different argument. But I maintain there would have been no time to buy a ticket anyway.

Are there notices informing passengers of the temporary ticket purchasing facilities over the other side?

In addition,

How long have G4S staff been selling tickets from the other side and has it been a regular feature everyday?

Do you know about the facilities over the other side beforehand prior to today?

It appears from other posts that the ticket facilities have always been on the other side. The only temporary aspect is that it's RPI's rather than the burnt out office that are issuing the tickets.

It is always a dangerous tactic to leave just a 1/2-minute margin before departure. Even someone as stingy with time as me would generally leave a good 4/5 minutes if I have a ticket in hand, or another couple of minutes if I need to use the booking office or TOD.

As would I. And if I miss a train because I haven't left enough time, then it's my fault and no one else's.

without asking "why the hell didn't you get a ticket?", and expecting an explanation.

I see no mention of any of this in the OP.

All of this, I think, points to a need for consistent and well-publicised standards on the rights and responsibilities or the TOCs and passengers, to avoid these decisions being left to the personality of individual staff members.

They are well publicised and they have certainly been applied correctly in this case. Rights and responsibilities work both ways. The passenger has the responsibility to allow plenty of time to buy a ticket if they want to avail themselves of railcard discounts.

They also have the right to travel without a ticket and buy on board without a discount if they prefer.

They could look like "passengers not holding a ticket when boarding at a staffed station must locate the conductor and request a ticket; otherwise they will be treated as intending not to pay"; "passengers are expected to detour to visit a permanent ticket office or vending machines, but not temporary facilities that have been in place for less than thirty days", and so on.

Why overly complicate things? It's difficult enough with different rules and policies on every TOC.

Were there normally a ticket machine available, then it would be well and good for the OP to leave enough time to use it. The OP would know that, and may well have done things differently as a result. But there wasn't. And to build your plans around the chance of at any moment encountering a diversion of several hundred metres just in case some people happened to appear on the opposite platform to sell tickets would just be silly.

The people on th eplatform have replaced the ticket offic ewhich has been burnt out. They have not just 'appeared'. If they were not there, Northern would be rightly accused of not providing the service they should. And I'm very sorry, but if anyone fails to build time into their routine to cater for the unexpected, then they have only themselves to blame when something goes wrong.

In this case, the OP did not even build in time to buy a ticket.

In Helsinki, you pay no extra, but it is indeed similar in spirit - things are more or less alright as long as you demonstrate that you want to be honest and pay for your trip. The British railway seems, on the other hand, seems to treat honest people like criminals a lot of the time, and I find that incredibly distasteful.

No one has been treated like a criminal, and no one has been accused of not intending to pay the fare. All that has happened is that they have been unable to take advantage of a discount because it is only available before boarding, if ticket purchasing facilities exist there. Which they did. Simple.

 

[exile]

No-one's answered my point - is 2 blokes on a platform a "ticket office"?

 

[bb21]

No-one's answered my point - is 2 blokes on a platform a "ticket office"?

No but it is an 'opportunity to buy'.