Bus routes split in two

[CatfordCat]

I am fairly sure that some guidance was issued on this within the last 10 years - prior to that it depended which traffic area it was, and whether the commissioner's staff spotted the join when you registered it.

some areas were quite happy with services joined in multiple 30-ish mile chunks, some called foul.

my understanding is that it is not lawful to show the real ultimate destination from the original point, even if the route is registered that way - hence the majority of operators who do this showing the 'here - connection to there' display.

First Berkshire's Green Line 702 (Bracknell - Victoria) had been registered in two parts for quite some time but marketed as a through service - I'm fairly sure it now runs as two 'connecting' services.

traveline south east took the line 'we can't come up with a way to show zero minute connections between two services with the same number in a way that shows passengers they don't really have to change - we will just have to show it as if it's a through service' when this guidance came in.

 

[quarella]

The former 172 now 172/72 Stagecoach Aberdare - Porthcawl service was shown for a while on Traveline Cymru as a 2 minute connection at the split point of Bridgend. Not a connection I would risk if not in the know. It now gives a connection time of 8 minutes, but onto the First Cymru X2 Cardiff - Porthcawl service.

 

[padbus]

my understanding is that it is not lawful to show the real ultimate destination from the original point, even if the route is registered that way - hence the majority of operators who do this showing the 'here - connection to there' display..

Which is a shame as the casual may not realise that it was possible to travel to the ultimate destination. Would it be possible to quietly emphasise the end point by using different sized type? For example First's X53 service leaves Exeter showing 'SEATON for Poole' which doesn't really differentiate it from the Stagecoach service to Seaton. If it showed 'Seaton for POOLE' people may realise longer journeys were possible.

 

[AndyW33]

The situation was just the opposite years ago i.e. a route might show as running through from A to B in the timetable, but would require a change of bus (and crew) somewhere midway: this might or might not be alluded to in the timetable. Through fares would be available and the final destination would be displayed. On rare occasions, two different companies would run the two buses, but then it would usually show as a 'joint service'. East Kent and Maidstone and District certainly used these arrangements.

Ribble used to be fond of advertised through journeys that actually weren't. They were known internally as "kiss and turn". The best one was a pair of journeys on X21 between Preston and Carlisle in the early 1970s. Other journeys did indeed run through, but this one pair required passengers to change buses in the laybys at Shap Summit on the A6. Great at this time of year.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Changing buses at Shap Granite on the run from Kendal to Penrith was still happening in the early 90s when I travelled on that route.

Even in 2016 "kiss and turn" hasn't completely disappeared. Arriva certainly do it on the last bus on a Sunday on route 77 (Maidstone - Tunbridge Wells), where through passengers change at West Malling and each vehicle then returns to its starting point.

I dare say there are other instances around as well, and much as it's not ideal for passengers we should perhaps encourage it if it enables one more journey to be run with no dead mileage.

 

[Hophead]

I am fairly sure that some guidance was issued on this within the last 10 years - prior to that it depended which traffic area it was, and whether the commissioner's staff spotted the join when you registered it.

some areas were quite happy with services joined in multiple 30-ish mile chunks, some called foul.

my understanding is that it is not lawful to show the real ultimate destination from the original point, even if the route is registered that way - hence the majority of operators who do this showing the 'here - connection to there' display.

Majority? If this is the case, the operators round my way are in trouble. The timetable books may well show a 'guaranteed connection' but the road-side sheets and the destination blinds go in for no such subterfuge.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Trent Barton don't seem to go in for this nonsense.
The Derby to Leicester and Derby to Bakewell, Nottingham to Chesterfield etc don't seem to have any splits or anything yet are long routes.
High Peak 'split' the Transpeak at both Matlock & Buxton.
Stagecoach 'split' the Sherwood Arrow at Ollerton.
Centrebus 'split' the Nottingham to Peterborough at Oakham & change route numbers.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

A good few years ago, service 15/A which is ran by Stagecoach Perth, the 08:30 journey leaving Comrie to Crieff ran as 15A and got to Crieff at 08:50, but it had to wait in Crieff for 15 minutes before it changed into service 15 from Crieff to Perth at 09:05 as it was classed as an EU journey as it was just over 24 miles.

 

[cool110]

Stagecoach X2/2X Liverpool-Preston changes number at Southport

That one's been changed, it's now X2 on both the limited stop Lancashire leg and all stops Merseyside leg. Destination is displayed as "Southport, Then Liverpool/Preston"

 

[Robertj21a]

Trent Barton don't seem to go in for this nonsense.
The Derby to Leicester and Derby to Bakewell, Nottingham to Chesterfield etc don't seem to have any splits or anything yet are long routes.
High Peak 'split' the Transpeak at both Matlock & Buxton.
Stagecoach 'split' the Sherwood Arrow at Ollerton.
Centrebus 'split' the Nottingham to Peterborough at Oakham & change route numbers.

The Derby - Leicester is Kinchbus, and is/was technically split at EMA.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

There isn't any direct bus from Nottingham to Chesterfield.
The Red Arrow was cut back to just Notts-Derby recently.

 

[Robertj21a]

There isn't any direct bus from Nottingham to Chesterfield.
The Red Arrow was cut back to just Notts-Derby recently.

Yes there is - 'Pronto'.

 

[0B00]

Arriva Midlands once ran the X64 from Shrewsbury to Haney which is now a 64 from Shrewsbury to Market Drayton becoming a 164 from Market Drayton to Hanley. Same bus and driver throughout.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

The Derby - Leicester is Kinchbus, and is/was technically split at EMA.

No mention of it in the actual timetable though!

 

[Busaholic]

Changing buses at Shap Granite on the run from Kendal to Penrith was still happening in the early 90s when I travelled on that route.

Even in 2016 "kiss and turn" hasn't completely disappeared. Arriva certainly do it on the last bus on a Sunday on route 77 (Maidstone - Tunbridge Wells), where through passengers change at West Malling and each vehicle then returns to its starting point.

I dare say there are other instances around as well, and much as it's not ideal for passengers we should perhaps encourage it if it enables one more journey to be run with no dead mileage.

I don't know whether those journeys are subsidised, but without such an arrangement it might well prove not viable to run them.

Another example I can remember from personal experience was the last journey from each end on Western National's 218 Minehead to Taunton in 1967: can't remember where the split occurred, but it certainly did. AS 10cc sang, the things you do for love.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't know whether those journeys are subsidised, but without such an arrangement it might well prove not viable to run them.

Another example I can remember from personal experience was the last journey from each end on Western National's 218 Minehead to Taunton in 1967: can't remember where the split occurred, but it certainly did. AS 10cc sang, the things you do for love.

Watchet or Bishops Lydeard as a guess?

I remember a few kiss and turns for that very reason - usually some rural spot with no facilities other than a pub so that crews and buses were returned to the right depot.

 

[Statto]

In the past Crosville service A1/A2/A3 Chester-Caernarfon were split at Rhyl, passengers had to change buses, however the express L1 ran through.

 

[SCH117X]

Are not some splits a way of counting passengers twice to double up rebates on concessions? Harrogate-Wetherby-York (around 26 miles) is operated as two separate services by Harrogate Coach Travel aka Connexions with the display showing continuing to... on the first half .

 

[455driver]

FWIW, my view is that we should either be all domestic rules (and refuse to comply with the EU law) or we should operate fully on EU rules. The reason for that view is that it's either safe to drive constantly for a given period of time or it isn't. Driving a city bus route is potentially far more tiring than driving a coach up the slow lane of a motorway, yet it's the latter that is more heavily regulated in terms of driver's hours. To me this makes no sense.

Have you done both types of work, bus and coach driving?

 

[Busaholic]

Watchet or Bishops Lydeard as a guess?

I remember a few kiss and turns for that very reason - usually some rural spot with no facilities other than a pub so that crews and buses were returned to the right depot.

Pretty sure it was Watchet : I took the bus from Minehead, gallantly deposited the young lady wherever it was, then caught the same bus back a few minutes later. Unfortunately, one night the 'goodnights' took longer than expected and I had to walk back to Minehead. Oh, to be 19 again

 

[6Gman]

Are not some splits a way of counting passengers twice to double up rebates on concessions? Harrogate-Wetherby-York (around 26 miles) is operated as two separate services by Harrogate Coach Travel aka Connexions with the display showing continuing to... on the first half .

I was wondering about that. If reimbursement is flat-rate per journey there's an incentive to break up longer routes surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was wondering about that. If reimbursement is flat-rate per journey there's an incentive to break up longer routes surely?

It isn't consistent around the country as to how it is done. Mostly it isn't flat-rate, I believe.

 

[AB93]

Isn't it the case (I'm sure I heard it somewhere) that one of the following has to change:-
- The vehicle
- The driver
- The route number displayed
- The destination displayed

So if one of the other ones changes, the destination need not?

I don't think this is the case.

At the end of the day, you could have a service "45" from Anywhereville to Bloggstown, and a "150" from Bloggstown to Charlie Street. You could also have an "88" from Xtown to Bloggstown, and an "88" from Bloggstown to Gamma.

In both cases, they're two separate route registrations, which just happen to terminate in the same place.

I think in the early days, there was some confusion as to what the rules were, which has become clearer to operators since.
For example, at first, Stagecoach split some routes and gave them separate numbers (i.e. an early conversion, the X64 Winchester - Guildford became the X64 Winchester - Alton and X65 Alton - Guildford), whereas now, they tend to use the same number for both/all segments.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Here Stagecoach have the 5 which changes to the 450 at Immingham.
A 5B number would be better for the Barton buses but isn't used.
And timetables for the Humber Flyer list HF1 & HF2 suggesting they secretly use different numbers.

 

[padbus]

I was wondering about that. If reimbursement is flat-rate per journey there's an incentive to break up longer routes surely?

That would only work if passengers had to get off the bus and tap in again.

 

[extendedpaul]

That would only work if passengers had to get off the bus and tap in again.

I remember a few years ago a route in Cornwall, or possibly Devon, where passengers had to leave the bus, walk up or down a road and then rejoin it at the next stop while the bus travelled empty of passengers between the two.

Does that still happen anywhere ?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I remember a few years ago a route in Cornwall, or possibly Devon, where passengers had to leave the bus, walk up or down a road and then rejoin it at the next stop while the bus travelled empty of passengers between the two.

Does that still happen anywhere ?

Sounds like that was a Western Greyhound idea...!