Burscough Curves reinstated....so what happens?

[PR1Berske]

Pure Crayonista speculation.

I'd love to know what people think what could happen were one or both Burscough Curves to be reinstated.


My tuppence worth.

*Southport to Ormskirk and Southport to Wigan (and beyond) fit into each hour of peak time timetable, enabling the Ormskirk train to stop all stations, Wigan to be semi-fast, maybe calling only at Appley Bridge, Parbold, Burscough, Southport.

*Midge Hall and Mill Dam Lane to be built

*Preston to Southport direct, to fit into existing Ormskirk timetable. Maybe only to call at Burscough and Meols Cop

*Merseyrail to be extended to Burscough Junction.

What says and suggests the forum?

 

[73001]

Reinstate both curves, extend every other Merseyrail train from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge. Preston to Southport as a 'fast' train with limited stops as suggested - probably hourly and would provide a decent alternative to the bus, end to end - and Preston to Ormskirk as now. This would provide a half hourly service from Preston to Ormskirk to Liverpool with a change at either Burscough Bridge or Ormskirk depend which train you were on. Southport to Wigan and onwards as now with maybe a bit of jiggling of times to fit the others in. I doubt the need for Southport to Ormskirk direct as you'd have 3 trains an hour from Southport to Burscough and 2 from there to Ormskirk.
My parents and grandparents are from Burscough and I spent many hours watching and riding on both lines and I would love for them to be reconnected some time. I hope I live long enough to see it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd go for a slightly cheaper option, being more realistic.

Reinstate both curves but mothball the direct line over the bridge.

Rebuild Burscough Bridge station completely, taking over the present car park which could be resited. Two 130m-ish (or whatever the length of 2 of the new Stadler units is) island platforms with two through lines and two "bays" on the outside, the southernmost one for Merseyrail, the northernmost one for Northern (though due to the bridge itself they will both need to run on the main running lines for a short distance). Accessible footbridge with lifts. This would take a few months, so buses in the meantime, but would be well worth it.

Service pattern to be:

2tph Merseyrail Liverpool-Mill Dam Lane (big housing development round there now, so far more call for it than there was)-Burscough Junction-Burscough Bridge. I worked out a while ago a timetable that could deliver this with the single line remaining as a single line, though it would require a layover siding at Ormskirk as it couldn't *quite* cope with the single line all the way through from the junction just south of Ormskirk station. Merseyrail units to run on batteries if third rail cannot be extended.

1tph Burscough Bridge to Preston using a single DMU. Or as a possible alternative, add a second DMU and operate a Preston to Southport hourly service. If this was done, time it for good connections with the Merseyrail service so far as feasible, most importantly towards Preston if both can't be delivered. Ideally use high acceleration DMUs, in which case move the calls at New Lane and Bescar Lane to this service as request stops (all trains call on request).

Through Southport to Manchester service continues as at present.

Timings tweaked where possible to improve connections.

 

[Gareth]

I've thought along similar lines before but feel a direct Southport-Ormskirk service is probably needed more than Southport-Preston. Certainly, campaigners are much more vocal about the former. I'd leave Merseyrail as it is and have a new hourly DMU service via the south curve to Southport, on top of the current now-hourly service to Preston. The new service would take over the New Lane and Bescar Lane calls from the Southport--Wigan/Manchester services. I looked at this a while ago and from memory I think you could have a single 1tph diagram going Southport-Ormskirk-Preston using two units and with no need to redouble any of the line. Sure, going from Southport to Preston via Ormskirk won't be as quick as direct via the north curve but it would be hell of a lot better than the current situation and it's ultimately a compromise as I don't reckon demand would currently justify more than one extra tph between Southport and Burscough.

 

[Pumperkin]

I would have loved a Ormskirk - Southport service when at Edge Hill Uni. Had do go via Sandhills IIRC, which when being refurbed meant going through to Liverpool Central instead :/

 

[MarkyT]

I've thought along similar lines before but feel a direct Southport-Ormskirk service is probably needed more than Southport-Preston. Certainly, campaigners are much more vocal about the former. I'd leave Merseyrail as it is and have a new hourly DMU service via the south curve to Southport, on top of the current now-hourly service to Preston. The new service would take over the New Lane and Bescar Lane calls from the Southport--Wigan/Manchester services. I looked at this a while ago and from memory I think you could have a single 1tph diagram going Southport-Ormskirk-Preston using two units and with no need to redouble any of the line. Sure, going from Southport to Preston via Ormskirk won't be as quick as direct via the north curve but it would be hell of a lot better than the current situation and it's ultimately a compromise as I don't reckon demand would currently justify more than one extra tph between Southport and Burscough.

Good idea in principle but unfortunately I estimate it would about 1hr 3m one way all stations from Preston to Southport, or 59m omitting New Lane and Bescar Lane. That is allowing 5m for reversal at Ormskirk and 2m between the Burscoughs. Clearly too tight to do hourly with two units. I used typical WTT times from RTT.

 

[73001]

And it's also longer than the X2 bus which is about 48 mins I think.

 

[MarkyT]

And it's also longer than the X2 bus which is about 48 mins I think.

Direct via the Burscough north curve could beat that easily, even calling at all stations:

This would be a reliable journey time even at peak times of course and could give much better service at the two smaller stations which have some large gaps in today's timetable. Frequent connections could be available to Ormskirk from Burscough Bridge if Merseyrail was extended there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, you wouldn't need the Curve to give Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane a better service. It would be a lot easier as a whole just to have one of the two trains per hour call at all of them on request, giving a more consistent regular interval timetable.

Mind you, I suppose all three of them serve so little that you could probably easily justify closure.

 

[adrock1976]

Where would the trains be timetabled to pass each other in opposite directions bearing in mind I believe the Preston - Burscough (both stations assuming curves are reinstated) - Ormskirk section is single track?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where would the trains be timetabled to pass each other in opposite directions bearing in mind I believe the Preston - Burscough (both stations assuming curves are reinstated) - Ormskirk section is single track?

As a Preston-Burscough service would be possible hourly with one unit with acceptable layovers, you shouldn't need to pass on that section of line. However you have got Rufford and the WCML. The present "circuit" has trains passing on the WCML.

As the line isn't used for railtours and Rufford has not been used for passing of timetabled passenger trains since the early 1990s, it amazes me that it still hasn't been plainlined and the level crossing converted to automatic operation, either AHB or treadle-activated full barrier as seen e.g. at Porthmadog. Would save the cost of the signaller.

 

[MarkyT]

As a Preston-Burscough service would be possible hourly with one unit with acceptable layovers, you shouldn't need to pass on that section of line. However you have got Rufford and the WCML. The present "circuit" has trains passing on the WCML.

As the line isn't used for railtours and Rufford has not been used for passing of timetabled passenger trains since the early 1990s, it amazes me that it still hasn't been plainlined and the level crossing converted to automatic operation, either AHB or treadle-activated full barrier as seen e.g. at Porthmadog. Would save the cost of the signaller.

Interesting. Perhaps a good candidate for a AFBCL (Automatic Full Barrier Crossing Locally monitored). Low speed both directions as all trains stop. Straight approach so good visibility for local monitoring. Four barrier layout retained with obstacle detection provided.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To be fair, you wouldn't need the Curve to give Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane a better service. It would be a lot easier as a whole just to have one of the two trains per hour call at all of them on request, giving a more consistent regular interval timetable.

Mind you, I suppose all three of them serve so little that you could probably easily justify closure.

Obviously we are not in a time where it is politically acceptable to be closing anything passenger railway wise but it's true these stations are very lightly used. A handful of regular users at the two Lanes but Hoscar merits some sort of celebration anytime a passenger boards or alights there!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously we are not in a time where it is politically acceptable to be closing anything passenger railway wise but it's true these stations are very lightly used. A handful of regular users at the two Lanes but Hoscar merits some sort of celebration anytime a passenger boards or alights there!

Interestingly I used to have a friend years ago while at school who lived in the farmhouse at Greenings, about a mile north of Bescar Lane. I doubt they ever used the train!

As for the people of Carr Cross and Bescar, if they want public transport the bus from the main A570 to Southport or Ormskirk (corrected) is proably more use, and there's nowt for a long way north of Bescar Lane bar that farmhouse.

New Lane is maybe a little better with Martin Mere a mile away and a large industrial estate a kilometre or so south, but I suspect it's not a fun walk on a road with no pavement. Hoscar appears to serve no purpose whatsoever.

 

[Gareth]

Good idea in principle but unfortunately I estimate it would about 1hr 3m one way all stations from Preston to Southport, or 59m omitting New Lane and Bescar Lane. That is allowing 5m for reversal at Ormskirk and 2m between the Burscoughs. Clearly too tight to do hourly with two units. I used typical WTT times from RTT.

That’s a bummer, if so. Think I was using NRE when I looked at this. Using NRE, it seems it takes 4 minutes from Ormskirk to Burscough Junction and 15 or 18 minutes from Burscough Bridge to Southport, depending if the service calls at the Lanes or not. Add 2 minutes from Junction to Bridge and the total journey should come near to 21/24 minutes. Serve the Lanes every other hour and assume a 5 minute turnaround at Southport and you should get a round trip to and from Ormskirk of around 50 minutes*.

If that could be achieved reliably then after a 5 minute wait at Ormskirk, there’d be 5 extra minutes to play with for a service to Preston and back. It may well still prove too tight. NRE has Ormskirk to Preston as anywhere between 29 minutes and 33. Not sure why it varies but it seems the difference occurs between Croston and Preston. Maybe it’s pathing into Preston and what platform it takes for the onward journey to Blackpool South.

Adrock is right about where passing would occur. It looks like the two units would pass around Ormskirk to Burscough Junction. That section may well have to be redoubled, which would add to the cost. If Southport-Preston via Ormskirk wouldn’t be competitive with the bus, then it may not be worth the bother of linking to two rail services. Ormskirk-Southport could be a stand-alone service which could be timetabled to be at Ormskirk while the other service is at Preston. That could be done without any redoubling, leaving only the south curve as a new piece of infrastructure.

* on the assumption that one unit would call at the the Lanes in one direction and skip them on the return leg, whilst the other unit does the opposite.

 

[Bletchleyite]

* on the assumption that one unit would call at the the Lanes in one direction and skip them on the return leg, whilst the other unit does the opposite.

Serve them hourly as request stops or close them. Complicating the timetable away from hourly clockface just because of stations that barely anyone ever considers using is not worth it.

 

[adrock1976]

I have had a go at creating a clock face timetable based on the Burscough South curve being reinstated, with the file attached below.

I have managed to just about fit in the passing point at Rufford and the vicinity of Farrington Curve Junction. Had the passing loop been at Croston rather than Rufford, the timings could be better I think. Ormskirk - Burscough Junction (and to the diverging South Curve) I believe could easily be double tracked, as it appeared to be at one time.

Both routes from Burscough Junction to Preston and Southport has a frequency of every 30 minutes, with around 20 and 10 minutes layover respectively before the train resumes its southbound journey to Liverpool Central. I have based the Liverpool Central - Ormskirk on the existing timings northbound, with the southbound timings from Ormskirk being a couple of minutes later so as to fit in the timings of the single track section between Burscough Junction and Farrington Curve Junction. As the timetable I have made does not have trains passing each other on the South Curve, this section could be got away with being single track.

The Burscough Junction - Southport section has alternate trains calling at New Lane and Bescar Lane (alternating), therefore both have a 60 minute frequency. I have calculated that (assuming no double formed sets) the suggested timetable would require 20 trains in service, which would alternate between the routes e.g. Liverpool Central - Southport - Liverpool Central - Preston - Liverpool Central and vice-versa. Although Merseyrail prefer to keep trains on each arm, an exception could be made here being as the common section of route between Liverpool Central and Burscough Junction is lengthy, and with the layover at Preston and Southport, this would help for robustness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not convinced you could ever justify more than hourly on the Preston-Burscough DMU - but other than that that works.

 

[Bevan Price]

Interestingly I used to have a friend years ago while at school who lived in the farmhouse at Greenings, about a mile north of Bescar Lane. I doubt they ever used the train!

As for the people of Carr Cross and Bescar, if they want public transport the bus from the main A570 to Southport or Ormskirk (corrected) is proably more use, and there's nowt for a long way north of Bescar Lane bar that farmhouse.

New Lane is maybe a little better with Martin Mere a mile away and a large industrial estate a kilometre or so south, but I suspect it's not a fun walk on a road with no pavement. Hoscar appears to serve no purpose whatsoever.

I suspect that Hoscar, New Lane & Bescar Lane were fortunate to survive the Marples-Beeching era. It was maybe only the difficulty of serving those areas with alternative bus services that let them remain open. I doubt that any of them justify hourly services, and perhaps they are lucky not to have the same level of service as Reddish South & Denton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that Hoscar, New Lane & Bescar Lane were fortunate to survive the Marples-Beeching era. It was maybe only the difficulty of serving those areas with alternative bus services that let them remain open. I doubt that any of them justify hourly services, and perhaps they are lucky not to have the same level of service as Reddish South & Denton.

I would agree, they are not at all dissimilar to some of the Marston Vale stations, but unlike say Kempston Hardwick where I wouldn't be surprised to see a big housing development within 10-15 years or so, there isn't that demand in the North West so they will stay rural.

The reason I'd put them hourly on request (or alternating skip-stop two-hourly on request) is that I am, as you probably know, a great fan of completely consistent clockface timetabling on the Merseyrail[1] model. This can't be achieved with "three times a day" or "Parly" type services. The only other option to keep that is closure.

[1] I know they've stuffed up the Southport and Chester lines, but the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines are still pretty much spot on.

 

[S&CLER]

Not convinced you could ever justify more than hourly on the Preston-Burscough DMU - but other than that that works.

One problem is that most of the passengers on the present service want to go to Ormskirk itself and would probably not take kindly to changing at Burscough, but would switch to the car. FWIW my own view is that the only realistic hope of any link between the 2 lines is in a West Lancs resignalling scheme. A single workstation could cope with Meols Cop-Gathurst and Ormskirk-Farington Curve, plus the north curve. Redoubling from Farington Curve to Midge Hall would be desirable, and maybe an IBS at Bescar Lane to split the section from Burscough Bridge to Meols Cop. Resignalling is at any rate more likely to happen eventually than electrification, which seems a pipedream given the difficult site at Wallgate. At the moment there are 4 block posts and one gate box on the 2 lines taken together, plus numerous crossings. I'm realistic enough to know that there are other candidates higher up the queue for resignalling, even in the NW (e.g. the Cumbrian Coast).
As for a future service pattern, my own preference would be for hourly Ormskirk-Preston-Blackpool S, hourly Southport-Preston-Colne and if possible hourly Blackpool S-Colne (that would need a passing loop at Ansdell as well). That should work better than the 3-legged diagrams lately operated and give each leg a half-hourly stopper( as far as Burscough Bridge/Junction on the southern leg). Southport-Ormskirk is bus traffic (I do it twice a week). If Ormskirk ever does become a through station again, it could usefully be moved 200 yards south in the cutting to be integrated with the currently dismal bus station. See Nelson for an example of what Lancs CC could do when it put its mind to it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One problem is that most of the passengers on the present service want to go to Ormskirk itself and would probably not take kindly to changing at Burscough, but would switch to the car.

I'm not sure that's actually true. If you go to Ormskirk you'll see that plenty of people connect from Merseyrail onto the West Lancashire Line. Connections are no great issue when the service is frequent, just like people switch between Tube lines all the time.

I reckon people would take that in return for vastly improved connecting services to Southport and Wigan/Manchester, anyway.

I'd also say the busiest station on the line is Croston, by some margin. I have in the past wondered if operating Ormskirk-Preston-Croston-Preston-Ormskirk... would make sense, though the hourly upgrade is of course better than that.

 

[S&CLER]

I'm not sure that's actually true. If you go to Ormskirk you'll see that plenty of people connect from Merseyrail onto the West Lancashire Line. Connections are no great issue when the service is frequent, just like people switch between Tube lines all the time.

I reckon people would take that in return for vastly improved connecting services to Southport and Wigan/Manchester, anyway.

I'd also say the busiest station on the line is Croston, by some margin. I have in the past wondered if operating Ormskirk-Preston-Croston-Preston-Ormskirk... would make sense, though the hourly upgrade is of course better than that.

I was relying on a survey conducted in May 2019 (see OPSTA newsletter 148, p. 7). This found that the median daily (M-F) passenger count was 750, a decline since the hourly service was introduced, with a reduction in peak pax, especially from Croston and in through pax to Merseyrail. The majority of outward journeys were northbound. Two-thirds of pax set out from or went to Ormskirk. Journeys between intermediate stations were few. 5 per cent of pax were connecting for East Lancs. 7 per cent of pax expressed a desire for Sunday services. I hope these figures give us a more precise idea than merely impressionistic findings would do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I wonder if those reductions relate to the reliability issues the line has had since going hourly and the availability of alternatives?

 

[S&CLER]

Thanks. I wonder if those reductions relate to the reliability issues the line has had since going hourly and the availability of alternatives?

Yes, that was certainly the reason given. Just in case you haven't seen it,I started a thread about the impact of the newly opened Penwortham bypass, but no one has yet replied with any definite information.

 

[Meerkat]

Merseyrail units to run on batteries if third rail cannot be extended.

Thought that had been abandoned apart from pottering around depots?

To be fair, you wouldn't need the Curve to give Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane a better service

Those three are very high up my “why haven’t these already been closed!?” list!

As an outsider I think Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge and Preston-Southport are the obvious services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an outsider I think Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge and Preston-Southport are the obvious services.

That would I think work.