Buying house backing onto train tracks...

[Whisky Papa]

...
A further aside: assuming you are a first time buyer under no circumstances accept anything the estate agent or sales agent says. Check everything yourself with your solicitor. Also, find your own solicitor based on local recommendation. Don't use one offered to you. I know all that sounds very formal but this is a massive investment and you need to be happy.
...

Quite. I remember in 1984 my older sister being very pleased that she had bought a house off-plan in a new development just south of Stone, and she said I would like it as "there is a branch line at the bottom of the garden". She confirmed the location on an OS map before I broke the news that this was in fact the WCML from Stone to Colwich. At least at that time it was only an hourly service. The trains weren't much of an issue in the end, it was the audible warnings on the level crossing on the B5027 that proved more of a nuisance.

 

[Iskra]

I used to live about 100m away from the railway station in Lancaster as a student. I had a ground floor bedroom and at night I could feel the vibrations from heavy freight trains passing through the station.

A couple of years after that I promoted myself to a flat above a shop in Carnforth again 100m from the WCML, there I could only hear the freight trains when the windows were open. In summer I could hear the steam engines warming up in the morning, but worst of all was the pacer squeal when a 14X came off the Bentham line.

But with all these things, you get used to these sounds.

 

[Bald Rick]

I once enquired about a house at Radlett, that on receiving the details, discovered that it backs on to the MML with about 10 metres of garden. For a bit of fun asked the estate agent about the noise, particularly at night. “Oh the trains stop running then” he said. “That’s funny, I’ve been sending freight trains up there every night for the last decade” was not the answer he expected.

 

[jfisher21]

What do you mean?

They seem a good price, new build is normally a lot more expensive than the second hand market but that does not seem to be the case. However the OP should definitely try and visit the area and consider the other posts here before committing to anything!

 

[Neptune]

I live 1km from a busy commuter route in the Aire Valley and can hear trains at all hours.

25m from the WCML will be noisy as hell day and night and there’s always the possibility of an overnight engineering possession right outside.

 

[urbophile]

A couple of years after that I promoted myself to a flat above a shop in Carnforth again 100m from the WCML, there I could only hear the freight trains when the windows were open.

If that was near the station you would have learnt the dialogue of Brief Encounter by now!

 

[chiltern trev]

Hello to SEA222 in Canada.

There are a lot of good comments on this thread.

I'll now add mine but first our background. We had an elderly relative who lived in a flat in Lancaster about 800m south of the station where the WCML goes over the Lancaster canal and the flat was 30m-50 from the railway line which is on an embankment 20ft up. My wife is a light sleeper and she could manage a night or two but would have vetoed us buying the flat.

We have a new build home and our is Story Homes in north Cumbria - there are Story Homes on the east of Lancaster between the M6 (motorway 3 lanes each way) and a prison so these home would get 24 hour motorway noise as the M6 is busy at night with HGVs Scotland (Glasgow area) to from England. And we have some experience of the Irish Sea into which the river Lune feeds.

Canada - as you are in Canada, I would suggest you rent over here before buying and do not buy off plan.

As other have said, Persimmon do not have a good reputation - I would not buy Persimmon. We have a Story Home - the specification and design is good. The weak point - depends on the quality of the subcontractor used, some are better than others - but Story do have good after care and they do fix things.

The WCML is 24x7x365 and the freights run anytime 24 x 7. Most of the freights are long by UK standards as there are a lot of intermodals on the WCML, i.e. container flats of 25 wagons each 60ft long - so at least twice as long as a Pendolino. The track through Lancaster had a very major upgrade/replace in the last 5 years which permitted bi-directional working on all through lines 3 though platforms and 2 centre bypass/through lines and fast through lines. Pre Covid there was at least 1 fast nonstop Euston<>Glasgow each way (one was about 1600 northbound) and these go through at line speed of 90mph. The freights will go through at the freight line speed of 60 or 75 mph and will make more noise than the Pendolino and will make a racket over each point/turnout of which there is at least one on the Carlisle Bridge.

But the night maintenance will be the noisier and more at week-ends at all hours.

Think about how to get in or out of this quayside development - look at the map. Notice that Lancaster has a one way circular system round the town centre which you cannot avoid and there are only 2 ways into this quayside area - 1 past the station (Meeting House Lane) and one along the quay (St George's Quay - comes out near the bus station). The one way system is notorious for slow traffic - one of the worst times of year is November/December when the students are still at the University (which is very large) and Christmas shoppers.

Flood. It has been mentioned that the bus station flooded a few years back. Do not believe the 1 in 50 years or 1 in 100 years or 1 in 200 years predictions for flooding. Since 2000, there have been at least 3 instances of these 1 in 50/100/200s and on each occasion there was at least a months rainfall in a continuous downpour of 24-48 hours. Lancaster and Morecombe does not get the downpour. The downpours are upstream in Cumbria and the Lancaster flood was a big one where a low pressure system sat over Cumbria for 48 hours or so and it rained and rained and the rivers Derwent (Keswick/Cockermouth and out via Workington), Eden (out via Carlisle), Kent (out via Kendal) and Lune (out via Lancaster) all had floods. The river Lune heads inland east for 15 miles and then turns north up to Tebay and the Lune Gorge which is where the rain lands. Last week, June, there was 24 hours rain due to a stationary low pressure system and Seatoller (central Lake District) recorded the UK June monthly rainfall record in just the 24 hours.

The Lancaster flood took out the Holiday Inn (by the M6 J34 junction), the bus station and almost the electric power switching station that supplies all of Lancaster and Morecambe. The electric power switching station was only saved by building, very fast (in less than 24 hours) an extra flood wall 2m high around all sides and installing some pumps inside the protected area - the flood got within a few inches of overtopping the extra barrier that was added. As noted elsewhere, the bus station was up to 6 ft under water.

So you would need to walk the riverside from Skerton Bridge (A6S) past the A6N bridge (used to be the electric railway to Morecambe, and Sainsbury's (food supermarket) - this section is a raised embankment. It then becomes a raised flood wall (reinforced concrete wall) under Carlisle Bridge, past your development and on for a further 1 mile (past all the other new developments). See what you think of it and check for any gates in the wall and any drains. Ideally there should be no gates but ramps up to the top of wall level and down the other side to get from one side of the flood wall to the other. Sooner or later someone will leave a gate open or not close a gate - it has happened elsewhere and the water came in. Also any drain into the river needs to have a flap valve on the exit and the flap valve placed the correct way - Willowholme Carlisle flooded and a rumour I heard was the flap valve was installed the wrong way round and so the river was allowed in - Stagecoach Carlisle depot, the BT depot, a big Sainsbury's and McVities biscuit factory all flooded (no Ginger Nuts for months).

But the river Lune is tidal in Lancaster so the worst time is when there has been heavy rain upstream and it all comes down river at the same time as a westerly gale is blowing at a spring high tide - so westerly gale = add 1m t high tide, spring tide = add 1m to high tide and a high of water coming downstream means... This is a similar reason as to why the Thames Barrier was installed. For tide heights use Heysham Port.

And if you flood you will then have insurance problems and the next buyer will not be able to get a mortgage.

 

[Mikey C]

I once enquired about a house at Radlett, that on receiving the details, discovered that it backs on to the MML with about 10 metres of garden. For a bit of fun asked the estate agent about the noise, particularly at night. “Oh the trains stop running then” he said. “That’s funny, I’ve been sending freight trains up there every night for the last decade” was not the answer he expected.

Radlett has a lovely cricket ground, but it's right next to the MML and as a result you get the noise of trains thundering past every minute or so, which rather spoils the tranquillity!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I once enquired about a house at Radlett, that on receiving the details, discovered that it backs on to the MML with about 10 metres of garden. For a bit of fun asked the estate agent about the noise, particularly at night. “Oh the trains stop running then” he said. “That’s funny, I’ve been sending freight trains up there every night for the last decade” was not the answer he expected.

You could afford Radlett ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Radlett has a lovely cricket ground, but it's right next to the MML and as a result you get the noise of trains thundering past very minute or so, which rather spoils the tranquillity!

Indeed so. Michael Atherton’s son plays for them, or at least he did a year or two back.

You could afford Radlett ?

The house was much cheaper than expected. It became clear why when you opened the bathroom window and could tell which team each train driver supported from his/her mug.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Don’t do it!

I used to live about two hundred yards from a busy station on the North Clyde Line in Glasgow. The trains themselves were electric so you hardly noticed them. What drove me spare were the incessant beeping noises that passenger trains make when they open and close their doors, combined with the automated announcements both on the trains and on the platforms. Relentless beeping noises and a robotic voice stating, quite loudly, that “this train is for Balloch”, “the next train at platform 3 will be...”. It’s just part of the noise during the day, but at night can be very annoying. Lancaster station is an important station on the busiest line in the country so this problem is likely to be several times worse than mine was!

In addition to that, because Lancaster is on such an important line, it will have a lot of freight trains, and these tend to be diesel. The engines can be very loud- where I live now I am half a mile from the railway but sometimes hear a train roaring in the middle of the night.

Remember also that stations can sadly attract antisocial behaviour- teenagers who can’t go to pubs congregate in them.

Having said all that, you do get used to these things- I’ve lived on one of the busiest roads out of Glasgow, and under the airport flight path, and you very quickly stop noticing them. But neither of them are as annoying as train announcements!

 

[alxndr]

The engines can be very loud- where I live now I am half a mile from the railway but sometimes hear a train roaring in the middle of the night.

I'm a mile from the nearest line and with the windows open I just heard a train. It was the sound of it going over a set of points (see my earlier comment about that being my concern with the location of this particular house) rather than the engine though.

That said, I'm not sure if anyone else would have pinpointed the source of the sound. It's taken me a couple of years to realise I'm not just imagining it being a train. I'm also convinced I can hear horns if the wind is blowing in the right direction, but that one might be my imagination.

 

[Strat-tastic]

I'm a mile from the nearest line and with the windows open I just heard a train. It was the sound of it going over a set of points (see my earlier comment about that being my concern with the location of this particular house) rather than the engine though.

That said, I'm not sure if anyone else would have pinpointed the source of the sound. It's taken me a couple of years to realise I'm not just imagining it being a train. I'm also convinced I can hear horns if the wind is blowing in the right direction, but that one might be my imagination.

I think you are hearing horns and it's not your imagination. At one of my spotting locations, on a windy day I was hearing horns of approaching trains from about three miles away, according to my timing and assumption of speed.

 

[BRX]

I live about 15m from a busy freight & passenger line in London.
EMUs make hardly any noise, except for when they go over points a few hundred metres away, or when the wheels screech on a tight curve also some distance away.
It's not unusual for a class 66 to go past at full tilt but slow speed, taking a heavy freight train up the incline. The house often vibrates, earthquake style.
However, none of these noises actually feel like they create much disturbance. With those 66s it can sometimes be loud enough that I have to close the window to hear the other end of a phone call.
In summer with the window open, all this is audible at night but I'm rarely woken up by a passing train. I wouldn't say I'm an especially good sleeper.
The road at the front of the house creates much more disturbance. If the traffic on that road could be made to disappear that would be marvellous, but the railway line isn't a bother.
Of course, much of this may be psychological, as I'm into railways. But there's something about trains that make them less disturbing than road traffic, I think. There are ways in which the sound can actually be quite soothing.

As others have said, the main issue related to the railway is noise from engineering work. A rail grinder or tamping machine at 2am is rarely welcome. We get letters from Network Rail through the door notifying of upcoming work, but the dates it actually happens seldom seem to bear much resemblance to what those letters say. There are maybe 2 or 3 nights a year where the engineering work is enough to disrupt sleep.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I think you are hearing horns and it's not your imagination. At one of my spotting locations, on a windy day I was hearing horns of approaching trains from about three miles away, according to my timing and assumption of speed.

Am I correct in saying that this will be exacerbated at Lancaster by trains having to slow and sound their horns as they pass through the station? I.e. diesel freight trains’ engines will be audible

 

[Iskra]

Am I correct in saying that this will be exacerbated at Lancaster by trains having to slow and sound their horns as they pass through the station? I.e. diesel freight trains’ engines will be audible

There's no particular reason for abnormal amounts of sounding the horn at Lancaster. Fast trains pass on the through lines, so you would get it less than somewhere like Meadowhall through lines or Dewsbury heading West for example where drivers sound the horn to warn passengers on the platform that the train runs directly along. Trains don't really slow down too much at Lancaster on the through lines- it's about 90mph I think.

When I used to live near Lancaster station, you didn't hear too much horn blowing.

I can hear clear horn blowing from the line about a mile away from my house at Ecclesfield though on a still day due to a whistle board there.

 

[chiltern trev]

Am I correct in saying that this will be exacerbated at Lancaster by trains having to slow and sound their horns as they pass through the station? I.e. diesel freight trains’ engines will be audible

At Lancaster there are 4 through lines together - northbound platform slow (platform 3?), northbound fast through, southbound fast through and southbound platform slow (platform 4?) - so fast through trains will not normally going through the platform line - and I guess no horn honking unless something amiss.

 

[tiptoptaff]

There's no requirement to sound the horn when passing through a station, so this wouldn't be a regular thing anyway.

 

[Skymonster]

I lived in a house that backed onto a main line for many years. It was mainly DMUs but also some heavy freight and a few HSTs. It was permanently welded rail, linespeed 90 I believe.

Firstly noise: My sleep is disturbed by noise and for the first week or two the trains did wake me, but after that I did not notice them. The only thing that did wake me subsequently was a rail grinder, because of its unusual noise and lighting (they also completely replaced the track at one time, but that's another story). It was very rare that the horns were used although I guess that is often a location-specific issue.

Secondly vibration: the DMUs (158s) did nothing, nor did the slow freight trains (mainly GBRf / Freightliner 66s and the 100t hoppers). However, the HSTs did cause a bit of vibration when they went past at full bore but it was nothing major - it didn't rattle things in the house. It started about the time you could hear it, and ended in much the same timeframe. In all the time we lived in the property that did not cause any structural problems whatsoever, and no issues were identified in the survey when we moved away.

 

[WesternLancer]

Wow, thank you so much everybody for your input and information! All of it is extremely helpful. We live in Canada (my wife is Canadian) currently so we haven’t been able to go see the train noise for ourselves, but between watching some YouTube videos and the information you all have given we have a much better idea now. A lot to think about so again, thanks so much for your replies they are so amazing and helpful!

If you are thinking of moving from Canada and thus can't recce the area in detail I'd be looking to rent at first to get a feel for an area. UK property laws mean that quite easy to get a 6 month tenancy and leave after that (as they usually have 6 month break clauses to favour landlords who want to evict poor quality tenants s- that works both ways if you want to leave) - or a 1 or 2 year tenancy that basically you just break off in due course (a landlord could in theory sue you for breach of tenancy agreement for lot rent but very few would as it is common practice for tenants to do that and landlords find new tenancies relatively easy to fill).

I'd enquire with estate agents to say you need to rent for at least a year, perhaps longer, and they will have plenty of stuff for you to choose from in my view - including probably homes on that very estate newly build and snapped up by landlords as rental investments.

Try Rightmove website to get a feel for what is available to rent in the area.

I'd certainly want to get to know an areas before I took the plunge and bought a place, and renting does permit that option.

Also allows you to get the feel for property price direction of travel which may well be quite uncertain due to covid scenario at the moment.

EDIT - I now see others have also suggested the rental option to the OP in this scenario!

 

[thelem]

Do not believe the 1 in 50 years or 1 in 100 years or 1 in 200 years predictions for flooding.

I think chiltern trev is saying that "1 in 50 years" is an underestimate due to climate change. He could well be right, but let's assume that 1 in 50 years is correct and consider what it really means. It doesn't mean you can live in the house for 49 years and then the following year it will flood. It means there will be a 1 in 50 chance of the property flooding in any given year.

Imagine on 1st January you were given a pack of cards and asked to pick one at random. If you drew the Ace of Spades, then it would mean that later that year you would need to move out of your house for a month and completely redecorate and refurnish your ground floor. Is that a risk you'd be willing to take?

 

[thenorthern]

It depends on the line.

Back in the 1990s when I was a kid we went to look at a house that backed onto the Lickey Incline. My mum asked the seller what the railway at the back was and the seller said they thought it was only sidings but during that vist 3 express trains went past. The Lickey incline is not sidings and given Operation Princess which significantly increased the number of CrossCountry Trains and also the electrification of the Lickey Incline I dread to think what it would be like now.

 

[randyrippley]

I know that area well. You WILL get a lot of noise both during the day and night, Carlisle bridge acts like a sounding board and due to its height the sound travels. Freight trains hammering through will almost certainly wake your wife.
Two other points that have already been brought up: road access is bad, everything either has to go via station road or St Georges Quay - which means a journey round the town circular one way system. If you have to commute, forget it. Lancaster has some of the worst traffic in the UK, even after the Bay Gateway was built
Flooding. Flood protection barriers were installed around 12 years ago and they're not big enough. When Storm Desmond hit the barriers were overtopped. I'm not sure how far the flooding went on that plot, but the river-facing properties were flooded, and the road was closed for several days - you would have been cut off.

 

[johnmoly]

I had a mate that used to live next to a railway line down South, the only time he couldn't sleep properly was when the drivers went on strike. He couldn't get used to the quiet.

 

[randyrippley]

Hello to SEA222 in Canada.

There are a lot of good comments on this thread.

I'll now add mine but first our background. We had an elderly relative who lived in a flat in Lancaster about 800m south of the station where the WCML goes over the Lancaster canal and the flat was 30m-50 from the railway line which is on an embankment 20ft up. My wife is a light sleeper and she could manage a night or two but would have vetoed us buying the flat.

We have a new build home and our is Story Homes in north Cumbria - there are Story Homes on the east of Lancaster between the M6 (motorway 3 lanes each way) and a prison so these home would get 24 hour motorway noise as the M6 is busy at night with HGVs Scotland (Glasgow area) to from England. And we have some experience of the Irish Sea into which the river Lune feeds.

Canada - as you are in Canada, I would suggest you rent over here before buying and do not buy off plan.

As other have said, Persimmon do not have a good reputation - I would not buy Persimmon. We have a Story Home - the specification and design is good. The weak point - depends on the quality of the subcontractor used, some are better than others - but Story do have good after care and they do fix things.

The WCML is 24x7x365 and the freights run anytime 24 x 7. Most of the freights are long by UK standards as there are a lot of intermodals on the WCML, i.e. container flats of 25 wagons each 60ft long - so at least twice as long as a Pendolino. The track through Lancaster had a very major upgrade/replace in the last 5 years which permitted bi-directional working on all through lines 3 though platforms and 2 centre bypass/through lines and fast through lines. Pre Covid there was at least 1 fast nonstop Euston<>Glasgow each way (one was about 1600 northbound) and these go through at line speed of 90mph. The freights will go through at the freight line speed of 60 or 75 mph and will make more noise than the Pendolino and will make a racket over each point/turnout of which there is at least one on the Carlisle Bridge.

But the night maintenance will be the noisier and more at week-ends at all hours.

Think about how to get in or out of this quayside development - look at the map. Notice that Lancaster has a one way circular system round the town centre which you cannot avoid and there are only 2 ways into this quayside area - 1 past the station (Meeting House Lane) and one along the quay (St George's Quay - comes out near the bus station). The one way system is notorious for slow traffic - one of the worst times of year is November/December when the students are still at the University (which is very large) and Christmas shoppers.

Flood. It has been mentioned that the bus station flooded a few years back. Do not believe the 1 in 50 years or 1 in 100 years or 1 in 200 years predictions for flooding. Since 2000, there have been at least 3 instances of these 1 in 50/100/200s and on each occasion there was at least a months rainfall in a continuous downpour of 24-48 hours. Lancaster and Morecombe does not get the downpour. The downpours are upstream in Cumbria and the Lancaster flood was a big one where a low pressure system sat over Cumbria for 48 hours or so and it rained and rained and the rivers Derwent (Keswick/Cockermouth and out via Workington), Eden (out via Carlisle), Kent (out via Kendal) and Lune (out via Lancaster) all had floods. The river Lune heads inland east for 15 miles and then turns north up to Tebay and the Lune Gorge which is where the rain lands. Last week, June, there was 24 hours rain due to a stationary low pressure system and Seatoller (central Lake District) recorded the UK June monthly rainfall record in just the 24 hours.

The Lancaster flood took out the Holiday Inn (by the M6 J34 junction), the bus station and almost the electric power switching station that supplies all of Lancaster and Morecambe. The electric power switching station was only saved by building, very fast (in less than 24 hours) an extra flood wall 2m high around all sides and installing some pumps inside the protected area - the flood got within a few inches of overtopping the extra barrier that was added. As noted elsewhere, the bus station was up to 6 ft under water.

So you would need to walk the riverside from Skerton Bridge (A6S) past the A6N bridge (used to be the electric railway to Morecambe, and Sainsbury's (food supermarket) - this section is a raised embankment. It then becomes a raised flood wall (reinforced concrete wall) under Carlisle Bridge, past your development and on for a further 1 mile (past all the other new developments). See what you think of it and check for any gates in the wall and any drains. Ideally there should be no gates but ramps up to the top of wall level and down the other side to get from one side of the flood wall to the other. Sooner or later someone will leave a gate open or not close a gate - it has happened elsewhere and the water came in. Also any drain into the river needs to have a flap valve on the exit and the flap valve placed the correct way - Willowholme Carlisle flooded and a rumour I heard was the flap valve was installed the wrong way round and so the river was allowed in - Stagecoach Carlisle depot, the BT depot, a big Sainsbury's and McVities biscuit factory all flooded (no Ginger Nuts for months).

But the river Lune is tidal in Lancaster so the worst time is when there has been heavy rain upstream and it all comes down river at the same time as a westerly gale is blowing at a spring high tide - so westerly gale = add 1m t high tide, spring tide = add 1m to high tide and a high of water coming downstream means... This is a similar reason as to why the Thames Barrier was installed. For tide heights use Heysham Port.

And if you flood you will then have insurance problems and the next buyer will not be able to get a mortgage.

This is a pretty accurate description except for.........
the electrical substation was actually flooded and we lost power for several days
that whole walk you describe was under water and debris, Sainsbury was flooded, the road was deep in water at the Three Mariners, the whole quay was cut off
if you're used to driving on the wrong side of the road in Canada, the Lancaster one way system will be one heck of a culture shock and sanity check.
I'm guessing you're attached to one of the Universities? Try looking on the east or south sides of the city, not the west

 

[Iskra]

While Lancaster’s one way system is busy, there are ways to avoid having to do a lap everytime you head South, if you live on the West of the city.

Recent posts are a bit negative. Lancaster is a nice place to live overall.

 

[WesternLancer]

Obv given many of the regulars on this site are hardened rail enthusiasts, I can only conclude that the reason for the more negative comments on this thread are to put the OP off buying here so one of us can get a bargain house in prime position close to the action on the tracks..

After all I can see myself setting my alarm to make sure I'm ready to spot the Caledonian sleepers going through each night!

 

[randyrippley]

While Lancaster’s one way system is busy, there are ways to avoid having to do a lap everytime you head South, if you live on the West of the city.

Recent posts are a bit negative. Lancaster is a nice place to live overall.

nice city, but that estate is in the wrong location

 

[typefish]

I live approximately 10 metres from the ECML at Heaton and I've pretty much had the window open since February.

Sometimes it does get a bit loud (especially if a '60 is passing by on the way to Lynemouth) but I'm largely used to it.

If anything it's the house shaking that's the oddest bit.

 

[class 9]

A quick look on RTT from a few days ago, there were 28 trains between midnight and 7am, if you've a light sleeper in the house I'd avoid.