Bus 48 Northwich - Frodsham

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frodshamfella

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This rural route lost its Saturday service a few years ago unfortunately. A more recent change is on Wednesdays the service for part of the day is numbered 48A and is routed via Cuddington. Morning and afternoon services revert back to 48 to cater for schools. Service is every 2 hours.
 
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TheSel

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A far cry, indeed, from the service level of 1976.

Attached, which I just happened to have to hand, having been asked to look up something else in the area this morning.

E47 E48 June 1976.jpg
 

Llandudno

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A far cry, indeed, from the service level of 1976.

Attached, which I just happened to have to hand, having been asked to look up something else in the area this morning.

View attachment 87466
Absolutely including evening journeys!

Presumably the current service is subsidised by the Council, but once the frequency and routing becomes so irregular then even fewer passengers will use it.

Perhaps some kind of a dial a ride of Welsh Fflecsi service is the best option, alternatively, and perhaps more cost effective is give residents in the area affected a discount taxi voucher?
 

M60lad

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Not to sure if its still the case but as far as I know the driver who does 48 and its varient is still the same driver who did it when GHA ran it.
 

frodshamfella

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A far cry, indeed, from the service level of 1976.

Attached, which I just happened to have to hand, having been asked to look up something else in the area this morning.

View attachment 87466

Certainly is, could only dream of that now, particularly late evening service which is such a rarity these days.

Not to sure if its still the case but as far as I know the driver who does 48 and its varient is still the same driver who did it when GHA ran it.

I don't know about that, my mum uses it to go from Weaverham to Frodsham for the market. I have used it myself too from time to time. Was a pity that the Saturday service went, and as said, the less frequent it is, the fewer people rely on it in the end.

I'm not sure how the Wednesday only 48A has been received, it was requested by locals apparently .
 

TheSel

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Hey up. Lads!

Looking through Crosville's 'No 1 Area' Timetable dated 23 January 1966 until further notice, I've found the attached.

North Western Road Car service 137, Frodsham - Northwich, and it's hourly even on a Sunday - well, after lunch, anyway! For some reason, the timetable in the other direction is missing from the book. There are no pages missing, but the TT is only shown in this direction.

Unless or until someone (me?) can find the TT in the other direction, we'll have to assume there were balancing workings the other way, probably something like 0720, 0805 ... 2130 Monday - Friday, 0720, 0740, 0830 ... 2130 Saturday and 1320 hourly to 2020 then 2130 Sunday from Northwich.

Frod - Nwch 137.jpg
 

carlberry

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Hey up. Lads!

Looking through Crosville's 'No 1 Area' Timetable dated 23 January 1966 until further notice, I've found the attached.

North Western Road Car service 137, Frodsham - Northwich, and it's hourly even on a Sunday - well, after lunch, anyway! For some reason, the timetable in the other direction is missing from the book. There are no pages missing, but the TT is only shown in this direction.

Unless or until someone (me?) can find the TT in the other direction, we'll have to assume there were balancing workings the other way, probably something like 0720, 0805 ... 2130 Monday - Friday, 0720, 0740, 0830 ... 2130 Saturday and 1320 hourly to 2020 then 2130 Sunday from Northwich.
The June 1966 timetable did have both pages! At the time of course running Sunday morning services would have been unthinkable (except to a few churches).
 

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markymark2000

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The 48 service is a nice little run it seems. It is unfortunately quite rural and there isn't a huge amount of demand for the longer distance service. The 48A was brought about at least in part because Delamere doesn't have service and while the area is a bit posh, it's a decent sized estate to not have a bus. Given there is no time penalty, it made sense to have Delamere on there to at a bare minimum, provide a service.

From what I have seen, heard and know of the 48, it is kind of held on by the school traffic. Outside of that, demand is not the highest. It's a difficult route though as there isn't really any way to massively increase passenger numbers. It's kind of stuck to deal with the existing passengers and that's it.
 

TheSel

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The 48 service is a nice little run it seems. It is unfortunately quite rural and there isn't a huge amount of demand for the longer distance service. The 48A was brought about at least in part because Delamere doesn't have service and while the area is a bit posh, it's a decent sized estate to not have a bus. Given there is no time penalty, it made sense to have Delamere on there to at a bare minimum, provide a service.
Well, it serves the Delamere Park Estate, but that's a district of Cuddington - not Delamere which is another two or three miles west.

Map below from StreetMap. Delamere itself is about a mile south of the Railway Station.

1608738917052.png
 

jp4712

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The 1967 North Western timetable is available on the link below, services 137 and 138 provided the Northwich - Frosham service. Annoyingly I can’t make the link point to exactly the right place, but look for the North Western timetable and then the 137/138 service within.

 

frodshamfella

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Hey up. Lads!

Looking through Crosville's 'No 1 Area' Timetable dated 23 January 1966 until further notice, I've found the attached.

North Western Road Car service 137, Frodsham - Northwich, and it's hourly even on a Sunday - well, after lunch, anyway! For some reason, the timetable in the other direction is missing from the book. There are no pages missing, but the TT is only shown in this direction.

Unless or until someone (me?) can find the TT in the other direction, we'll have to assume there were balancing workings the other way, probably something like 0720, 0805 ... 2130 Monday - Friday, 0720, 0740, 0830 ... 2130 Saturday and 1320 hourly to 2020 then 2130 Sunday from Northwich.

View attachment 87534

Thanks for that, things really have gone backwards with bus services around here these days.

The June 1966 timetable did have both pages! At the time of course running Sunday morning services would have been unthinkable (except to a few churches).

A Sunday afternoon service, the luxury. Not even on a Saturday now.


I actually live in Dutton Cheshire. Off the A533. We have no bus, and haven't in the 15 years I've lived here, but I'm sure there must have been a regular Runcorn to Northwich service once.
 
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Westwardbound

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Thanks for that, things really have gone backwards with bus services around here these days.



A Sunday afternoon service, the luxury. Not even on a Saturday now.


I actually live in Dutton Cheshire. Off the A533. We have no bus, and haven't in the 15 years I've lived here, but I'm sure there must have been a regular Runcorn to Northwich service once.
I lived in Runcorn from 1974 to 1984 and I'm pretty sure there was a Runcorn - Northwich bus service then.
 

jp4712

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Apologies for the poor resolution, but the pic shows that the 144 Northwich - Runcorn ran every two hours in 1967.
 

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TheSel

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Yeah - Runcorn - Northwich was 144, later (once taken on by Crosville) H44.

Will dig out a timetable, but not today.
Many thanks to @jp4712 for the 1967 version. As promised, please find below the Runcorn - Dutton - Northwich timetables from:

1976 - still every two hours, including a Sunday service (after noon)
H44 - 1976.jpg

1983 - every two hours, but much more limited hours of operation, and only operating through to Northwich on Saturdays. On Mondays to Friday a connection for Northwich was made at Bartington.
H44 - 1983.jpg

and 1991, by which time it was down to a handful of 'socially necessary' journeys.
H44 - 1991.jpg

I've also tracked down a 1966 timetable for a service from Chester (Sundays only) via Frodsham (additionally Wednesdays) to Dutton Hospital - the C32.

C32 - 1966.jpg

Hope this helps.
 

RT4038

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The June 1966 timetable did have both pages! At the time of course running Sunday morning services would have been unthinkable (except to a few churches).

Sunday morning services were (largely) suspended nationwide as a wartime fuel saving measure, and many were never re-instated after hostilities ceased.
 

frodshamfella

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Yeah - Runcorn - Northwich was 144, later (once taken on by Crosville) H44.

Will dig out a timetable, but not today.

Thank you. Really interesting, wish we had a service now. Frodsham is my normal destination for shopping also evening for meals out. This normally requires one of us driving, so the other can have a drink with a meal. Other wise your adding taxi both ways which as about £25-30 to a night out. How a bus would make a difference to that.

Many thanks to @jp4712 for the 1967 version. As promised, please find below the Runcorn - Dutton - Northwich timetables from:

1976 - still every two hours, including a Sunday service (after noon)
View attachment 87663

1983 - every two hours, but much more limited hours of operation, and only operating through to Northwich on Saturdays. On Mondays to Friday a connection for Northwich was made at Bartington.
View attachment 87665

and 1991, by which time it was down to a handful of 'socially necessary' journeys.
View attachment 87666

I've also tracked down a 1966 timetable for a service from Chester (Sundays only) via Frodsham (additionally Wednesdays) to Dutton Hospital - the C32.

View attachment 87667

Hope this helps.

I think Dutton had an isolation hospital at that time, I guess the service would have ran to corresponde to visiting hours.
 
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markymark2000

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I am surprised that a Runcorn to Northwich bus hasn't come about in recent times. I think it has potential really.
 

matthewbirkett

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Dobson's of Northwich were running two routes Northwich-Runcorn until at least 2001. The H44 via Dutton (timetable above) and the E48 via Frodsham and Kingsley- like the 48 service today. The routes were interworked at the Runcorn end, I think requiring two buses- usually Talbot Pullmans.
Anthony's Travel has the contract for a period in the mid 2000's, however it was Frodsham-Northwich only by this date.
There was also, very briefly around 2009/10, an 85 Northwich-Dutton-Frodsham service operated by Fairway Travel of St Helens around a school contract. Didn't last more than a few months.
 
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markymark2000

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Do we have any info on the loadings? Why did these services stop? Funding, low usage, companies going bust and service wasn't replaced?
 

peters

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Not to sure if its still the case but as far as I know the driver who does 48 and its varient is still the same driver who did it when GHA ran it.

If that is the case it would mean a GHA driver transferred to Howards, when GHA were still operating and it would mean the driver subsequently transferred from Howards to Warrington's Own Buses.

Do we have any info on the loadings? Why did these services stop? Funding, low usage, companies going bust and service wasn't replaced?

The route is contracted to be operated by a large bus because it carries a significant number of Weaverham High pupils on certain journeys. Leaving Northwich it duplicates the far more frequent number 1 route between Northwich and Weaverham, so other than the odd bus pass holder everyone who boards at Northwich is travelling to beyond Weaverham.

GHA were known to bid to run contracts for significantly less than other operators and to run routes commercially that no other operator would consider running commercially. It meant when they went out-of-business councils had to make the decision whether to increase bus subsides (when they hadn't budgeted for it) or to withdraw or cutback services. Losing the Saturday services on contracted routes was an easy way of retaining a bus but without affecting the council's budget.

A more recent change is on Wednesdays the service for part of the day is numbered 48A and is routed via Cuddington.

I understand that change relates to reinstating a bus service via Delamere Park, which previously was served by a variation of the 82 service.
 

frodshamfella

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I am surprised that a Runcorn to Northwich bus hasn't come about in recent times. I think it has potential really.

It would be useful to be able to reach Runcorn Station for London trains

Dobson's of Northwich were running two routes Northwich-Runcorn until at least 2001. The H44 via Dutton (timetable above) and the E48 via Frodsham and Kingsley- like the 48 service today. The routes were interworked at the Runcorn end, I think requiring two buses- usually Talbot Pullmans.
Anthony's Travel has the contract for a period in the mid 2000's, however it was Frodsham-Northwich only by this date.
There was also, very briefly around 2009/10, an 85 Northwich-Dutton-Frodsham service operated by Fairway Travel of St Helens around a school contract. Didn't last more than a few months.

Yes I saw the 85 , but as you say didn't last. Wasnt advertised much either. Unfortunately I cant really see us getting much in the way of bus service improvements around here unless politically attitudes change to get people out of cars.

A far cry, indeed, from the service level of 1976.

Attached, which I just happened to have to hand, having been asked to look up something else in the area this morning.

View attachment 87466

Strangely the E88 early morning service to Helsby BICC, there is nothing at the end of the day in the reverse direction.
 
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markymark2000

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The route is contracted to be operated by a large bus because it carries a significant number of Weaverham High pupils on certain journeys. Leaving Northwich it duplicates the far more frequent number 1 route between Northwich and Weaverham, so other than the odd bus pass holder everyone who boards at Northwich is travelling to beyond Weaverham.

GHA were known to bid to run contracts for significantly less than other operators and to run routes commercially that no other operator would consider running commercially. It meant when they went out-of-business councils had to make the decision whether to increase bus subsides (when they hadn't budgeted for it) or to withdraw or cutback services. Losing the Saturday services on contracted routes was an easy way of retaining a bus but without affecting the council's budget.
Are you on about the 48 or the Runcorn to Northwich route?


I understand that change relates to reinstating a bus service via Delamere Park, which previously was served by a variation of the 82 service.
Delamere Park was unserved for years. The only bus they had for a while was a morning 82B going to Northwich (no return service showing though)

It would be useful to be able to reach Runcorn Station for London trains



Yes I saw the 85 , but as you say didn't last. Wasnt advertised much either.
I while while it may be useful for that, running to Runcorn station is quite an extension compared to the natural 'centre' which would be Halton Lea. Not sure quite sure if the revenue would cover the costs of the extension.
If the 85 wasn't advertised, I do wonder if that is why it didn't do so well.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Not convinced that there is much of a market for a Northwich to Runcorn service.

Firstly, once you leave Barnton (itself now just a suburb of Northwich now in reality), there's nothing between there and Runcorn save for a few houses at Dutton and a few in Preston Brook (plus a few warehouses and factories).

Secondly, people in Northwich don't really look to Runcorn as a place to work/shop/play. Despite being further away, Warrington and Chester are more likely. Then you have the hospital being in Crewe, which is also a much more likely spot to catch the train to London and elsewhere.

It's a curious town is Northwich. It's part typical Northern industrial and part Cheshire set!
 

markymark2000

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Not convinced that there is much of a market for a Northwich to Runcorn service.

Firstly, once you leave Barnton (itself now just a suburb of Northwich now in reality), there's nothing between there and Runcorn save for a few houses at Dutton and a few in Preston Brook (plus a few warehouses and factories).

Secondly, people in Northwich don't really look to Runcorn as a place to work/shop/play. Despite being further away, Warrington and Chester are more likely. Then you have the hospital being in Crewe, which is also a much more likely spot to catch the train to London and elsewhere.

It's a curious town is Northwich. It's part typical Northern industrial and part Cheshire set!
I don't think the demand would be there for high frequency or anything like that but using 1 bus, I think a 70 minute frequency would be doable.
I think that Northwich could be a good connection point for passengers and it has some of the bigger shops which Runcorn doesn't have. Also home to John Dene college which has a college bus from the Runcorn area.
You then have Winnington Urban Village which has thousands of homes. These people all work somewhere. Barton I think does have some people travelling to Runcorn. This isn't fully seen though because it's car traffic.
Barton to Preston Brook is basically no demand, I agree.
Preston Brook has a lot of businesses employing a lot of people and a decent amount would live in the Northwich area. Join the busway then at Brookvale and you could get some demand there from shorter distance passengers hopping to Halton Lea.

On the face of it, it may not seem like a huge opportunity but it has a lot of existing short distance flows to protect the service and hopefully make it viable quicker. You are then linking a town to a fair size employment zone. You finally are linking 2 towns where the demand is not fully seen because there is no public transport. Halton Hospital is also closer to Barton than Leighton Hosp so that may work in their favour for some health demand. I know Victoria Infirmary doesn't do much and Leighton might be the main but it's always worth remembering the minor hospitals which offer a decent amount of services. You could probably finally add that Northwich to Liverpool demand could be added onto that so by changing buses once in Runcorn, people can be in Liverpool in 90 minutes or so which could be a bit more demand (Airport similarly is accessible by changing once at Halton Lea).
Connections, Medical/Health links, Commuter links, College links. That is a fair amount of demand there. I can see why you would say there doesn't seem like much demand and off face value, it doesn't seem like it but as you delve deeper, there is a good few areas for demand, it just needs to be done properly and not just put a service on for the sake of it and then scrap it because no one is using it. You need to put money and effort into the service for it to work.
 

Llandudno

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I don't think the demand would be there for high frequency or anything like that but using 1 bus, I think a 70 minute frequency would be doable.
I think that Northwich could be a good connection point for passengers and it has some of the bigger shops which Runcorn doesn't have. Also home to John Dene college which has a college bus from the Runcorn area.
You then have Winnington Urban Village which has thousands of homes. These people all work somewhere. Barton I think does have some people travelling to Runcorn. This isn't fully seen though because it's car traffic.
Barton to Preston Brook is basically no demand, I agree.
Preston Brook has a lot of businesses employing a lot of people and a decent amount would live in the Northwich area. Join the busway then at Brookvale and you could get some demand there from shorter distance passengers hopping to Halton Lea.

On the face of it, it may not seem like a huge opportunity but it has a lot of existing short distance flows to protect the service and hopefully make it viable quicker. You are then linking a town to a fair size employment zone. You finally are linking 2 towns where the demand is not fully seen because there is no public transport. Halton Hospital is also closer to Barton than Leighton Hosp so that may work in their favour for some health demand. I know Victoria Infirmary doesn't do much and Leighton might be the main but it's always worth remembering the minor hospitals which offer a decent amount of services. You could probably finally add that Northwich to Liverpool demand could be added onto that so by changing buses once in Runcorn, people can be in Liverpool in 90 minutes or so which could be a bit more demand (Airport similarly is accessible by changing once at Halton Lea).
Connections, Medical/Health links, Commuter links, College links. That is a fair amount of demand there. I can see why you would say there doesn't seem like much demand and off face value, it doesn't seem like it but as you delve deeper, there is a good few areas for demand, it just needs to be done properly and not just put a service on for the sake of it and then scrap it because no one is using it. You need to put money and effort into the service for it to work.
Wouldn’t people from Northwich wanting to go to Liverpool or Runcorn simply use Hartford Station?
Hourly service 7 days a week 0600-2300
 

peters

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Are you on about the 48 or the Runcorn to Northwich route?



Delamere Park was unserved for years. The only bus they had for a while was a morning 82B going to Northwich (no return service showing though)


I while while it may be useful for that, running to Runcorn station is quite an extension compared to the natural 'centre' which would be Halton Lea. Not sure quite sure if the revenue would cover the costs of the extension.
If the 85 wasn't advertised, I do wonder if that is why it didn't do so well.

I replied to the opening post in this 48 thread and then it appeared directly under your post asking about loadings, which didn't mention Runcorn and didn't include a quote. So I presumed you were talking about 48 loadings.

I do remember in around 2006 seeing Arriva deckers saying Chester via Delamere Park in Northwich.
 

markymark2000

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Wouldn’t people from Northwich wanting to go to Liverpool or Runcorn simply use Hartford Station?
Hourly service 7 days a week 0600-2300
I also fail to understand why you are comparing trains to buses as I think it is pretty well evidenced that even when there is a high frequency train and bus service, they can both work well together. I really don't understand that logic as it really is flawed. By the same logic, why does anyone travel from Northwich to Chester on the 82 as that runs along the rail line? Buses and trains have different sets of people using them and different convenience levels. Buses have local travel and pick you up/drop you off at more convenient locations to trains.

Even if people did use Hartford station, it isn't the best for parking or public transport access. Runcorn station is then almost 2 miles away from the actual town centre of Runcorn (which people use) and is even further away from Preston Brook. South Parkway is useless for the airport and you might as well drive rather than use the train and then the shuttle bus. People could travel to Liverpool by train but Lime Street isn't as convenient as L1 bus station. I also refer you back to my previous point on the fact just because a train exists, some people prefer buses because of the convenience and sometimes they are cheaper.


I replied to the opening post in this 48 thread and then it appeared directly under your post asking about loadings, which didn't mention Runcorn and didn't include a quote. So I presumed you were talking about 48 loadings.

I do remember in around 2006 seeing Arriva deckers saying Chester via Delamere Park in Northwich.
Fair enough. I was continuing the thread on from post #21 which referenced Northwich to Runcorn.

In 2006, Arriva decker's may have ran around Delamere Park. I don't know. I can only comment on what I know and that is that there hasn't been a proper service for a good few years.
 
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