Buses running 5 minutes early.

[_toommm_]

so my local bus is the 120 in Sheffield, which I board opposite Pond Street Bus Station. In the evening it’s due at xx:02, xx:17, xx:32 and xx:47, but it regularly leaves 5 minutes early.

Now I know bus stop times aren’t an exact science, but should it really run to the next stop which is a timing point 5 minutes early?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Times between timing points are just interpolated most of the time. Really they should just show the same time as the previous timing point, and in some towns they do.

If a bus is leaving a timing point 5 minutes early that is naughty, though. There used to be big problems with early running in MK (often over 10 minutes early on evening services) but it was knocked on the head totally with the advent of GPS tracking and has not returned, fortunately. Drivers usually wait time at the relevant timing point where applicable these days, as they should without needing an IT system to catch them if they fail to.

 

[_toommm_]

SOrry, I might not have been clear. The stop it leaves early that I use is not a timing point, but the next stop up is. If there’s that much slack in the evening shouldn’t it be tightened? I have a dodgy knee so hate running for buses!

 

[_toommm_]

SOrry, I might not have been clear. The stop it leaves early that I use is not a timing point, but the next stop up is. If there’s that much slack in the evening shouldn’t it be tightened? I have a dodgy knee so hate running for buses!

 

[transportphoto]

The timing points are where the time will be made up waiting. Best suggestions would be to aim to arrive at the stop at the time the bus should leave the previous timing point - problem averted

 

[Antman]

so my local bus is the 120 in Sheffield, which I board opposite Pond Street Bus Station. In the evening it’s due at xx:02, xx:17, xx:32 and xx:47, but it regularly leaves 5 minutes early.

Now I know bus stop times aren’t an exact science, but should it really run to the next stop which is a timing point 5 minutes early?

Have you contacted the operator about early running? There really is no excuse for it.

 

[Kent Dreamer]

Running five minutes early is a tad too early. But as long as they don’t leave timing points early, then they are in the clear.

 

[Robertj21a]

I

Have you contacted the operator about early running? There really is no excuse for it.

It's an interim point. The timing points are where it shouldn't leave early. Quiet times will often be a problem if the operator wants to maintain clock face times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an interim point. The timing points are where it shouldn't leave early. Quiet times will often be a problem if the operator wants to maintain clock face times.

While it looks odd, the best way to avoid this is just to show the times for the previous timing point at all the interim points and just accept that the bus will be a bit "late" at some of those points rather than attempting to interpolate. Late is near enough always better than early.

 

[quarella]

Are you sure you are not seeing the previous bus running 10 minutes late?

 

[Robertj21a]

While it looks odd, the best way to avoid this is just to show the times for the previous timing point at all the interim points and just accept that the bus will be a bit "late" at some of those points rather than attempting to interpolate. Late is near enough always better than early.

Of course, for many, you can now use the real time apps (i.e Arriva) to locate the bus at any time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, for many, you can now use the real time apps (i.e Arriva) to locate the bus at any time.

Indeed, a real "killer app" as it allows one to leave home precisely timing your walk to arrive just before the bus does rather than having to hang around waiting for it (or miss it). This kind of thing hugely improves the utility of bus travel which is necessarily less precise on timing than rail due to external influences.

 

[_toommm_]

Indeed, a real "killer app" as it allows one to leave home precisely timing your walk to arrive just before the bus does rather than having to hang around waiting for it (or miss it). This kind of thing hugely improves the utility of bus travel which is necessarily less precise on timing than rail due to external influences.

I normally do from my house, however this early running is from the bus station going towards home, and it's the point where I interchange between Sheffield Station and Sheffield Buses - I normally give myself 10 minutes to interchange - 5 mins to walk from even the furthest platform at Sheffield to my bus stop, and 5 minutes waiting time - however, it is five minutes early often.

I know I could modify my pattern of commute to build in an extra 5 minutes wait, but realistically I shouldn't have to do that kind of thing as even between timing points 5 minutes early is excessive IMO.

 

[Andyh82]

This is one of the problems of timetables at every stop with computer generated timings.

I expect it is planned to run 5 mins early and have a decent bit of standing time at the main stop, but the computer generated timings will just even them out between both timing points.

 

[Dentonian]

This is one of the problems of timetables at every stop with computer generated timings.

I expect it is planned to run 5 mins early and have a decent bit of standing time at the main stop, but the computer generated timings will just even them out between both timing points.

I suspect this could be the case in this instance as computers only understand distances, not traffic light locations and other hold ups. OTOH, it will usually be impractical to base an expected time on the previous designated timing point, as that could be 15 minutes and two miles further back. Its just a case of knowing how your service works in practice. Where I live, early running is virtually impossible, but elsewhere in GM, running times can be very slack.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I normally do from my house, however this early running is from the bus station going towards home, and it's the point where I interchange between Sheffield Station and Sheffield Buses - I normally give myself 10 minutes to interchange - 5 mins to walk from even the furthest platform at Sheffield to my bus stop, and 5 minutes waiting time - however, it is five minutes early often.

I know I could modify my pattern of commute to build in an extra 5 minutes wait, but realistically I shouldn't have to do that kind of thing as even between timing points 5 minutes early is excessive IMO.

It seems to me rather ridiculous that a railway station interchange is not a timing point, being honest.

 

[Dentonian]

It seems to me rather ridiculous that a railway station interchange is not a timing point, being honest.

Apologies to the OP if I'm wrong but I assume by "Interchange" they mean Pond Street bus station, albeit 5 minutes to walk would suggest he/she is related to Seb Coe (lol). That would mean that it would not only be pointless having two timing points so close together, it is probable buses would not be allowed to wait at the bus stop(s) nearest the Rail Station. Remember, buses are only allowed to wait a designated timing points and certainly in GM, some such timing points have been (re)moved sat the behest of local councillors. This (along with constantly increasing congestion) is why so many journeys exceed VOSA's recommended 15 minute maximum between timing points.

 

[_toommm_]

Apologies to the OP if I'm wrong but I assume by "Interchange" they mean Pond Street bus station, albeit 5 minutes to walk would suggest he/she is related to Seb Coe (lol). That would mean that it would not only be pointless having two timing points so close together, it is probable buses would not be allowed to wait at the bus stop(s) nearest the Rail Station. Remember, buses are only allowed to wait a designated timing points and certainly in GM, some such timing points have been (re)moved sat the behest of local councillors. This (along with constantly increasing congestion) is why so many journeys exceed VOSA's recommended 15 minute maximum between timing points.

5 minutes to walk between the station and bus station isn't bad to be fair - bearing in mind the pelican crossing takes up to 2 minutes to change even at night.

 

[Mwanesh]

I think the times on the screens are wrong.

 

[_toommm_]

I think the times on the screens are wrong.

What screens?

 

[Stef434]

so my local bus is the 120 in Sheffield, which I board opposite Pond Street Bus Station. In the evening it’s due at xx:02, xx:17, xx:32 and xx:47, but it regularly leaves 5 minutes early.

Now I know bus stop times aren’t an exact science, but should it really run to the next stop which is a timing point 5 minutes early?

Every bus stop that a service passes is technically a timing point or time info point same thing, so a service can operate as early as they please,the only point they cant pass early is a principal timing point which is used to monitor service compliance and which the driver will have a copy of such points on their running boards.
There is also no need to have a PTP at interchanges unless there is a guarantee that both modes of transport will arrive at the same time ,the big two operators expect intending passengers to arrive the bus stop at least two to three minutes the bus is due to depart.

 

[Busaholic]

The Traffic Commissioners are quite clear that early running is a sin punishable by .... well, what precisely? Up to 1 minute early is currently considered officially acceptable, but even that is considered unacceptable by at least one TC. Erratic running can, in itself, lead to revocation of an operator's licence without any other errant behaviour, but it does seem to vary greatly from area to area and operator to operator.

 

[Dentonian]

The Traffic Commissioners are quite clear that early running is a sin punishable by .... well, what precisely? Up to 1 minute early is currently considered officially acceptable, but even that is considered unacceptable by at least one TC. Erratic running can, in itself, lead to revocation of an operator's licence without any other errant behaviour, but it does seem to vary greatly from area to area and operator to operator.

Its the usual story;
a. Anyone with the power to enforce laws only actually punishes individuals/parties as a last resort.
b. The monitoring to discover breaches of the rules is based on the most influential potential "victims" ie. peak hour commuters travelling to/from city/regional centres. OK, Sheffield obviously counts as the latter, but are travelling at right times? Also, you and/or others would need to ensure TCs have frequent and detailed reports.

I have to confess, I couldn't make head nor tail of Stef434's comments, unless they are a combination of some local agreement without relevance beyond specific routes in SY and some First* management taking a "customer is always wrong" attitude.

* To say that bus operators "expect customers to be at the stop 2 or 3 minutes before the bus is due" is arrogant in the extreme. As I know at least one senior manager at Stagecoach Yorkshire from his long tenure in Manchester, I would be absolutely shocked if Stagecoach took this attitude. Since his departure, Stg Manchester has lost focus in many ways but both before and after, the concept of early running here is an absolute No-no. Late running is by far the bigger problem, as I was reminded yesterday when nearly missing a connection in Stockport - and yes, this was down to insufficient running time pre-0900 on a Sunday.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's highly sensible to recommend that passengers are at a stop 2-3 mins early if it's not a timing point as otherwise you're quite likely to miss it !

 

[Dentonian]

It's highly sensible to recommend that passengers are at a stop 2-3 mins early if it's not a timing point as otherwise you're quite likely to miss it !

I think its common sense that 99% of Operators assume their customers have. Besides, I was thinking off designated timing points - which is where Stef434s assertion that all stops are timing points makes no sense in the wider world. TFGM's bus stop displays state they are approximate times, (not actual registered times) where applicable, so I would think other authorities' would state the same. FTR, I used to have a "3 minute" rule, but I now only get to the stop one minute before the bus is due at the previous stop (a timing point). In hundreds of journeys made, I have never just missed the bus I was aiming for - albeit I have had occasions where I have seen the bus just leaving the stop, but subsequently found it was running 9 or even 19 minutes late, not one early.

I should add a "rider", this is based on Hyde Road depot services. As I noticed on Saturday, Wigan (for instance) are not so fastidious; The 34 I caught did indeed leave Piccadilly on time, but left all subsequent timing points 90-120 seconds early......having at least pulled in and waited some time including picking up passengers in a couple of instances.

 

[_toommm_]

I think its common sense that 99% of Operators assume their customers have. Besides, I was thinking off designated timing points - which is where Stef434s assertion that all stops are timing points makes no sense in the wider world. TFGM's bus stop displays state they are approximate times, (not actual registered times) where applicable, so I would think other authorities' would state the same. FTR, I used to have a "3 minute" rule, but I now only get to the stop one minute before the bus is due at the previous stop (a timing point). In hundreds of journeys made, I have never just missed the bus I was aiming for - albeit I have had occasions where I have seen the bus just leaving the stop, but subsequently found it was running 9 or even 19 minutes late, not one early.

I should add a "rider", this is based on Hyde Road depot services. As I noticed on Saturday, Wigan (for instance) are not so fastidious; The 34 I caught did indeed leave Piccadilly on time, but left all subsequent timing points 90-120 seconds early......having at least pulled in and waited some time including picking up passengers in a couple of instances.

Bearing in mind I'm getting to the bus stop 5 minutes before the bus is due which is pretty fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's highly sensible to recommend that passengers are at a stop 2-3 mins early if it's not a timing point as otherwise you're quite likely to miss it !

TBH it'd be sensible to stop using interpolated times and start showing the time from the previous timing point (departure) or the next one (arrival).

OTOH early running from a timing point is inexcusably sloppy, fortunately the GPS tracking systems operators have seem to have mostly knocked that on the head as drivers know they'll get caught if they do.

 

[Dentonian]

TBH it'd be sensible to stop using interpolated times and start showing the time from the previous timing point (departure) or the next one (arrival).

OTOH early running from a timing point is inexcusably sloppy, fortunately the GPS tracking systems operators have seem to have mostly knocked that on the head as drivers know they'll get caught if they do.

As mentioned before, stops can be some distance away from timing points, timewise. Many timing points in GM are more than 30 minutes apart at peak times and indeed more than 15 apart off-peak since LAs have ticketed buses for waiting until heir scheduled departure time.

 

[Dentonian]

Bearing in mind I'm getting to the bus stop 5 minutes before the bus is due which is pretty fair.

I think we'd already established that in your case you are not boarding at a registered timing point. It's also just occured to me that some services have registered arrival times as well as departure times for journeys running through Bus Stations, and its a problem for computers to understand the concept of "arrival" times. Could it be that your service has (say) four minutes stand time at Pond Street built in? I am, of course, assuming that the paper public timetable doesn't show any stand time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As mentioned before, stops can be some distance away from timing points, timewise. Many timing points in GM are more than 30 minutes apart at peak times and indeed more than 15 apart off-peak since LAs have ticketed buses for waiting until heir scheduled departure time.

Which is utterly ridiculous however you look at it.