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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

Goldfish62

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People moan at Streetlites and don't get me wrong, I don't like them and they are cheap lightweight rubbish, but didn't Alexander / Transbus make a whole market of making cheap as chips DARTS that were a pile of crap but were cheap and cheerful and were attractive to operators, before being dumped relatively young in age compared to a heavyweight and ending up with Dawsons and Ensign bus with huge numbers of them trying to flog?

I hate to say that a Streetlite is a modern day DART but they seem to serve similar purposes in relation to being cheap to acquire and run but not very durable.
I always thought the Pointer Dart was a pretty solid vehicle, but that the original E200 was appalling from a passenger point of view, especially the London version with loads of body flexing around the centre door.
 
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Robertj21a

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People moan at Streetlites and don't get me wrong, I don't like them and they are cheap lightweight rubbish, but didn't Alexander / Transbus make a whole market of making cheap as chips DARTS that were a pile of crap but were cheap and cheerful and were attractive to operators, before being dumped relatively young in age compared to a heavyweight and ending up with Dawsons and Ensign bus with huge numbers of them trying to flog?

I hate to say that a Streetlite is a modern day DART but they seem to serve similar purposes in relation to being cheap to acquire and run but not very durable.

Oh yes, quite agree but those Darts still had a long life and many are still running. The latest, updated, version as the E200 is also very popular, and the obvious competitor to the Streetlite.
 

MotCO

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It would also be extremely bad for the industry, choice and would basically kick out a decent sized competitor and would strengthen ADL and weaken Volvo and already the balance in the UK is too much in ADLs favour.

If only Optare could fill the void. I still don't understand why the Metrodecker is not selling in large numbers - it appears to be a good bus in electric form from write-ups I have seen. The Solo appears to be better than the Streetlite, the Metrocity looks ok as a E200 competitor. Are the products poor, or are they being poorly marketed?
 

F Great Eastern

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If only Optare could fill the void. I still don't understand why the Metrodecker is not selling in large numbers - it appears to be a good bus in electric form from write-ups I have seen. The Solo appears to be better than the Streetlite, the Metrocity looks ok as a E200 competitor. Are the products poor, or are they being poorly marketed?

I'd be curious what the support network is like for Optare vehicles and how cheap parts are to come by.

Most of East Lancs business was based on building on Volvo and others chassis and when they were merged into Optare it seemed to be they stopped very quickly doing anything but integral products, with most of the customers of East Lancs since going to ADL.

One wonders what would be happening today if Optare hadn't have decided to simply stop bothering with building bodies on other peoples chassis.
 

goldisgood

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I'd be curious what the support network is like for Optare vehicles and how cheap parts are to come by.

Most of East Lancs business was based on building on Volvo and others chassis and when they were merged into Optare it seemed to be they stopped very quickly doing anything but integral products, with most of the customers of East Lancs since going to ADL.

One wonders what would be happening today if Optare hadn't have decided to simply stop bothering with building bodies on other peoples chassis.
I've heard that there have been some fairly big issues in getting parts for the Optares that have affected Go North East and Stagecoach CNL.
 

37114

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It would also be extremely bad for the industry, choice and would basically kick out a decent sized competitor and would strengthen ADL and weaken Volvo and already the balance in the UK is too much in ADLs favour.

Most companies will want to have a minimum of 3 credible bidders for any procurement process, today that exists in Wright, ADL and Optare. If Wright goes that leaves a good for a 3rd manufacturer which is could give opportunities to the likes of Volvo if they were to partner MCV or alternatively give one of the Chinese manufacturers a way in e.g. Yutong
 

F Great Eastern

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Most companies will want to have a minimum of 3 credible bidders for any procurement process, today that exists in Wright, ADL and Optare. If Wright goes that leaves a good for a 3rd manufacturer which is could give opportunities to the likes of Volvo if they were to partner MCV or alternatively give one of the Chinese manufacturers a way in e.g. Yutong

Optare, a credible bidder in a procurement process? Really?

Most people in the bus industry would argue with that and their sales figures over the past few years have been absolutely woeful and neither ADL, Wright or Volvo see them as a true competitor.
 

MotCO

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But why
Optare, a credible bidder in a procurement process? Really?

Most people in the bus industry would argue with that and their sales figures over the past few years have been absolutely woeful and neither ADL, Wright or Volvo see them as a true competitor.

Buy why not? Are the products poor, or is it poor after sales?
 

cainebj

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From a personal view, the Optare products are now quite an outdated design. The Solo is a facelifted 20+ year old design (approaching 12 years now since the first Solo SR was delivered), the Versa is now a 12 year old design, and the Metrocity is a cut down budget version of the same 12 year old design Versa. You now have these "old" designs facing stiff competition from the Streetlite and the very modern looking E200MMC. If you're a commercial operator looking to increase growth on a frontline commercial service you'll want something to shout about in a press launch. Does a Versa with it's original 12 year old design pack the same punch as the striking E200MMC? It certainly doesn't if you're replacing an earlier batch of Versas with a new batch.

Both the E200MMC and Streetlite offer stop-start technology too as part of the Smart Pack and Micro Hybrid packages, something Optare don't have. Green technology and being environmentally friendly is becoming more important nowadays. It helps with the company green credentials and carbon reduction from idling buses in town and city centres through buying vehicles fitted with the technology, while also helping the operator to reduce costs from cutting out idling.

You also have the growth of the Mellor Strata increasing competition with the short length slimline Solo. The Strata is cheaper to purchase and can return an impressive 20mpg. Stop-start technology is being added to the Sprinter range shortly too, further enhancing the green credentials of the Strata in the near future. The reduced costs of operating the Strata compared to the small Solo make it a strong contender.

Electric/hybrid buses have been one of the strongest ventures for Optare in my view in recent years, but this is now seeing increased competition with the introduction of the BYD based electric buses and with Yutong breaking into the UK market too. I personally think it's quite noteworthy that Go North East ordered Yutong E10 electric buses rather than opting for Optare, considering they already have experience of Optares, and maintaining some body parts commonality in the fleet.

This is before you take a look at the accounts for Optare. They've made a substantial loss every year for the last 5 financial years. The latest published accounts for the year to 31st March 2018 showing a loss of almost £15million. Turnover more than halved from the year to March 2015 (£57.8million) to March 2018 (£26.9million). It's a considerable downturn in sales. (Figures from key financials on Company Check for Optare PLC)
 

Eyersey468

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I wonder how Optare keeps going when they are losing money hand over fist and have done for several years, I'm surprised they haven't gone to the wall yet.
 

37114

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I wonder how Optare keeps going when they are losing money hand over fist and have done for several years, I'm surprised they haven't gone to the wall yet.

They have a large parent company with deep pockets.
 

Swimbar

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It's a part of Ashok-Leyland.

Correct and Ashok Leyland have a turnover of in excess of US$3 billion. Clearly £15 million loss by a British Subsidiary is a drop in the Indian Ocean!! Wright Brothers, on the other hand, being a local Irish Company, have a turnover probably less than £200 million now, hence a major fall in Profits becomes a big problem..
 

Alexbus12

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From a personal view, the Optare products are now quite an outdated design. The Solo is a facelifted 20+ year old design (approaching 12 years now since the first Solo SR was delivered), the Versa is now a 12 year old design, and the Metrocity is a cut down budget version of the same 12 year old design Versa.

To be fair, the versa design is quite smart, and in my opinion, just hasn't aged compared to its counterparts..
 

cnjb8

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If only Optare could fill the void. I still don't understand why the Metrodecker is not selling in large numbers - it appears to be a good bus in electric form from write-ups I have seen. The Solo appears to be better than the Streetlite, the Metrocity looks ok as a E200 competitor. Are the products poor, or are they being poorly marketed?

From a personal view, the Optare products are now quite an outdated design. The Solo is a facelifted 20+ year old design (approaching 12 years now since the first Solo SR was delivered), the Versa is now a 12 year old design, and the Metrocity is a cut down budget version of the same 12 year old design Versa. You now have these "old" designs facing stiff competition from the Streetlite and the very modern looking E200MMC. If you're a commercial operator looking to increase growth on a frontline commercial service you'll want something to shout about in a press launch. Does a Versa with it's original 12 year old design pack the same punch as the striking E200MMC? It certainly doesn't if you're replacing an earlier batch of Versas with a new batch.

Both the E200MMC and Streetlite offer stop-start technology too as part of the Smart Pack and Micro Hybrid packages, something Optare don't have. Green technology and being environmentally friendly is becoming more important nowadays. It helps with the company green credentials and carbon reduction from idling buses in town and city centres through buying vehicles fitted with the technology, while also helping the operator to reduce costs from cutting out idling.

You also have the growth of the Mellor Strata increasing competition with the short length slimline Solo. The Strata is cheaper to purchase and can return an impressive 20mpg. Stop-start technology is being added to the Sprinter range shortly too, further enhancing the green credentials of the Strata in the near future. The reduced costs of operating the Strata compared to the small Solo make it a strong contender.

Electric/hybrid buses have been one of the strongest ventures for Optare in my view in recent years, but this is now seeing increased competition with the introduction of the BYD based electric buses and with Yutong breaking into the UK market too. I personally think it's quite noteworthy that Go North East ordered Yutong E10 electric buses rather than opting for Optare, considering they already have experience of Optares, and maintaining some body parts commonality in the fleet.

This is before you take a look at the accounts for Optare. They've made a substantial loss every year for the last 5 financial years. The latest published accounts for the year to 31st March 2018 showing a loss of almost £15million. Turnover more than halved from the year to March 2015 (£57.8million) to March 2018 (£26.9million). It's a considerable downturn in sales. (Figures from key financials on Company Check for Optare PLC)
The Versa is stylish of course! TrentBarton, Transdev and maybe GNE and Arriva prove this. The H1 buses for TrentBarton came from 2013 and they're stylish. I'm pretty sure that Versa's are offered as MetroCitys and yet most operators still want the Versa.
 

Jordan Adam

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The Solo, Metrocity and Versa are all basically the exact same bus with a different front end. Main issue with the Versa from what drivers have told me is the A-pillar creates quite an annoying blind spot. The Versa has been in production longer, hence more have been built, however currently the Metrocity is more popular.
 

Alexbus12

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The Versa is stylish of course! TrentBarton, Transdev and maybe GNE and Arriva prove this. The H1 buses for TrentBarton came from 2013 and they're stylish. I'm pretty sure that Versa's are offered as MetroCitys and yet most operators still want the Versa.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the metrocity is cheaper than the Versa too!
 

MotCO

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From a personal view, the Optare products are now quite an outdated design. The Solo is a facelifted 20+ year old design (approaching 12 years now since the first Solo SR was delivered), the Versa is now a 12 year old design, and the Metrocity is a cut down budget version of the same 12 year old design Versa.

Although the design is unchanged, have there not been any improvements 'under the bonnet'? Cars constantly evolve during a model's production run - is the same not true for buses?
 
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LOL The Irony

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If ADL took over Wrights, perhaps renamed ADL Ireland, giving more companies an option of a gemini or eclipse body on an ADL-cummins powered or scania chassis for instance, of course heavy weight single deckers are far and few between now.
I never understood why Wright stopped offering bodies on Scania's. They just allowed ADL to walk in and snap up their market share.
 

Cesarcollie

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People moan at Streetlites and don't get me wrong, I don't like them and they are cheap lightweight rubbish, but didn't Alexander / Transbus make a whole market of making cheap as chips DARTS that were a pile of crap but were cheap and cheerful and were attractive to operators, before being dumped relatively young in age compared to a heavyweight and ending up with Dawsons and Ensign bus with huge numbers of them trying to flog?

I hate to say that a Streetlite is a modern day DART but they seem to serve similar purposes in relation to being cheap to acquire and run but not very durable.

It’s hardly true to says Darts were ‘a pile of crap’ and ‘dumped relatively young in age’. There are plenty of 2003-2005 models still in service (and some older). And they were sold in their thousands and thousands - clearly the operators buying them didn’t/don’t think they are ‘crap’....!
 

Goldfish62

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It’s hardly true to says Darts were ‘a pile of crap’ and ‘dumped relatively young in age’. There are plenty of 2003-2005 models still in service (and some older). And they were sold in their thousands and thousands - clearly the operators buying them didn’t/don’t think they are ‘crap’....!
Revolutionised the midibus concept, cheap to operate, easy to maintain and undoubtedly saved many bus services due to its relative economy. Those still in service are doing just fine. Definitely not crap.
 

Mikey C

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I'd be curious what the support network is like for Optare vehicles and how cheap parts are to come by.

Most of East Lancs business was based on building on Volvo and others chassis and when they were merged into Optare it seemed to be they stopped very quickly doing anything but integral products, with most of the customers of East Lancs since going to ADL.

One wonders what would be happening today if Optare hadn't have decided to simply stop bothering with building bodies on other peoples chassis.

Always seemed a crazy decision. East Lancs had some nice open top business on Volvos and bodied a decent number of Volvo and Scania double decker chassis in London, and Optare deliberately gave up this steady business.
 

Mikey C

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I always thought the Pointer Dart was a pretty solid vehicle, but that the original E200 was appalling from a passenger point of view, especially the London version with loads of body flexing around the centre door.

The London E200s always seemed fine to me. There's enough of them so ADL must have done something right!
 

Eyersey468

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The London E200s always seemed fine to me. There's enough of them so ADL must have done something right!
I quite like the E200s, the main problem with them in my experience is how rattly they got after only a short time on the road. That said the MMC version is much better in that regard.
 

Goldfish62

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The London E200s always seemed fine to me. There's enough of them so ADL must have done something right!
I never suggested that they were bad buses from an operator viewpoint (although many operators grumble about the build quality). In fact they're ideal for 5-7 year contracts with no guarantee of further use because they're built down to a price. That is reflected in the passenger experience.
 

Jordan Adam

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I never suggested that they were bad buses from an operator viewpoint (although many operators grumble about the build quality). In fact they're ideal for 5-7 year contracts with no guarantee of further use because they're built down to a price. That is reflected in the passenger experience.

I find older E200s to be hit or miss. I caught Stagecoach 36050 for a 90 minute rural run in place of a Interdeck about a month back and despite the interior being bodged to hell and back by Stagecoach over it's life it was a decent motor.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I find older E200s to be hit or miss. I caught Stagecoach 36050 for a 90 minute rural run in place of a Interdeck about a month back and despite the interior being bodged to hell and back by Stagecoach over it's life it was a decent motor.

I remember a trip in early 2014 on the old Northampton to Bicester service which serves Silverstone (!) with a 63 plate e200 and it was very poor for body flexing and ride quality. This is what I don't get about people complaining about Streetlites when, TBH, the old e200 was as bad!

What IS different is that Wright did have an enviable reputation for build quality (the Cadet on the SB120 was a good machine among many others) but the Eclipse signalled a bit of a shift to a lighter, less robust feel and then the Streetlite was a much greater leap. Meanwhile, ADL were producing not great e200s/e300s (and even some e400s are lousy) but have really moved forward with the e200mmc. ADL seem to have got the quality/lightweight conundrum tackled (if not solved) better than Wright have.
 

Robertj21a

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I remember a trip in early 2014 on the old Northampton to Bicester service which serves Silverstone (!) with a 63 plate e200 and it was very poor for body flexing and ride quality. This is what I don't get about people complaining about Streetlites when, TBH, the old e200 was as bad!

What IS different is that Wright did have an enviable reputation for build quality (the Cadet on the SB120 was a good machine among many others) but the Eclipse signalled a bit of a shift to a lighter, less robust feel and then the Streetlite was a much greater leap. Meanwhile, ADL were producing not great e200s/e300s (and even some e400s are lousy) but have really moved forward with the e200mmc. ADL seem to have got the quality/lightweight conundrum tackled (if not solved) better than Wright have.

I recall that ADL finally (after many complaints about poor quality/rattles on E200s in particular) brought together many of the operators in an attempt to properly identify their catalogue of complaints. Once they had that data, and had built it in to their new 'MMC' range of models then everything seemed to change - their quality clearly improved, just as Wrights was heading in the opposite direction.
 

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