Bus Route from Piccadilly to the Elephant & Castle

[Union St]

Good afternoon everyone.
My first time here and I wonder if I may ask an innocent question? I am a novelist with little understanding of buses, so I'm hoping someone can assist.
Q: In 1969, what bus route would someone take from Piccadilly Circus to the Elephant & Castle? My research suggests it is now the number 12. Would it have been the same number and route in 1969? And do you have any idea what it might have cost?

Many thanks,
Sean

 

[JonathanH]

The 12 is a long established route, that was once considerably longer than it is today. It would have linked Piccadilly Circus and Elephant & Castle in 1969, as set out here.

London Bus Route 12

In 1969, the 12 ran from South Croydon to Willesden Junction.

The 53 seems to have done so as well.

London Bus Route 53

 

[MotCO]

The 12 is a long established route, that was once considerably longer than it is today. It would have linked Piccadilly Circus and Elephant & Castle in 1969, as set out here.

London Bus Route 12

In 1969, the 12 ran from South Croydon to Willesden Junction.

The route, according to the link above, would have been operated mostly* by the RT class of double decker. This was the standard double decker introduced just before World War 2, but entering in large numbers in the fifties. This bus is not to be confused with the Routemaster (mostly class RM and RML) which entered service in large numbers in the early sixties. Enthusiasts are justifiably upset when people refer to the RT as the Routemaster!

On Mondays to Fridays, no fewer than 83 buses were allocated to the route in the peak hours.

* On Saturdays, Shepherds Bush garage put out 7 RMs on the route, alongside 40 RTs from other garages.

With regards to bus fares, I cannot recall fares pre-decimilisation, but the links given in this FOI might give the OP a few ideas as to how to research this.

 

[CyrusWuff]

With regards to bus fares, I cannot recall fares pre-decimilisation, but the links given in this FOI might give the OP a few ideas as to how to research this.

The londonbuses.co.uk linked to in post #2 has a 1966 fare table linked at the bottom of the page. By my reckoning, that gives Piccadilly Circus to the Elephant as having cost 8d, whereas Oxford Circus to the Elephant was a full 1 shilling.

 

[Roger1973]

The London Buses Historic site seems to have a lot of 1966 fare charts - I've tried a couple of other routes at random and not found a 1969 one.

There is a reference in Ken Glazier's book 'London Buses in the 1960s' to fares in 1969 being 6 pence, 1 shilling, or 1/6 - this suggests that the 8 penny fare in 1966 might have increased to a shilling by 1969, so a fare of a shilling would not be wildly inaccurate.

At that time, travelcards / bus passes (broadly speaking) did not exist, and London buses then as now did not do return tickets.

At the risk of stating the absolute obvious, the passenger in 1969 would have got on the bus (probably at a bus stop, but possibly at traffic lights or in slow traffic), gone and sat down, then the conductor would have come round for their fare. I have seen a couple of examples on the telly where passengers have either paid the conductor on the platform on boarding (this did occasionally happen on lightly loaded journeys, but unlikely on a journey from Piccadilly Circus) or in one case, leaning across the bonnet to pay the driver...

The conductor would have issued the ticket with a 'Gibson' ticket machine - short video of conductors in training here.

Smoking was allowed on the top deck of double deck buses then.

If it's of any possible use, in 1969, the conductor could have been a woman (women conductors were taken on during the two wars, but after 1945 were allowed to keep their jobs, and women conductors continued to be recruited) and / or from an ethnic minority - London Transport was recruiting in the West Indies from the late 1950s, and many migrants to London from Ireland and the Commonwealth worked on the buses. (From the location of garages that worked routes 12 and 53, a West Indian is statistically more likely than an Asian.) The driver also may have been from an ethnic minority, but would not - until 1974 - have been a woman.

 

[30907]

The route, according to the link above, would have been operated mostly* by the RT class of double decker. This was the standard double decker introduced just before World War 2, but entering in large numbers in the fifties. This bus is not to be confused with the Routemaster (mostly class RM and RML) which entered service in large numbers in the early sixties. Enthusiasts are justifiably upset when people refer to the RT as the Routemaster!

Seems as if the 53 had already converted to RM (the base version without the extra half size windows)

 

[Union St]

Wow! Thank you so much for all your input. Amazingly detailed information, which I have a habit of including in my books. I live in Washington DC now, but grew up in North Kent, so I have travelled (as a school kid) on the last of the Routemasters. So long ago. Well, late sixties/early seventies Maidstone & District. Anyway, thank you again for the generous sharing of information.

 

[danielcanning]

The London Buses Historic site seems to have a lot of 1966 fare charts - I've tried a couple of other routes at random and not found a 1969 one.

There is a reference in Ken Glazier's book 'London Buses in the 1960s' to fares in 1969 being 6 pence, 1 shilling, or 1/6 - this suggests that the 8 penny fare in 1966 might have increased to a shilling by 1969, so a fare of a shilling would not be wildly inaccurate.

At that time, travelcards / bus passes (broadly speaking) did not exist, and London buses then as now did not do return tickets.

At the risk of stating the absolute obvious, the passenger in 1969 would have got on the bus (probably at a bus stop, but possibly at traffic lights or in slow traffic), gone and sat down, then the conductor would have come round for their fare. I have seen a couple of examples on the telly where passengers have either paid the conductor on the platform on boarding (this did occasionally happen on lightly loaded journeys, but unlikely on a journey from Piccadilly Circus) or in one case, leaning across the bonnet to pay the driver...

The conductor would have issued the ticket with a 'Gibson' ticket machine - short video of conductors in training here.

Smoking was allowed on the top deck of double deck buses then.

If it's of any possible use, in 1969, the conductor could have been a woman (women conductors were taken on during the two wars, but after 1945 were allowed to keep their jobs, and women conductors continued to be recruited) and / or from an ethnic minority - London Transport was recruiting in the West Indies from the late 1950s, and many migrants to London from Ireland and the Commonwealth worked on the buses. (From the location of garages that worked routes 12 and 53, a West Indian is statistically more likely than an Asian.) The driver also may have been from an ethnic minority, but would not - until 1974 - have been a woman.

Why did it take until the early 80's for the Travelcard to become established? Passengers have been interchanging between bus and Tube since at least the dawn of LT so how come it took so long to introduce a multimodal ticket?

 

[Roger1973]

Why did it take until the early 80's for the Travelcard to become established? Passengers have been interchanging between bus and Tube since at least the dawn of LT so how come it took so long to introduce a multimodal ticket?

I'm not sure I know the exact answer to that.

There were some through tickets between tram and underground before LT, when the London United and Metropolitan Electric Tramway networks were part of the Underground group. I don't think these survived long in to LT days.

London County Council Tramways offered fairly comprehensive transfer / return tickets, which were never common on LT buses - these continued on LT trams and trolleybuses until about 1950 when tram to bus conversion started.

I'm not that sure that 'unlimited use' bus passes were common anywhere much before the 1970s - I've seen weekly tickets (from outside London) from the 1950s / 1960s but these were specifically for one return journey a day either 5 or 6 days a week rather than a 'weekly ticket' that allows unlimited travel as it's generally understood now.

From an operator's point of view, this meant that evening journeys to the pub or cinema (etc) were paid for as well.

Speculation on my part, but there may also have been resistance from the trade union side about anything that would reduce cash handling on buses and at stations which in turn would have removed jobs.

 

[341o2]

Seems as if the 53 had already converted to RM (the base version without the extra half size windows)

The Routemaster was primarily a trolleybus replacement
The prewar trolleybus fleet consisted of 1764 vehicles, (the postwar trolleybuses were replacements of older trolleybuses including several destroyed by air raids)
2123 standard (27' 6") RMs were constructed
The RML was introduced in 1962 also replacing trolleybuses, eventually, the RML class totalled 524, some of which went to the Country Bus division.
Also, the first two trolleybus conversion stages used RTs.

Indeed, Routemasters began to replace older motorbuses after 1962.

Early casualties were the prewar RTs, those with Cravens bodies, and those with a lighthouse (roof route indicator)

 

[Roger1973]

so I have travelled (as a school kid) on the last of the Routemasters. So long ago. Well, late sixties/early seventies Maidstone & District.

A slightly pedantic point, but a Routemaster is a specific make / model of bus, and they were only bought new by London Transport (theirs would have got as far east as Gravesend), Northern General and British European Airways. Not all buses with the engine at the front and a rear platform are / were Routemasters.

Maidstone and District's were similar but not quite - as in these three survivors (not my photo)

 

[Busaholic]

Why did it take until the early 80's for the Travelcard to become established? Passengers have been interchanging between bus and Tube since at least the dawn of LT so how come it took so long to introduce a multimodal ticket?

The Twin Rover was introduced in the early 1960s giving (almost) unlimited use of buses and underground for a day at a price of five shillings (25p) in 1964, which had doubled to ten shillings (50p) by 1968. I think it was only available at weekends and Bank Holidays, though. I can't be sure, but I believe it had ceased to exist by the time the Greater London Council took over the operation of the major part of London Transport in January 1970. As for reasons... let's just say the bus and underground operations were run completely independently of one another at almost every level well into the early years of the GLC takeover, neither management nor unions being concerned with the 'bigger picture'. Every chairman of LT and its successors was knighted bar one, Ralph Bennett, who dared to stand up to the then P.M. Margaret Thatcher and got ousted for his temerity. Given the chance, he might well have brought much needed change to that venerable institution while strengthening it too.