Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

While it is British it was founded and is majority owned by a Russian oligarch, Denis Sverdlov, who was Minister for Communications and Mass Media in Putin’s government for a time. Given the current mood and targeting of those in Putin’s inner circle, will it affect Arrival’s funding and prospects going forward?

It's listed on the NASDAQ last March, and Forbes reported at the start of trading that Sverdlov would own 76% and that his stock was valued at $10.6BN.

I know not every Russian is a Putin stooge, far from it, but he was actually in the government in charge of controlling the media...

On a separate note, I can't understand how a company can have orders for 64000 vehicles and not actually have a viable demonstrator never mind a production line.

On a separate note, on a city break at the weekend I had a journey in a VDL Citea electric and what an impressive thing it was, no serious rattles or squeaks, and I wonder why they haven't brought it to the UK. I know VDLs principle (only) major customer in the UK was Arriva because they were the importer but I can't help but feeling the UK is missing out on some decent EVs.

Thank you for that. I'd picked up on the Korean angle but didn't appreciate that it was a former Putin ally who was the driving force behind it.

The production line is a bit of an odd one in that they plan to have small production cells rather than conventional factory.

 

[GusB]

It's listed on the NASDAQ last March, and Forbes reported at the start of trading that Sverdlov would own 76% and that his stock was valued at $10.6BN.

I know not every Russian is a Putin stooge, far from it, but he was actually in the government in charge of controlling the media...

On a separate note, I can't understand how a company can have orders for 64000 vehicles and not actually have a viable demonstrator never mind a production line.

On a separate note, on a city break at the weekend I had a journey in a VDL Citea electric and what an impressive thing it was, no serious rattles or squeaks, and I wonder why they haven't brought it to the UK. I know VDLs principle (only) major customer in the UK was Arriva because they were the importer but I can't help but feeling the UK is missing out on some decent EVs.

Where are you getting the figure of 64000 from?

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Arrival Lays Out ’22 Sales Targets, More Than Doubles Backlog

The company’s leaders are forecasting that 2022 capex will grow by about a quarter to roughly $400 million.

www.industryweek.com

Non-binding orders and LoIs, but still. Claimed backlog in total of 134,000.

 

[Hophead]

Arrival Lays Out ’22 Sales Targets, More Than Doubles Backlog

The company’s leaders are forecasting that 2022 capex will grow by about a quarter to roughly $400 million.

www.industryweek.com

Non-binding orders and LoIs, but still. Claimed backlog in total of 134,000.

To quote from the link:

Of the 134,000 vehicles that are now in their backlog, 92% are for vans and 64% are from customers in the Americas.

So it's mostly vans that they have orders for.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

I didn't say it was for buses, I just said as a company they have 64000 orders, despite no proper viable demonstration vehicles and no production line.

 

[cnjb8]

It's listed on the NASDAQ last March, and Forbes reported at the start of trading that Sverdlov would own 76% and that his stock was valued at $10.6BN.

I know not every Russian is a Putin stooge, far from it, but he was actually in the government in charge of controlling the media...

On a separate note, I can't understand how a company can have orders for 64000 vehicles and not actually have a viable demonstrator never mind a production line.

On a separate note, on a city break at the weekend I had a journey in a VDL Citea electric and what an impressive thing it was, no serious rattles or squeaks, and I wonder why they haven't brought it to the UK. I know VDLs principle (only) major customer in the UK was Arriva because they were the importer but I can't help but feeling the UK is missing out on some decent EVs.

Do VDL make a right-hand drive Citea?

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Do VDL make a right-hand drive Citea?

No, sadly. Other than their Futura coach range they stopped selling bus chassis when Euro 6 started.

It was a stylish and solid thing, we're definitely missing out on that.

 

[GusB]

There has been some early feedback on a couple of the new Mellor Sigma models

Light heavyweight contender - Bus & Coach Buyer

The introduction of the Sigma range has transformed Mellor into a full , single-deck electric bus supplier and , for the first time, potential customers got to experience the new buses first-hand. Offering tailorable options at 7m, 8m, 9m, 10m, 11m and 12-metre lengths, with one or two doors and...

www.busandcoachbuyer.com

First drives
One of the attractions of the day was a first chance to ride on the Sigma around the Millbrook facility with Millbrook’s own drivers at the wheel.
BCB’s first trip was on the Sigma 7, the baby of the range at only 6.99m long. This had a capacity of 15 seated and 16 standing or 13 seated, 13 standing and one wheelchair. With around a half load on the tortuously twisty track, it handled precisely and stably, though the suspension was harsher than the Sigma 10 over the joints in the sectional concrete road, with the smaller 17.5-inch wheels no doubt a factor. Despite transmission of these jolts through the vehicle it seemed very structurally taut with no rattles or body shimmer evident. We weren’t told the steering circle but judging by the way it tackled the turns, it appears very manoeuvrable.
The Sigma 7 and, we’re told, Sigma 8 and 9 have rear axles with an integrated motor. Sigma’s 10 and 11 have a traditional rear axle with driving motor and short propshaft to a differential, while the Sigma 12 will benefit from hub motors. The different driveline layouts are a feature of Mellor’s philosophy of producing size-appropriate products.
Our second ride was on the Sigma 10 which has a ‘big bus’ feel about it, although it is on 19.5-inch wheels rather than the 22.5-inch wheels of the Sigma 11 and 12. It was very smooth and relatively untroubled by the joins in the concrete road sections to give a comfortable ride. Once again, the body was very taut and rattle-free, while the powertrain was particularly quiet.
There was a slight rattle from the decency screen to the rear of the centre door, though this should be easily remedied. At the rear, it was easy to chat with other passengers, one of whom noted that there was more headroom at the rear than on 12-metre Yutongs running locally. Whether the Sigma 12 shares this advantage we do not yet know.
In a quick chat with one of Millbrook’s drivers afterwards he described it as ‘smooth and with rapid acceleration,’ adding, ‘it is certainly on a par with the others.’

 

[Blindtraveler]

All sounds very positive. I can see the 12th job becoming a popular choice for single deck high capacity or double deck replacement in TFL operating areas in particular but other cities as well.

 

[PG]

There has been some early feedback on a couple of the new Mellor Sigma models

Is it just me or does anyone else think the Sigma 7 looks like an airside transfer bus that shrunk in the wash?

I can see the 12th job becoming

I assume that's meant to read Sigma 12?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Is it just me or does anyone else think the Sigma 7 looks like an airside transfer bus that shrunk in the wash?

It does rather, but it's a rip-off of the Hino Poncho.

Hino Poncho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Goldfish62]

It does rather, but it's a rip-off of the Hino Poncho.

Hino Poncho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It actually looks identical to the Higer Steed. Is there something that Mellor aren't telling us, ie that their products are just rebadged from other manufacturers?

New Lemon

My first photo of 2021 shows a strange new bus for the Big Lemon at the depot on 4th January 2021. BIG 939 is a Higer electric, a model I have not come across on these shores before and is not expected to enter service for some time.

www.flickr.com

 

[jammy36]

It actually looks identical to the Higer Steed. Is there something that Mellor aren't telling us, ie that their products are just rebadged from other manufacturers?

There are certainly styling similarities with the Higer Steed, but the two designs are clearly not identical when you start looking at them closely. There are other very similar vehicles, so I also wonder if Mellor haven't entirely developed this in-house. Both the Mellor Sigma 7 and Sigma 12 have striking similarities with products by Wisdom Motors (http://www.wisdommotor.com/Product/17).



The above image for example shows the Wisdom 12m bus on the left and the Mellor Sigma 12 on the right (or is it the other way round?!). Even the same blue decals on the side.

But... this page shows what is meant to be a bus from EV Motors/Toshiba of Japan, but is clearly the same as the Wisdom Motors 7m EV Minibus - and note again the similarity of the side decals.... https://worldinsight.com/news/tech-...ters-chinese-and-korean-dominance-with-video/

Mellor seemed to be promoting these as an in-house product, but I'm not sure that is the case. Certainly if I'd seen them without knowing their origin I'd have said the Sigma range came from a Far East, rather than solely UK/European design house.

 

[PG]

Both the Mellor Sigma 7 and Sigma 12 have striking similarities with products by Wisdom Motors

Slight bodywork differences (I've only compared the Sigma 7) but certainly it'd be interesting to see under the panels/floor traps etc. If anyone has access to the European type approval for the Mellor it'd be interesting to see if it's the same as the Wisdom!

 

[ClydeCoaster]

The Enviro500EVs that ADL are making for Hong Kong sound very much like the herald of an all-new purely ADL EV platform, with an all new look. Wonder if this is going to ultimately spell the end of the BYD partnership? ADL are quick to distance the Hong Kong vehicles from the electric Enviro500s in the US, saying the latter is a stand alone development.

If you're going to put all that investment into your own driveline, utilise commonality from your FCEV, and introduce a bold new look, surely you're not going to restrict it to one product in one market...

Alexander Dennis will continue the rollout of what it terms “a global zero-emission vehicle platform” through an initial batch of 10 battery-electric Enviro500EV tri-axle double-deckers for Hong Kong operator KMB.

The order represents ADL’s first zero-emission double-deck business in the Asia Pacific market. It will see vehicle delivery during 2023. The OEM will fully integrate the driveline in-house and, it says, the buses will “introduce a striking new design language reflecting their zero-emission credentials.”

Each Enviro500EV for KMB will carry up to 130 passengers. They will have what ADL describes as “new and innovative features” for efficiency, safety and comfort.

While fuller specification details are awaited, an ADL spokesperson says that the buses will not utilise the same driveline as fitted to those Enviro500EVs already built for the North American market. The latter product, which uses Proterra batteries with around 650kW/h of energy storage, is “a standalone development.”

However, the KMB Enviro500EVs will share key suppliers and components with ADL’s Enviro400FCEV hydrogen fuel cell-electric double-decker for the UK market, as part of the manufacturer’s advancement of a global zero-emission platform. In battery-electric format, the platform will “in general” facilitate both plug-in and opportunity charging solutions, the spokesperson continues.

Adds ADL President and Managing Director Paul Davies: “We are delighted that KMB is continuing its commitment to innovation by choosing ADL for the development of an electric double-decker that will meet Hong Kong’s demanding operational requirements.

“With the next generation of electric bus technology, fully integrated by our own engineers, we are now in a position to deliver a zero-emission solution for Hong Kong’s world class transport system."

ADL 'global ZE platform' at heart of KMB Enviro500EV order - routeone

ADL's global zero-emission bus platform will be at the heart of 10 Enviro500EV double-deckers to be delivered to KMB in Hong Kong.

www.route-one.net

 

[Goldfish62]

The Enviro500EVs that ADL are making for Hong Kong sound very much like the herald of an all-new purely ADL EV platform, with an all new look. Wonder if this is going to ultimately spell the end of the BYD partnership? ADL are quick to distance the Hong Kong vehicles from the electric Enviro500s in the US, saying the latter is a stand alone development.

If you're going to put all that investment into your own driveline, utilise commonality from your FCEV, and introduce a bold new look, surely you're not going to restrict it to one product in one market...

ADL 'global ZE platform' at heart of KMB Enviro500EV order - routeone

ADL's global zero-emission bus platform will be at the heart of 10 Enviro500EV double-deckers to be delivered to KMB in Hong Kong.

www.route-one.net

Rumours have been circulating for a good while that the ADL-BYD relationship is not in a good place, so who knows?

 

[Astradyne]

The Enviro500EVs that ADL are making for Hong Kong sound very much like the herald of an all-new purely ADL EV platform, with an all new look. Wonder if this is going to ultimately spell the end of the BYD partnership? ADL are quick to distance the Hong Kong vehicles from the electric Enviro500s in the US, saying the latter is a stand alone development.

If you're going to put all that investment into your own driveline, utilise commonality from your FCEV, and introduce a bold new look, surely you're not going to restrict it to one product in one market...

ADL 'global ZE platform' at heart of KMB Enviro500EV order - routeone

ADL's global zero-emission bus platform will be at the heart of 10 Enviro500EV double-deckers to be delivered to KMB in Hong Kong.

www.route-one.net

NFI already have electric and hydrogen models in US, so imagine they are just borrowing the parent companies research

 

[Snow1964]

Switch Mobility (formerly Optare) is to open a technical centre in Warwick in June with over 130 jobs

Switch Mobility has announced an investment of over £300m in the UK and India as part of its work to become “a market leader” in zero-carbon segments, including battery-electric buses.

That money is expected to create over 4,000 skilled jobs across both countries and it will see a technical centre in Warwick open in June. The news was confirmed on 21 April at the time of Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s visit to India. It follows the recent announcement by Switch of a 12m battery-electric busthat has been designed for mainland European and APAC markets.

The Warwick technical centre will capture “over 130” of the new skilled jobs and it will serve as the focal point of Switch’s global research and development team. It will be led by Chief Technology Officer Roger Blakey and focus on the development of Switch’s next-generation vehicles. The Warwick facility will work closely with Switch’s existing R&D offices in Chennai, Leeds and Valladolid.

Switch Mobility to invest £300m in UK and India - routeone

Switch Mobility will invest over £300m in the UK and India as part of work to become 'a market leader' in zero-carbon transport segments.

www.route-one.net

 

[LP 3395]

Both the Mellor Sigma 7 and Sigma 12 have striking similarities with products by Wisdom Motors (http://www.wisdommotor.com/Product/17).

This page shows what is meant to be a bus from EV Motors/Toshiba of Japan, but is clearly the same as the Wisdom Motors 7m EV Minibus - and note again the similarity of the side decals.... https://worldinsight.com/news/tech-...ters-chinese-and-korean-dominance-with-video/

Mellor seemed to be promoting these as an in-house product, but I'm not sure that is the case. Certainly if I'd seen them without knowing their origin I'd have said the Sigma range came from a Far East, rather than solely UK/European design house.

Just look at the steering wheel, it is obvious that these are designed or even made in China.

I wonder why the manufacturers are trying to hide the fact and disguise them as local in-house design though, and hopefully companies do know the fact when they make their purchase decisions..

 

[fgwrich]

Switch Mobility (formerly Optare) is to open a technical centre in Warwick in June with over 130 jobs

Switch Mobility to invest £300m in UK and India - routeone

Switch Mobility will invest over £300m in the UK and India as part of work to become 'a market leader' in zero-carbon transport segments.

www.route-one.net

It's all very well opening a research and technical centre, but perhaps Switch (nee Optare) should research their inability to actually finish and order in the first place? On that note, are Switch actually fulfilling any orders at the moment?

 

[MotCO]

It's all very well opening a research and technical centre, but perhaps Switch (nee Optare) should research their inability to actually finish and order in the first place? On that note, are Switch actually fulfilling any orders at the moment?

Didn't they supply a Metrocity EV recently to Metroline for its Potters Bar service? So that's at least one bus. On the other hand, LOTS (www.LOTS.org.uk) recently reported that Central connect got fed up with waiting for the last of the Reading Green Line Metrodeckers so have cancelled the order. So that bus is ?3 years late?

 

[fgwrich]

Didn't they supply a Metrocity EV recently to Metroline for its Potters Bar service? So that's at least one bus. On the other hand, LOTS (www.LOTS.org.uk) recently reported that Central connect got fed up with waiting for the last of the Reading Green Line Metrodeckers so have cancelled the order. So that bus is ?3 years late?

Why does that not surprise me. I hadn't realised it had been delivered in unbranded GreenLine livery. So 3 years late and 4 years since the order went in, this cursed batch finally seems to have been killed off?

If you want a laugh, just read the press page on Optare's website about them!

"due for delivery in June 2019"

First ever Optare Metrodecker order confirmed for Reading Buses - Optare

Optare have confirmed their first ever order for their Metrodecker Euro 6 double decker bus. The order from Reading Buses for five vehicles to operate on the Green Line 702 route between London and Windsor is due for delivery in June 2019 ahead of the London Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ)...

www.optare.com

YJ21FDD (Trustybus/Central Connect) Hertford 27.10.21

Originally destined for Reading Buses 702 route, Metrodecker YJ21FDD has now joined Central Connect after spending a short time with Centaur and is seen here arriving in Hertford on a rail replacement job on behalf of Greater Anglia.

www.flickr.com

 

[MotCO]

Why does that not surprise me. I hadn't realised it had been delivered in unbranded GreenLine livery. So 3 years late and 4 years since the order went in, this cursed batch finally seems to have been killed off?

I think 4 of the 5 have been sold. One each to Centaur of Sidcup, and Cental Connect, and 2 to Johnsons (in Arden?)

 

[GusB]

It would seem that Equipmake are now offering a conversion solution as well as the Jewel E.

Equipmake showcases double decker bus repower technology at ALBUM

Electrification specialist Equipmake is showcasing its full-electric bus technology at the ALBUM Conference in Blackpool, in the shape of a repowered double-decker.

www.transportengineer.org.uk

Equipmake showcases double decker bus repower technology at ALBUM27 April 2022​

Unveiled for the first time, the fully-electric Volvo B5LH debuts the company’s repower solution, which has been developed at Equipmake’s base in Norfolk and upgrades existing hybrid and diesel buses with state-of-the-art battery drivetrains.

Equipmake’s repower technology programme involves an inspection of each bus to ensure its adaptability to its unique, scalable modular electric chassis. Once its suitability is verified, the process itself is quick, with up to five repowers a week being completed, ensuring a working bus is kept off the road for as short a time as possible.

Each repower is tailored to specific operator requirements, with service routes simulated to ensure the correct battery power level is selected for optimum performance and efficiency, and guaranteed driving ranges of 150 to 250 miles achievable. This is more than sufficient for a complete duty cycle, allowing buses to be recharged overnight.

Each conversion comes in at less than half the price of a new electric bus. And with most buses expected to remain in service for 14 years or beyond, operators can still make significant efficiencies by repowering a bus halfway through its working life.

This is good news for operators who might otherwise have found themselves with vehicles that are still within their useful lifespan, but who may find it difficult to use them because of forthcoming low emissions zones. It mentions that existing diesels and hybrids can be re-powered, but I dare say that there would be nothing to stop them offering an upgrade for some of the earlier electric vehicles at some point in the future.

 

[MotCO]

It would seem that Equipmake are now offering a conversion solution as well as the Jewel E.

Equipmake showcases double decker bus repower technology at ALBUM

Electrification specialist Equipmake is showcasing its full-electric bus technology at the ALBUM Conference in Blackpool, in the shape of a repowered double-decker.

www.transportengineer.org.uk

This is good news for operators who might otherwise have found themselves with vehicles that are still within their useful lifespan, but who may find it difficult to use them because of forthcoming low emissions zones. It mentions that existing diesels and hybrids can be re-powered, but I dare say that there would be nothing to stop them offering an upgrade for some of the earlier electric vehicles at some point in the future.

Others have also tried this - Magtec converted an East Lancs Trident several years ago, originally with Metrobus, but later transferred to (I think) York Pullman. What does Equipmake ofer that Magtec couldn't?

Having said that, I have wondered whether the life of Borismasters could be extended by converting to battery-electric. Maybe Equipmake is the answer.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Others have also tried this - Magtec converted an East Lancs Trident several years ago, originally with Metrobus, but later transferred to (I think) York Pullman. What does Equipmake ofer that Magtec couldn't?

Having said that, I have wondered whether the life of Borismasters could be extended by converting to battery-electric. Maybe Equipmake is the answer.

In fairness the technology has improved a fair bit since those Tridents were done. But it will be interesting to see the viability and longevity of these conversions.

I'm not really sure if converting "Borismasters" would work? Is there sufficient space for the battery capacity that would be required?

 

[Kernow Dave]

In fairness the technology has improved a fair bit since those Tridents were done. But it will be interesting to see the viability and longevity of these conversions.

I'm not really sure if converting "Borismasters" would work? Is there sufficient space for the battery capacity that would be required?

I would think that the weight of the batteries needed would be the problem, that said it would be an answer for the “Borismasters”

 

[Jordan Adam]

In reply to a bus from the First Greater Glasgow thread:

Yeah, that 422kWh battery is impressive given that other models coming into the market have larger battery packs for the same theoretical 300miles.

I wonder how the Yutongs compare in price to there British equivalents like ADLs EV’s or Wrights Electroliner.

Electrical range of these vehicles when operated by First Glasgow should do play given that many routes are fairly flat with few hills.

I'll reply here just to stay on topic.

I do wish more was being put towards Hydrogen, the technology is pretty much there but it's the lack of infrastructure and overall costs that are prohibiting it really taking off. However i think in 5-10 years once the infrastructure becomes more widespread and the costs have come down it'll be a far better option for operators rather than BEVs. There is of course also the possibility of converting Battery-Electric Vehicles (BEV) or series Hybrids (like the E400H) to Hydrogen (FCEV) at the mid-life stage once the original batteries expire. I think the thing people often forget is that a Battery-Electric, Series-Hybrid and a Hydrogen-Electric bus are much the same when it comes to the actual running gear itself as they're all at their core electric buses, the only difference is that one has batteries, one has a diesel generator and the other has a Fuel Cell, it's not as complex as converting a diesel bus to electric for example.

 

[RELL6L]

There’s a paragraph in the Times today - so it must be true! - saying Paris has taken 149 electric buses out of service after the second fire in a month. They are Bluebus 5SEs made by Bollore. I have never heard of them.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Others have also tried this - Magtec converted an East Lancs Trident several years ago, originally with Metrobus, but later transferred to (I think) York Pullman. What does Equipmake ofer that Magtec couldn't?

Having said that, I have wondered whether the life of Borismasters could be extended by converting to battery-electric. Maybe Equipmake is the answer.

It was Transdev York for City Sightseeing. There was at least one, if not two Plaxton Presidents converted as well.