Buying on app. on train

[CHESHIRECAT]

So got train at Piccadilly tonight. Had ticket for inbound journey not for onward so tried to buy on app
.bad 4g and Conductor came round as purchase finished..explained what I was doing amd he said you can't do that as onboard (wasn't short faring or anything)
Scanned ticket and it came up with
'Warning purchased on train' done this before no issues; have a railcard which wasn't asked for
Said he would make a report; offered details but said wasn't needed?
Couple of questions..is buying on app not allowed on train? And surely to make a report needs my details?
NORTHERN train; used Avanti app pnmy because it's easiest to use

 

[Dai Corner]

You're required to buy a ticket before boarding the train where there are facilities to do so, which there obviously are at a station like Piccadilly. Northern will be able to get your details from Avanti.

 

[AlterEgo]

You're required to buy a ticket before boarding the train where there are facilities to do so, which there obviously are at a station like Piccadilly. Northern will be able to get your details from Avanti.

And just to emphasise for the OP’s benefit, it’s a criminal offence under the Bylaws.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

So what's the likely scenario ? I had no intention of avoiding payment..just couldn't complete the transaction started before departure
Was quite happy to offer name etc.
Also wasn't asked to pay (again) which tbh would have done to save any issues!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have to have completed the purchase before departure (theoretically before boarding but it won't know that). This is to stop people holding off until they see staff coming.

I would figure you'll get sent a settlement of around £100.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Ok thanks
So assuming conductor does the report Northern go to avanti for mý details and that's how they contact ?

 

[Western Sunset]

Just wondering how the OP got onto the station. Surely there are gatelines at Man Pic?

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Hi
Gatelines open
Had come from elsewhere
Also for info have had no issues with Northern before

 

[Western Sunset]

Hi
Gatelines open
Had come from elsewhere

Ta

 

[185143]

Is it possible that the conductor may have simply told the OP they were "making a report" as a scare tactic?

Just seems odd that the OP offered details and they were refused. I know Northern can get details from Avanti, but surely if the conductor obtained valid details from the OP which matched what Northern obtain from Avanti then it'd show that the OP is more likely to engage with the process, and remove any possibility of them claiming they weren't travelling.

 

[plugwash]

Just wondering how the OP got onto the station. Surely there are gatelines at Man Pic?

Man Pic is a mess.

At the concourse end the lower-numbered platforms have ticket gates but they are frequently left open. Some of the gates are operated by Avanti and others by TPE and you will sometimes find the Avanti gates left open while the TPE ones are closed or vice-versa. The high numbered platforms don't have gates but frequently have manual checks by people in northern uniform (not sure if they are actual northern staff or contractors or a mixure of both).

At the overbridge end all the "main shed" platforms are connected to each other, to the link bridge lounge and platforms 13/14. The link bridge lounge can be accessed via a direct lift from Fairfield St. It's many years since I encountered a ticket check at the overbridge end of the station.

 

[skyhigh]

To be honest I think it's unlikely anything further will come from this.

However, just to reinforce what's mentioned above - it is a requirement to purchase before you board where facilities are available, and you leave yourself open to a penalty fare or prosecution if you don't do so.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Thanks all..Will update if/when anything comes of it
Interested that Northern can approach Avanti to get my details..presume GDPR not relevant...

 

[Dai Corner]

Thanks all..Will update if/when anything comes of it
Interested that Northern can approach Avanti to get my details..presume GDPR not relevant...

Exempt from data protection laws as its for the detection or investigation of crime.

Whether boarding a train without a valid ticket should be a criminal offence is probably one for another thread.

 

[Turtle]

Exempt from data protection laws as its for the detection or investigation of crime.

Whether boarding a train without a valid ticket should be a criminal offence is probably one for another thread.

So once again we enter the Alice in Wonderland world of "The Railway" where a solemn discussion can take place about the "criminality" of an honest fare paying passenger. To compound this, the unjust levying of a fine, in all but name, of possibly £100 is mentioned in passing as this is a completely normal occurrence. There has been no pecuniary loss to the TOC and any financial penalty is in effect legalised extortion using outdated 19th century legislation in the 21st century. There is another thread on this site as to whether The Railway makes life difficult for its customers. I rest my case!

 

[miami]

"Warning purchased on train"

How would it know that? That the ticket purchase time is after the specific train last departed a station? So the scanner knows the actual time (not the timetabled time) of departure?

 

[Haywain]

an honest fare paying passenger.

I’m going to take issue with this because buying immediately before a ticket check doesn’t look a lot like ‘honest’ behaviour when an opportunity to pay has been passed. It looks more like opportunist dishonesty - pay when/if challenged. However, I take the OP at face value and am not suggesting there was any dishonest intent on their part.

"Warning purchased on train"

How would it know that? That the ticket purchase time is after the specific train last departed a station? So the scanner knows the actual time (not the timetabled time) of departure?

The scanner may not ‘know’ the specific departure time but the holder of the scanner certainly will.

 

[Dai Corner]

"Warning purchased on train"

How would it know that? That the ticket purchase time is after the specific train last departed a station? So the scanner knows the actual time (not the timetabled time) of departure?

Guards only check tickets on board trains.

 

[bunnahabhain]

So once again we enter the Alice in Wonderland world of "The Railway" where a solumn discussion can take place about the "criminality" of an honest fare paying passenger. To compound this, the unjust levying of a fine, in all but name, of possibly £100 is mentioned in passing as this is a completely normal occurrence. There has been no pecuniary loss to the TOC and any financial penalty is in effect legalised extortion using outdated 19th century legislation in the 21st century. There is another thread on this site as to whether The Railway makes life difficult for its customers. I rest my case!


solemn

There is an increasing number of people who chance it and buy a ticket 1 or 2 minutes before they see you, or say "I'm just loading it" whilst making lots of taps and holding their phone in an uncomfortable way to avoid it pointing towards me. In the past few months the scanning apps have all updated to warn when a ticket was purchased after departure. At some point the TOCs will start taking action to prevent the chancers.

It's no different to walking towards the exit at Tesco with a loaf of bread, seeing the security guard and saying "Oh I'll just pay for this". In this example it may have been honest intentions, but they still boarded without a ticket and it should be for the authorised person to make the decision about what ticket is sold, and whether any discounts should be applied based on the circumstances. In this instance it may have met the connecting service requirements for a full range of tickets, however my suspicions are raised by the "Bad 4G and Conductor came around as the purchase finished" statement. I highly doubt this and it sounds like the Conductor did too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Warning purchased on train"

How would it know that? That the ticket purchase time is after the specific train last departed a station? So the scanner knows the actual time (not the timetabled time) of departure?

It wouldn't be particularly hard for it to know that, but it also wouldn't be particularly hard for it just to be the timetabled departure and for staff to know if they're late. It's a flag for them to use in their decision, not an absolute "not valid".

In Switzerland, notably, it is strict!

It's no different to walking towards the exit at Tesco with a loaf of bread, seeing the security guard and saying "Oh I'll just pay for this". In this example it may have been honest intentions, but they still boarded without a ticket and it should be for the authorised person to make the decision about what ticket is sold, and whether any discounts should be applied based on the circumstances. In this instance it may have met the connecting service requirements for a full range of tickets, however my suspicions are raised by the "Bad 4G and Conductor came around as the purchase finished" statement. I highly doubt this and it sounds like the Conductor did too.

If you're in a last minute rush, the sensible thing to do is to advise the guard of this as you board and they'll probably treat you as honest (and advise any boarding RPIs to do so too). Same as the old fashioned approach of asking if they'll sell you one.

If they discover you purchasing as they get to you then that's just more than a little bit suspicious. It's a bit like the old Merseyside dodge of scratching off a Saveaway when you see the inspectors get on.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It wouldn't be particularly hard for it to know that, but it also wouldn't be particularly hard for it just to be the timetabled departure and for staff to know if they're late. It's a flag for them to use in their decision, not an absolute "not valid".

In Switzerland, notably, it is strict!



If you're in a last minute rush, the sensible thing to do is to advise the guard of this as you board and they'll probably treat you as honest (and advise any boarding RPIs to do so too). Same as the old fashioned approach of asking if they'll sell you one.

If they discover you purchasing as they get to you then that's just more than a little bit suspicious. It's a bit like the old Merseyside dodge of scratching off a Saveaway when you see the inspectors get on.

My policy is generally "honesty pays", come and ask for help and I'll help, take the decision away from me and I'll follow the rules.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I’m going to take issue with this because buying immediately before a ticket check doesn’t look a lot like ‘honest’ behaviour when an opportunity to pay has been passed. It looks more like opportunist dishonesty - pay when/if challenged. However, I take the OP at face value and am not suggesting there was any dishonest intent on their part.


The scanner may not ‘know’ the specific departure time but the holder of the scanner certainly will.

DORIS knows as part of the set up is to select the train that you're checking tickets on.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's no different to walking towards the exit at Tesco with a loaf of bread, seeing the security guard and saying "Oh I'll just pay for this".

It's very different indeed. Tesco won't then threaten to prosecute and charge you £100 more.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's very different indeed. Tesco won't then threaten to prosecute and charge you £100 more.

Because unlike the railway Tesco can't prosecute privately, they have to go through the police and Crown Prosecution Service (who haven't got the resources to prosecute somebody stealing a loaf of bread).

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's very different indeed. Tesco won't then threaten to prosecute and charge you £100 more.

It's more like picking a bag of crisps off the shelf and eating them but only offering to pay if one of the staff questions you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's more like picking a bag of crisps off the shelf and eating them but only offering to pay if one of the staff questions you.

You do, to be fair, occasionally get debates about people eating stuff on the way round intending to pay for it by scanning the empty pack at the till. If the passenger did intend to pay it's a bit more like that. It seems tacitly accepted for that to be done for a kid to have something to shut them up, but not so much for adults to do it.

Some supermarkets dealt with this by offering free fruit on entry for kids, then you don't have the confusion about whether it's theft or not.

 

[skyhigh]

however my suspicions are raised by the "Bad 4G and Conductor came around as the purchase finished" statement.

While I take the OP at face value, "I couldn't buy a ticket because of bad 4G" isn't a brilliant excuse when there are plentiful TVMs and a ticket office available at your starting station

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I take the OP at face value, "I couldn't buy a ticket because of bad 4G" isn't a brilliant excuse when there are plentiful TVMs and a ticket office available at your starting station

Fundamentally if you're going to buy on the actual train using an app, you do need to ensure you've bought before the doors shut and be ready to get off if it looks like it's going to fail. I've done that before.

 

[Dai Corner]

Just remembered that I have been in the OPs position, arriving at the station at the last minute and buying an e-Ticket as I boarded. The TfW Guard took my word for it and didn't come back to check. She'd have had plenty of time to do so as there were very few passengers on the train.

Different TOCs have different policies and different guards different interpretations.

 

[yorkie]

Supermarket analogies are deeply flawed; any such analogies are limited to either amusement purposes or perhaps moralistic purposes and not for legal equivalence.

Can I ask in future if anyone wishes to make a supermarket (or other) analogy, please create a new thread (or use an existing one dedicated to that purpose) and link back to the original post/thread from there.

So got train at Piccadilly tonight. Had ticket for inbound journey not for onward so tried to buy on app
.bad 4g and Conductor came round as purchase finished..explained what I was doing amd he said you can't do that as onboard (wasn't short faring or anything)
Scanned ticket and it came up with
'Warning purchased on train' done this before no issues; have a railcard which wasn't asked for
Said he would make a report; offered details but said wasn't needed?
Couple of questions..is buying on app not allowed on train? And surely to make a report needs my details?
NORTHERN train; used Avanti app pnmy because it's easiest to use

What time exactly did you board the train, what time was the train scheduled to depart, why time did it actually depart (if different) and when was the purchase completed?

Hi
Gatelines open
Had come from elsewhere
Also for info have had no issues with Northern before

Can you clarify what you mean by come from elsewhere? What was your full journey by rail and if you came from elsewhere by rail, did you have any other tickets and what facilities were available from your origin station? What time did any other train arrive at Piccadilly?

So once again we enter the Alice in Wonderland world of "The Railway" where a solumn discussion can take place about the "criminality" of an honest fare paying passenger. To compound this, the unjust levying of a fine, in all but name, of possibly £100 is mentioned in passing as this is a completely normal occurrence. There has been no pecuniary loss to the TOC and any financial penalty is in effect legalised extortion using outdated 19th century legislation in the 21st century. There is another thread on this site as to whether The Railway makes life difficult for its customers. I rest my case!


solemn

Can I ask that replies to disputes follow the guidelines posted in this section; if anyone feels the system is wrong then that is best discussed in a separate thread (a new one of there isn't a suitable existing one).

Debating the right of wrongs in a thread where someone is seeking advice is problematic as it makes it difficult for people to establish what their best course of action is and it detracts from the issue which is to advise the passenger.

We have no problems with such debates being had but it just needs to be in a separate thread (people can link to/from each thread as appropriate)

Many thanks.