Buying on board on EMT,crosscountry and london midland

[Tin Rocket]

What policy do east midlands trains,crosscountry and london midland operate in regard to buying on board,for example if you are running late at the stationor there are queues at the ticket machines and the ticket windows and you board the train with no ticket,does the guard take a dim view of this or can you happily just purchase a ticket when on board?

 

[yorkie]

I'm pretty sure it's a case of full fare on board (Anytime single or return and no railcard discount). I think penalty fares may apply on LM in the Birmingham and London areas though, not sure about EMT.

 

[EM2]

EMT definitely don't like it, which is why they want to put barriers in at all their stations.
No penalty fares though.

 

[glynn80]

London Midland operate a penalty fares scheme on practically their whole network, exact routes can be found in their Penalty Fares PDF (http://www.londonmidland.com/app/webroot/files/cache/penalty fares booklet.pdf).

So if you were to board a LM service without a ticket you would be liable to paying a penalty fare, unless a member of LM staff had allowed you to board without a ticket. This is regardless of whether the ticket office had a long queue or not (even if it doesn't meet the target in their Passenger Charter).

For the other TOCs listed you would just be charged the Full Fare i.e. the Anytime Single/Return with no railcard discount, this is unless there were no facilities available to purchase your ticket where you boarded.

 

[MCR247]

EMT make you pay the full open single ticket i think.

 

[MKB]

Has this policy ever been tested in the County Court?

The conditions of carriage regarding penalty fares allow you to travel if there are no ticketing facilities in the station. If the TOC passenger charter says you should be able to buy a ticket in x minutes, and you arrive x minutes before your train and do not get to the front of the queue in time (and therefore join your train with the intention of buying on the train instead), then I would have expected the court to agree that that there were, for all practical purposes, no facilities for buying the ticket you needed. As such, the TOC should let you buy the full range of tickets on the train with no penalty fare.

Has a court actually ruled on this, or is this one of those situations where should any passenger actually hold out for their rights, the TOC backs down for fear of creating case law?

 

[glynn80]

Has this policy ever been tested in the County Court?

The conditions of carriage regarding penalty fares allow you to travel if there are no ticketing facilities in the station. If the TOC passenger charter says you should be able to buy a ticket in x minutes, and you arrive x minutes before your train and do not get to the front of the queue in time (and therefore join your train with the intention of buying on the train instead), then I would have expected the court to agree that that there were, for all practical purposes, no facilities for buying the ticket you needed. As such, the TOC should let you buy the full range of tickets on the train with no penalty fare.

Well the TOC passenger charter normally states that they have a "target" time but not that you "should be able to buy a ticket in x minutes". This seems to get around that issue.

 

[LilLoaf]

Yeah the days of just buying a ticket from a conductor on a train are disappearing fast. Why? who knows. The guards still have a ticket machine with them. Off course you could just play ignorent and say you didn't know.

 

[mumrar]

Yeah the days of just buying a ticket from a conductor on a train are disappearing fast. Why? who knows. The guards still have a ticket machine with them. Off course you could just play ignorent and say you didn't know.

Ignorance is not an excuse, would you try and walk onto a plane without a ticket? The guard has a machine for unstaffed stations, ticket excess and journey enquiries. All of these policies are regularly reviewed and have been tested in court. Don't forget even if you want to buy a ticket on board, that means you know you boarded without a valid ticket.

 

[yorkie]

The plane argument is a red herring and irrelevant.

Would you walk onto a bus without a ticket? Err, yes. And that is a more similar analogy.

Of course, it would be unwise to walk onto a bus where tickets were not for sale on board and where penalty fares operate. Exactly the case is true on trains.

But if tickets are sold on board, then there is nothing wrong with boarding a bus or a train and buying on board!

I have changed the title and part of the post, as it appeared to be asking if you can travel without a ticket, but in fact the question was whether or not you can buy on board. They are not the same thing at all! I would suggest that some members such as the OP and the Newcastle-Durham poster, think a bit more carefully about the wording of your advice requests. I've deleted 2 topics recently as I felt they could incriminate the OPs.

 

[MKB]

Well the TOC passenger charter normally states that they have a "target" time but not that you "should be able to buy a ticket in x minutes". This seems to get around that issue.

Not really. The court would have to decide what is a reasonable amount of time to allow before your journey as ticket-purchasing time. I can't imagine a court deciding this is anything greater than the target time published by the TOC.

 

[glynn80]

Not really. The court would have to decide what is a reasonable amount of time to allow before your journey as ticket-purchasing time. I can't imagine a court deciding this is anything greater than the target time published by the TOC.

Lets take a few examples.

South West Trains
We will use reasonable endeavours to make sure that you should not need to queue at a point of sale (excluding the internet or telephone bookings) for more than five minutes during times of peak demand or for more than three minutes at any other time. We monitor queues so that we can take action to reduce them where possible. We will display the times of peak demand applicable to each point of sale at a location nearby that is accessible to the public at all times.

National Express East Anglia
Our aim is to ensure that customers are served within 5 minutes at ticket offices at peak times and 3 minutes at other times. Peak times are shown on the station information poster, which is displayed at each station.

First Great Western
When purchasing a ticket from our ticket offices you should not have to queue for more than 5 minutes during peak periods, and no more than 3 minutes outside of peak periods. (Peak periods are busier periods of the day when customers are travelling to and from work, e.g. between 0700 and 0900.) Regular checks will be carried out to ensure that these standards are consistently met and any shortfall rectified.

c2c
Ticket office opening times are clearly displayed at each station together with the information on how to buy a ticket outside those hours. Our aim is to ensure that customers are served within five minutes at ticket offices at peak times and three minutes at other times.

Southeastern
We always advise you to allow sufficient time to buy your ticket, particularly if your requirements are complicated. Our aim is that, under normal circumstances, you shouldn't have to wait for more than 3 minutes before being served and no more than 5 minutes at peak times. We'll publish the peak times on a poster at each of our managed staffed stations and will also monitor queuing times. If you wish to renew a Season Ticket or make a reservation on another train operator's services, we suggest you try to avoid the busy morning and evening rush hours. This will help our staff to give you the best possible service.

Southern
Our aim is that you should never have to queue for more than five minutes to buy your ticket. Outside busy periods you should not have to wait for more than three minutes.

Arriva Trains Wales
Ticket office opening times and the times of peak demand will be clearly displayed at each staffed station, together with information on how to buy a ticket outside these hours. Sufficient staff will be employed in ticket offices so that you do not have to wait for more than five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. Ticket office opening times are also shown on the list of stations found later in this leaflet.When the ticket office is
closed tickets may be purchased on board the train.

Chiltern Railways
We’ll monitor queuing times at our ticket offices and publish the times of peak demand at the station. Our aim is that usually you shouldn’t have to wait for more than three minutes before being served, and no more than five minutes at peak times.

CrossCountry
DO NOT RUN ANY TICKET OFFICES

East Midlands Train
Our aim is to serve you within three minutes at off-peak times and five minutes at peak times. We monitor queues so we can take action to reduce them where possible. We will display the times of peak demand at the ticket office.

The majority state they will "endeavour to..." or they "aim to..." i.e. they will try to ensure you do not need to queue longer than the times specified, this however is by no means guaranteed as they are trying to work towards those times and they are not there yet.

Arriva Trains Wales on the other hand state that they "will" provide sufficient staff so to meet their target times and and First Great Western that you "should" not have to wait longer than their target times & that they "will" rectify any shortfalls. So perhaps those particular TOCs you would have more luck when confronting a ticket examiner with a passenger charter.

It seems the opinion taken by ATOC is a zero tolerance one with the following issued to ticket examiners.

Neither a queue at a ticket office nor the customer's late arrival at the station (unless a Train Company is clearly at fault) is a valid reason for a customer to board a train without having bought a ticket or paid any excess fares:

Following this the customer is charged the full single/return fare or penalty fared and any complaints directed to the Customer Service Manager of the respective TOC.

It is clearly stated in the NRCC and in Penalty Fare Areas before you enter the Compulsory Ticket Area that you cannot board a train without a valid ticket (regardless of whether there was a queue at the ticket office). A harsh system in my opinion but obviously one designed to combat fare evasion in a strong way.

 

[WillPS]

I don't really understand what's wrong with selling tickets on board. Perhaps they should make so people have to make themselves known to conductors, and if they don't then they're liable to the full anytime fare. EMT reaaally don't like selling tickets on board, and staff seem particularly harsh on the ex-Midland Mainline side.

 

[MKB]

Lets take a few examples.
It is clearly stated in the NRCC and in Penalty Fare Areas before you enter the Compulsory Ticket Area that you cannot board a train without a valid ticket (regardless of whether there was a queue at the ticket office).

The TOCs can say what they want. It's what a court says that matters, and the latter would have regard to such things as Unfair Terms. Hence my question, has this ever been tested in the County Court?

 

[glynn80]

The TOCs can say what they want. It's what a court says that matters, and the latter would have regard to such things as Unfair Terms. Hence my question, has this ever been tested in the County Court?

Perhaps you'd like to think to yourself what a court's position is, a court can only dispense justice in accordance with the rules of law.

The TOCs are not "saying what they want" they are ensuring their passengers observe the Railway Byelaws (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf)

Byelaw 17 & 18 state:

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas

(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

No where within the byelaws does it allow a traveller to enter a compulsory ticket area or a train they are intending to travel on without a ticket because there was a large queue at the ticket office, that is not a valid excuse to break these laws. It is just like if you were in a department store and were in a rush, you cannot just take goods because there is a long queue at the till and state that you will pay later, perhaps common sense will tell you that you should be allowed to do so but we all have to abide by the laws of the land and such you would be committing an offence if you did so.

So any court ruling would have no choice but to rule in favour of the TOCs due to this legislation.

You seem to be confused, thinking the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are laying down their own arbitrary rules as they wish and thus that the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts legislation would apply when in reality they are not applying terms in a contract but are ensuring we abide by the railway byelaws.