C&D parcels ... and catalogue shopping parcels

[Pigeon]

Hadn't realised the old mail order catalogues would ship parcels by rail. Did any of them have their own sidings for train access? Wasn't White Arrow the road courier for some of the catalogue companies?

For a while around the turn of the century Kays of Worcester occupied the Heenan & Froude building in Shrub Hill Road, which started off as the Worcester Engine (locomotive) Company and then became C&W works. It is right next to Shrub Hill station and was riddled with sidings, even having a connection to further industry running through/underneath it. Some of the rails are still there. One of their departments had a contract for supplying clocks and watches to the GWR.

Some time later they built a big warehouse on the old Abbey & MacLellan valve works site, on the other side of the river next to the Hereford line.

They also took over for offices the hideous "Elgar House" tower block, which sits in the forecourt of Shrub Hill station and utterly ruins what was once a rather magnificent station frontage, and is top of the list for buildings in Worcester that people want to see knocked down. They had at least one magazine advert that featured this thing, with the parcels dock of Shrub Hill visible in the background (though they didn't send parcels from there, it was just offices).

 

[Merle Haggard]

I worked in Parcels Marketing at a regional HQ until the demise of C&D necessitated (yet another) change in my railway career.

Almost all collections were from manufacturers and wholesalers. It was possible for a collection to be made from a private address, but in that case the customer would have to have an account because the van man had no means of calculating or raising the charges.

Most C&D traffic was conveyed on passenger trains, either in the working brake or in additional Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock. The costs of the rail haul were, therefore, little more that marginal and there were few avoidable costs of not doing it.

Particularly large flows were moved from their origin in parcels trains; an example from my early railway days being Mettoy's Playcraft plastic footballs from Northampton. Obviously very bulky, they were moved away in trainloads. There generally was no-where near enough N.P.C.C.S.* (see above) so recourse was made to Vanfits.

As the O.P. mentioned, a big part of the business was mail order catalogue orders. The contractual agreement was with the mail order supplier and was moved from that factory to the end customer's private address. In these cases, the contract was for the duration of the 'season' being re-negotiated each year with the new catalogue. Many of the suppliers in my 'patch' were based on a trading estate in the Valleys built I believe in the 1930's to provide employment when coal mines were closing and did not always have a good credit record. When they became insolvent and didn't settle their outstanding accounts usually a new firm sprang up, making an identical product in the same factory with the same directors...

We were in competition with the road C&D companies such as Wilkinson, Towsend and B R S Parcels and competitors' prices dictated the market. These did fluctuate because our competitors tend to fluctuate between 'buying' traffic (undercutting everyone for volume) and shedding unprofitable traffic (i.e., last year's 'bought' traffic). They also came unstuck, like us, with 'bad and doubtful' debts. No one moving parcels became rich - and hearing how many drops, and the price per package earned, by today's 'Sprinter' drivers, not much has changed.

The demise of C&D was indeed quick, a decision made above the B. R. Board. I can't remember which party was in government but a cynic might connect one party's reliance on money from Unions (a very large one being the T&G representing among others lorry drivers who then were almost all union members, a lot more of them than railwaymen) or the other's on donations from the owners of road haulage companies. Neither supported the railway in those bleak and depressing days. The Department's justification for closure was that road was 'more efficient' because we had transhipment and they didn't. That was of course nonsense - it would imply that either the trunk haul was done in 5 ton "Noddy' vans, or home deliveries made in a maximum capacity artic. Of course there was transhipment by road - it just wasn't inter-modal.

The cost savings were not great; the overheads organisations no longer received the contribution from earnings but I doubt whether, for instance, the Civil Engineers were able to reduce their expenses as a result of BSKs weighing 33 tons instead of 36.

We were instructed to forward details of all our customers, including market intelligence, to Royal Mail. And Sectorisation provided me with a new opportunity



*Scraping the barrel included S1S, the Wagon-Lits brake, and the eccentric ex L.M.S. Cream Vans (M38998-9), with the appearance of a passenger coach one side and a BG the other.

 

[Grumpy]

Where I worked at the end of the 1970s there were more trailers than tractor units.

I believe the normal planning yardstick was three trailers per tractor

Grattans in Bradford shipped out via the immediately adjacent Forster Square station I think, at least in later years.

I went round the Grattans warehouse approx 1966 and traffic was taken by vans to Forster Square.

The demise of C&D was indeed quick, a decision made above the B. R. Board.

I don't have my copy handy but I believe in Beeching's first report he identified that BR was losing money on this traffic. And also commented that he understood Royal Mail were also losing money so discussions were taking place.
If BR were still losing money 20 years later one can understand the Civil Servants losing patience. Royal Mail was of course cross-subsidising its Parcels losses from the profitable Letters business on which it had a monopoly.

 

[alistairlees]

I went round the Grattans warehouse approx 1966 and traffic was taken by vans to Forster Square.

Do you mean by road vans?

 

[Magdalia]

I worked in Parcels Marketing at a regional HQ until the demise of C&D necessitated (yet another) change in my railway career.

Almost all collections were from manufacturers and wholesalers. It was possible for a collection to be made from a private address, but in that case the customer would have to have an account because the van man had no means of calculating or raising the charges.

Most C&D traffic was conveyed on passenger trains, either in the working brake or in additional Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock. The costs of the rail haul were, therefore, little more that marginal and there were few avoidable costs of not doing it.

Particularly large flows were moved from their origin in parcels trains; an example from my early railway days being Mettoy's Playcraft plastic footballs from Northampton. Obviously very bulky, they were moved away in trainloads. There generally was no-where near enough N.P.C.C.S.* (see above) so recourse was made to Vanfits.

As the O.P. mentioned, a big part of the business was mail order catalogue orders. The contractual agreement was with the mail order supplier and was moved from that factory to the end customer's private address. In these cases, the contract was for the duration of the 'season' being re-negotiated each year with the new catalogue. Many of the suppliers in my 'patch' were based on a trading estate in the Valleys built I believe in the 1930's to provide employment when coal mines were closing and did not always have a good credit record. When they became insolvent and didn't settle their outstanding accounts usually a new firm sprang up, making an identical product in the same factory with the same directors...

We were in competition with the road C&D companies such as Wilkinson, Towsend and B R S Parcels and competitors' prices dictated the market. These did fluctuate because our competitors tend to fluctuate between 'buying' traffic (undercutting everyone for volume) and shedding unprofitable traffic (i.e., last year's 'bought' traffic). They also came unstuck, like us, with 'bad and doubtful' debts. No one moving parcels became rich - and hearing how many drops, and the price per package earned, by today's 'Sprinter' drivers, not much has changed.

The demise of C&D was indeed quick, a decision made above the B. R. Board. I can't remember which party was in government but a cynic might connect one party's reliance on money from Unions (a very large one being the T&G representing among others lorry drivers who then were almost all union members, a lot more of them than railwaymen) or the other's on donations from the owners of road haulage companies. Neither supported the railway in those bleak and depressing days. The Department's justification for closure was that road was 'more efficient' because we had transhipment and they didn't. That was of course nonsense - it would imply that either the trunk haul was done in 5 ton "Noddy' vans, or home deliveries made in a maximum capacity artic. Of course there was transhipment by road - it just wasn't inter-modal.

The cost savings were not great; the overheads organisations no longer received the contribution from earnings but I doubt whether, for instance, the Civil Engineers were able to reduce their expenses as a result of BSKs weighing 33 tons instead of 36.

We were instructed to forward details of all our customers, including market intelligence, to Royal Mail. And Sectorisation provided me with a new opportunity



*Scraping the barrel included S1S, the Wagon-Lits brake, and the eccentric ex L.M.S. Cream Vans (M38998-9), with the appearance of a passenger coach one side and a BG the other.

This is very helpful, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply.

I know a bit about how the retail end of the distribution chain worked because my grandmother was a catalogue agent. The agent came between the catalogue company and the final customer, and earned a commission on sales. The road van part of the distribution network only had to deal with the agents, not the final consumers. One surviving example of this business model is Avon Cosmetics, Avon Lady sounding more customer friendly than agent.

When I wrote my original message, I was thinking about the part of the distribution chain from the catalogue company warehouse to the agents. But it had crossed my mind that there is a link in the distribution chain from manufacturers and wholesalers to the catalogue warehouses. Are we saying that this part of the distribution chain used C+D parcels too, and that the catalogue company could arrange for deliveries direct from the manufacturer to the customer agent, using C+D parcels, without going via the catalogue warehouse at all? But I'm guessing that any returns from the agent would have to go to the catalogue warehouse.

Finally, on the availability of vans to move the traffic, I think some were converted fish vans?

 

[Gloster]

Finally, on the availability of vans to move the traffic, I think some were converted fish vans?

A quick answer. BR built over a thousand fish vans between 1955 and 1961, but the traffic collapsed in the 1960s and by around 1968 it was limited to one daily Aberdeen-Kings Cross service and some local workings in Scotland, which seem to have lasted until around 1978. Several hundred fish vans, mostly the rolling-bearing fitted ones, were converted (other than a thorough cleaning I don’t know what that involved) to parcel vans. They lasted into the mid-1970s, with the last half-a-dozen going in 1978 or 1979. I am not sure if they were used on general parcels traffic, which was how the catalogue traffic was seen, or more specific circuits.

EDIT: It is possible that quite a number did survive until 1981. Watch for a second edit once I have found the right book!

EDIT THE SECOND: It appears that 500-600 (my estimate) were converted to parcels vans and seventy or so lasted into the 1980s. They are said to have been popular with the Post Offfice as they were easy to secure.

 

[Grumpy]

Do you mean by road vans?

Apologies. I should have said road vehicles-more likely trailers than vans

 

[SargeNpton]

When I wrote my original message, I was thinking about the part of the distribution chain from the catalogue company warehouse to the agents. But it had crossed my mind that there is a link in the distribution chain from manufacturers and wholesalers to the catalogue warehouses. Are we saying that this part of the distribution chain used C+D parcels too, and that the catalogue company could arrange for deliveries direct from the manufacturer to the customer agent, using C+D parcels, without going via the catalogue warehouse at all? But I'm guessing that any returns from the agent would have to go to the catalogue warehouse.

That is correct. My first BR job in 1976 was at the Northampton parcels office and one of the regular C&D loads that a driver brought back each evening was venetian blinds from a local manufacturer. The same product would be in the catalogues of half a dozen different companies and the address label would show which company it was ordered from. So it was shipped from the manufacturer to the agent via C&D without the catalogue company physically handling it at any time.

From consignments coming into Northampton on the overnight parcels trains, which I had to prepare the van driver's delivery sheets for, it was obvious that similar manufacturer to catalogue agent flows were happening all round the country.

 

[Ken H]

This is very helpful, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply.

I know a bit about how the retail end of the distribution chain worked because my grandmother was a catalogue agent. The agent came between the catalogue company and the final customer, and earned a commission on sales. The road van part of the distribution network only had to deal with the agents, not the final consumers. One surviving example of this business model is Avon Cosmetics, Avon Lady sounding more customer friendly than agent.

When I wrote my original message, I was thinking about the part of the distribution chain from the catalogue company warehouse to the agents. But it had crossed my mind that there is a link in the distribution chain from manufacturers and wholesalers to the catalogue warehouses. Are we saying that this part of the distribution chain used C+D parcels too, and that the catalogue company could arrange for deliveries direct from the manufacturer to the customer agent, using C+D parcels, without going via the catalogue warehouse at all? But I'm guessing that any returns from the agent would have to go to the catalogue warehouse.

Finally, on the availability of vans to move the traffic, I think some were converted fish vans?

'Drop ship' is when a retailer takes a customer order and arranges to have it delivered direct by the manufacturer/importer. Saves a lot of handling. But the supplier would arrange transport, not the retailer I would think.
Must have been a massive admin effort doing that. Today the computer detects a drop ship order, and automatically generates a purchase order and sends it to the supplier electronically.

 

[6Gman]

A quick answer. BR built over a thousand fish vans between 1955 and 1961, but the traffic collapsed in the 1960s and by around 1968 it was limited to one daily Aberdeen-Kings Cross service and some local workings in Scotland, which seem to have lasted until around 1978. Several hundred fish vans, mostly the rolling-bearing fitted ones, were converted (other than a thorough cleaning I don’t know what that involved) to parcel vans. They lasted into the mid-1970s, with the last half-a-dozen going in 1978 or 1979. I am not sure if they were used on general parcels traffic, which was how the catalogue traffic was seen, or more specific circuits.

EDIT: It is possible that quite a number did survive until 1981. Watch for a second edit once I have found the right book!

EDIT THE SECOND: It appears that 500-600 (my estimate) were converted to parcels vans and seventy or so lasted into the 1980s. They are said to have been popular with the Post Offfice as they were easy to secure.

One of the last jobs for the converted fish vans if I recall correctly was Readers Digest traffic (once monthly) from the Liverpool area, which was presumably where they were printed.

They were quite often to be seen at Rugby (why?); perhaps there was a distributor based there?

 

[Gloster]

One of the last jobs for the converted fish vans if I recall correctly was Readers Digest traffic (once monthly) from the Liverpool area, which was presumably where they were printed.

They were quite often to be seen at Rugby (why?); perhaps there was a distributor based there?

I think that they were printed at Aylesbury where the works were part of Cap’n Bob’s empire (God rot him) and there was an evening parcels train from there via Claydon LNE Junction to Bletchley for onward distribution in parcels workings. It may have been their last working: a small van wasn’t a disadvantage if the load was heavy for its size, which I think Reader’s Digest is/was (it is years since I visited a dentist).

 

[Magdalia]

That is correct. My first BR job in 1976 was at the Northampton parcels office and one of the regular C&D loads that a driver brought back each evening was venetian blinds from a local manufacturer. The same product would be in the catalogues of half a dozen different companies and the address label would show which company it was ordered from. So it was shipped from the manufacturer to the agent via C&D without the catalogue company physically handling it at any time.

Thanks for that. That level of sophistication I would not have considered achievable in those simpler times!

 

[SargeNpton]

Thanks for that. That level of sophistication I would not have considered achievable in those simpler times!

That level of sophistication was par for the course in any business - just that it took an army of clerks to make it work in the days before computerisation, with much longer timescales for completion.

Forms completed in triplicate, etc.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I don't have my copy handy but I believe in Beeching's first report he identified that BR was losing money on this traffic. And also commented that he understood Royal Mail were also losing money so discussions were taking place.
If BR were still losing money 20 years later one can understand the Civil Servants losing patience. Royal Mail was of course cross-subsidising its Parcels losses from the profitable Letters business on which it had a monopoly.

In the days when every sector was part a single railway organisation there was profit and profit.

Very little avoidable cost could be ascribed to the rail transit element of Parcels when conveyance was by service train. Parcels trains obviously did incur avoidable costs but, as mentioned above TOPS code 'SPV' - ex Blue Spot fish vans, the original use of which had ceased. If not used by Parcels they would go for scrap, so the avoidable costs were very low.

However, the Government costed on the basis of Replacement Cost; using the above example, how much a newly-built SPV would cost. Similarly with locomotives - Parcels and later RfD used fully depreciated locos until the magic 10,000 hours was met and then looked for a replacement. Civil Servants would look up the cost of a new loco. when making their calculations.

And Civil Servants expected a profitability (8%, I think it was) that our road competitors would regard as luxury.

Royal Mail (not sure when that was spun out of the G.P.O.) generally used B.R. for trunk haulage. They did a limited amount of trunk haul, taking advantage of the fact that, in G.P.O. days and probably later, they were exempt from drivers hours and rest legislation. B.R. certainly wasn't (from experience...).

 

[WesternLancer]

May be of interest - some footage of parcels and catalogue business at about 14 mins in
The North Eastern Goes Forward (BTF - 1962 I think)

 

[John Webb]

May be of interest - some footage of parcels and catalogue business at about 14 mins in
The North Eastern Goes Forward (BTF - 1962 I think)

Yes - published in 1962.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes - published in 1962.

Thanks John.