Bus drivers, how would you handle a car blocking the road?

[PermitToTravel]

There's definitely no specific law against reversing a bus. It might be dangerous (and so Dangerous Driving) to do so without external assistance, depending on the circumstances; and it's a crime to reverse any vehicle for longer than necessary.

Diversions definitely have nothing to do with insurance.

 

[Deerfold]

Neither really. But if its a regular occurance, some people are going to suffer considerably. Logically, if a diversion route is adopted missing out stops, it will stay in place until the situation is deemed to be resolved permanently, so in that respect it is worse than the occasional bus missing out the entire journey.

Depends what you mean by regular. I said several times over the last few years. There was a period of 3 days when the road was closed due to flooding and I'm aware of 4 separate part-day closures - so on average less than twice a year over the last 4 years.

I don't understand the argument about missing some stops being worse than missing entire journeys (and I'm speaking as someone whose nearest stops were not served).

 

[Flying Snail]

I thought it was the law - although it may only apply to full length vehicles for obvious Health & Safety issues.

There is no such law. Usual rules apply around driving with due care. Certainly in many locations it can be difficult to reverse and without a good rear-view camera I am very reluctant to do it without assistance away from set reversing locations but it is not illegal.

As regards diversions, the driver would need to contact the depot for express permission. Otherwise, the company's insurance is invalid.

Utter nonsense, insurance doesn't work like that.

 

[_toommm_]

Hmm!
Both 3 and 5 are illegal, but I have sympathy with using 3 - as at least you considered the safety of pedestrians unlike certain "transportants".

5. You need a second person to guide you if you reverse a pcv on a public highway, and you need permission to divert from the route registered with VOSA.

2 & 4 are much better bets, at least before young kids have gone to bed......

5 is absolute rubbish! There are bus services which have a reversal as part of a route, often so that they can serve a little one-stop-shop village - The 65 from Sheffield to Buxton has at least one reversal in it.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Surely every bus driver has at least once gotten lost and ended up doing a 19-point-turn in a cul-de-sac?

 

[northwichcat]

Hmm!
Both 3 and 5 are illegal, but I have sympathy with using 3 - as at least you considered the safety of pedestrians unlike certain "transportants".

5. You need a second person to guide you if you reverse a pcv on a public highway, and you need permission to divert from the route registered with VOSA.

2 & 4 are much better bets, at least before young kids have gone to bed......

Technically 2 is illegal unless there's the risk of an accident, while if the car owner can't be found then not diverting would mean journeys don't operate, which also would be in breach of the registration. Catch 22 situation.

Driving on or parking on the pavement is allowed in exceptional circumstances if it doesn't endanger pedestrians but if you don't have a good reason or endanger the safety of other road users the police might want to talk to you about doing it.

So you're saying if a bus driver goes down a cul de sac by mistake while empty they have to stop and block the road until the depot send someone to assist with reversing?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Surely every bus driver has at least once gotten lost and ended up doing a 19-point-turn in a cul-de-sac?

When I was depot trainer, there were times I'd let a route learner take (or usually, not take) a turning, they wouldn't forget again! If they didn't realise they had done it straight away, I'd helpfully says "I have never been done here before, nice isn't it?" Not only does it teach them the route, but also how to get out of these situations.

Whilst reversing is never desirable, it is sometimes unavoidable, and it certainly isn't illegal. A route will not be registered with a reverse in it if other options are available, but will if there are no other options.

 

[Dentonian]

Technically 2 is illegal unless there's the risk of an accident, while if the car owner can't be found then not diverting would mean journeys don't operate, which also would be in breach of the registration. Catch 22 situation.

Driving on or parking on the pavement is allowed in exceptional circumstances if it doesn't endanger pedestrians but if you don't have a good reason or endanger the safety of other road users the police might want to talk to you about doing it.

So you're saying if a bus driver goes down a cul de sac by mistake while empty they have to stop and block the road until the depot send someone to assist with reversing?

OK. I stand corrected about it actually being illegal to reverse a full size bus without aid. Maybe it was presented to me as "Law", when it was actually just against company (probably GMT pre1986) rules due to the obvious danger.

As regards not being insured on a diversion. I was of course, meaning that if a bus route was varied from the service registration without either a road closure, or an official diversion being in place, or being instructed by the emergency services, then insurance would be invalidated in the case of an accident off-route.

More generally, I accept a lot is academic anyway, as the vast majority of laws in this country aren't enforced.

 

[Busaholic]

The A17 bus of First Kernow's from St Just/Madron to St Ives via Penzance Bus Station 'pauses' at the latter, with passengers on board, and, unless late, reverses from the stop into the station parking area. A half hourly occurrence throughout the day! Nobody other than the driver supervises the manoeuvre.

 

[Dentonian]

The A17 bus of First Kernow's from St Just/Madron to St Ives via Penzance Bus Station 'pauses' at the latter, with passengers on board, and, unless late, reverses from the stop into the station parking area. A half hourly occurrence throughout the day! Nobody other than the driver supervises the manoeuvre.

Even my interpretation of it being illegal only applied to the public highway. Presumably, Penzance bus station is council property, so the law wouldn't apply. That said, I still think DIRO bus stations are dangerous, as members of the public (rarely bona fide bus passengers, I stress) regularly wander across bus stations as a short cut to a waiting car or taxi or to their office or shops etc.

 

[Bromley boy]

Duplicate please delete

 

[Bromley boy]

That's the way to do it!

It doesn't say what happened to the bus driver. I hope he was charged and given a driving ban, at the very least. I wouldn't want an idiot like that driving any bus I was on.

Wow - now that is frightening.

Does anyone know what the outcome of this case was? Seems such an extreme and dangerous thing to do. I wonder if they driver was taken ill at the wheel?

 

[Mwanesh]

Years ago when we had Volvos with a broms brake.There is a bloke who used to park in the road and be abusive.After a few altercations with drivers .One guy pulled out and blocked him on his drive.He said he could not drive because he was out of hours.The guy never blocked the road after that

 

[Busaholic]

Wow - now that is frightening.

Does anyone know what the outcome of this case was? Seems such an extreme and dangerous thing to do. I wonder if they driver was taken ill at the wheel?

I saw this film on YouTube years ago, but without the commentary. I'm afraid it was one of a series of apparently appalling driving by London bus drivers, most of which were intentional: I honestly don't know what to make of this one, except that I don't buy the 'failed handbrake' theory postulated earlier on here!

 

[Busaholic]

Even my interpretation of it being illegal only applied to the public highway. Presumably, Penzance bus station is council property, so the law wouldn't apply. That said, I still think DIRO bus stations are dangerous, as members of the public (rarely bona fide bus passengers, I stress) regularly wander across bus stations as a short cut to a waiting car or taxi or to their office or shops etc.

Yes, take your point, but there are many other incidences where scheduled services reverse for short distances on public roads.

 

[londonbridge]

For those who know the area I was once on a 154 going towards Croydon, instead of turning right off Stafford Road and up Sandy Lane South he went straight across the junction. Having realised his mistake and pulled up he then managed to reverse into Sandy Lane North and pulled forward to get back on route.

 

[Robertj21a]

Even my interpretation of it being illegal only applied to the public highway. Presumably, Penzance bus station is council property, so the law wouldn't apply. That said, I still think DIRO bus stations are dangerous, as members of the public (rarely bona fide bus passengers, I stress) regularly wander across bus stations as a short cut to a waiting car or taxi or to their office or shops etc.

As others have said, there's nothing illegal at all about reversing a bus. There's numerous routes, with many passengers on board, where it's a daily event.
Reversing out bus stations are common all over the country and few have 'banksmen' to assist.

 

[Dentonian]

As others have said, there's nothing illegal at all about reversing a bus. There's numerous routes, with many passengers on board, where it's a daily event.
Reversing out bus stations are common all over the country and few have 'banksmen' to assist.

Fair enough! I'm not aware of any routes in GM requiring reversing, and I must admit I don't travel by bus elsewhere anything like as much as I did in the 1970s/80s, so the few routes I do use tend to be trunk routes between major towns.

As regards DIRO, it must be testament to the competence of bus drivers that there are so few accidents in such bus stations. The only one I visit anything like regularly is Manchester Airport, and wandering across the bus station is common there, especially by Airport staff. Fortunately, and not surprisingly, NatEx, Stagecoach and High Peak drivers invariably reverse very slowly and carefully, so even a "blind spot" collision is unlikely to result in serious injury. Certain other ops (with smaller buses), maybe not so slowly, but as these tend to occupy the bays at the far end of the Station, there is no reason for any pedestrians making a short cut to be wandering around there.

 

[PeterC]

The route to my village has to reverse at one point.

With regard to unauthorised diversions we have had plenty of cases locally where nobody bothers to tell the drivers when the water company are digging up a road. Half way round the route with half a dozen elderly (and technically "vulnerable") passengers what is the driver supposed to do?

 

[PermitToTravel]

As regards not being insured on a diversion. I was of course, meaning that if a bus route was varied from the service registration without either a road closure, or an official diversion being in place, or being instructed by the emergency services, then insurance would be invalidated in the case of an accident off-route.

Nope.

Fair enough! I'm not aware of any routes in GM requiring reversing, and I must admit I don't travel by bus elsewhere anything like as much as I did in the 1970s/80s, so the few routes I do use tend to be trunk routes between major towns.

375 reverses into a farm at the Mellor terminus

 

[SCH117X]

Transdev Harrogates Route 24 to Pateley Bridge reverses in both directions every hour each way on the public road in the village of Birstwith. The reversing point is now at a lopsided T junction; they use to back into a side street which could be quite amusing to watch when both buses arrived at the same time.

 

[swj99]

............As regards diversions, the driver would need to contact the depot for express permission. Otherwise, the company's insurance is invalid.

I take it the 2 mile diversion didn't miss any stops!

Unless you can provide a link to some legislation or case law to confirm this, I have to say I'm sure that's an urban myth. There are only very limited situations under which road risk insurance can be invalidated, and this isn't one of them.

 

[SCH117X]

During last years Tour de Yorkshire Knaresborough High Street was closed earlier than expected causing an unexpected diversion. Eventually the driver phone the depot but had gone some distance off route before doing so. The impression I got was more "what is going on" than "can I proceed off route"

 

[Busaholic]

Please note my avatar, which shows a Falmouth bound bus reversing in Goldsithney while a Penzance bound bus on the same route waits his turn to do the same!

 

[AndyW33]

As a generalisation, operators/depots that originated as municipals had a dislike of reversing. Of course since the original owner would also have been the highway authority, providing turning circles was relatively easy for them. I suppose the ultimate weirdness would have been the trolleybus turntable at Christchurch.
Former BET/Tilling/Scottish Bus Group operators had no problem with reversing en route and has been said there are many routes where this tradition continues.
Having worked for both former BET and Tilling operators, it was standard practice when hiring a fully qualified driver from a municipal or London Transport to put them through a refresher on reversing buses as while they must have done it properly to pass their test and get their licence, they had usually forgotten how to do it on the road, and never needed to do it in bus stations. Now there were municipalities with reverse-off bus stations, Preston being a good example - their drivers needed the same skillset as those of Ribble and Fishwick on the other side of the bus station.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Stagecoach East route 73 from Biggleswade to Bedford has a reversal on a public road at Sandy, using a T-junction outside Quince Court near Sandy Upper School. It was actually removed from the route in 2016, but was reinstated in 2017.

 

[carlberry]

As regards not being insured on a diversion. I was of course, meaning that if a bus route was varied from the service registration without either a road closure, or an official diversion being in place, or being instructed by the emergency services, then insurance would be invalidated in the case of an accident off-route.

As somebody else has said insurance dosent work like that. It covers the vehicle on the public highway. However most companies are likely to tell their drivers something along those lines to ensure the drivers phone in if they need to divert rather than just make it up themselves, mostly so they don't end up having to recover the vehicle from some dead end. Even the idiots that wedge HGVs into buildings because the sat nav told them to are still insured, even if they're no longer employed! (Loss adjusters will, of course, try to ensure any subsequent payouts are reduced if they can).

 

[carlberry]

As a generalisation, operators/depots that originated as municipals had a dislike of reversing. Of course since the original owner would also have been the highway authority, providing turning circles was relatively easy for them. I suppose the ultimate weirdness would have been the trolleybus turntable at Christchurch.
Former BET/Tilling/Scottish Bus Group operators had no problem with reversing en route and has been said there are many routes where this tradition continues.
Having worked for both former BET and Tilling operators, it was standard practice when hiring a fully qualified driver from a municipal or London Transport to put them through a refresher on reversing buses as while they must have done it properly to pass their test and get their license, they had usually forgotten how to do it on the road, and never needed to do it in bus stations. Now there were municipalities with reverse-off bus stations, Preston being a good example - their drivers needed the same skillset as those of Ribble and Fishwick on the other side of the bus station.

Bristol Omnibus had a route in the early 1980s which was conductor worked (despite carrying about 1 1/2 passengers a year) purely because there was a reverse and the union for the depot that worked it wouldn't accept it any other way. Other depots quite happily reversed en-route all over the place (especially after the last passenger had departed on a late night journey!).

 

[richw]

Unless you can provide a link to some legislation or case law to confirm this, I have to say I'm sure that's an urban myth. There are only very limited situations under which road risk insurance can be invalidated, and this isn't one of them.

He’s talking rubbish, route registration even allows trips that are off route in exceptional circumstances. Road closures for accidents or temporary roadworks for example.
I spent last summer assisting with day to day operations at a friends bus company with him teaching me the ropes, his insurance covers him exactly the same as any other motor vehicle, to go wherever he wants. His public liability also covers all public from start to end of the policy dates.

Buses can reverse, but a risk assessment should have been made, I.e. the driver checking it’s safe before hand. I drive vans with poor rear visibility, before any reverse manouevre even we are required to carry out a dynamic risk assessment... I.e is it safe, can I see the full reversal in my mirror. Reversing round bends or out onto another road are big no’s, but reversing into a road is ok. If you met me on a lane and your in a car, me in my van, the car is reversing unless it’s straight back for the van, due to the visibility, and safety aspects, I can’t see if there is a for example a bike or pedestrian, or even a narrow car behind me, a car has its rear windows and can see those obstructions. I assume the same requirements would be for buses. It’s covered in health and safety documentation I was made to read.

 

[londonbridge]

I've rememberd another instance involving a bus reversing, on an X26 once going towards Kingston, there was a diversion at New Malden Fountain roundabout as the A2043 Kingston Road/Cambridge Road was shut, the driver followed the diversion signs but missed one and ended up on the aforementioned road heading straight for the closure, he had to reverse back so he could turn off.