Caledonian Sleeper: Should Fort William portion be prioritised over Aberdeen?

[paul1609]

Ive used the West Highland sleeper at various frequencies over 30 years which means using the Aberdeen Lounge car northbound. I like to think Im fairly sociable but Ive yet to meet another passenger actually travelling to an Aberdeen line station. I think that the business case is likely that Fort William should have the through coaches but the operational convience and scottish politics say otherwise.
I got the Aberdeen portion once to Inverkeithing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ive used the West Highland sleeper at various frequencies over 30 years which means using the Aberdeen Lounge car northbound. I like to think Im fairly sociable but Ive yet to meet another passenger actually travelling to an Aberdeen line station. I think that the business case is likely that Fort William should have the through coaches but the operational convience and scottish politics say otherwise.

My inclination is that the Aberdeen portion should be dropped entirely and the Highlander be two half-trains, one to FW and one to Inverness (maybe even considering a FW-Oban split at Crianlarich, though a connection to Oban may be easier). This is a curious reversal of fortunes from years ago, but I guess the oil workers will prefer low cost airlines. However I'd agree it's a bit political and awkward.

Aberdeen is a much shorter journey from Edinburgh than the others, and so a planned express connection could be offered from the Lowlander at Edinburgh and still arrive by around 0900-1000.

 

[paul1609]

My inclination is that the Aberdeen portion should be dropped entirely and the Highlander be two half-trains, one to FW and one to Inverness (maybe even considering a FW-Oban split at Crianlarich, though a connection to Oban may be easier). This is a curious reversal of fortunes from years ago, but I guess the oil workers will prefer low cost airlines. However I'd agree it's a bit political and awkward.

Aberdeen is a much shorter journey from Edinburgh than the others, and so a planned express connection could be offered from the Lowlander at Edinburgh and still arrive by around 0900-1000.

Im not sure if its still offered but I believe there was a road connection to Oban line stations from Crianlarich that ran on demand but mostly didn't. Nearly all travellers on the West Highland Line are tourists and they want to see the remote trainsporting stations on Rannoch Moor and to terminate at Ben Nevis.
I actually don't think the Oil Workers have ever been on the sleeper. Understandably if they are offshore for 2 or 3 weeks they prefer to spend the last night ashore in their own bed and get an early morning flight direct to Aberdeen. On my daytime trips south from Rosyth Ive often met them but I would say they are mostly based in Tyne or teeside with a few coming from the Humber area.

 

[Bill57p9]

My inclination is that the Aberdeen portion should be dropped entirely and the Highlander be two half-trains, one to FW and one to Inverness (maybe even considering a FW-Oban split at Crianlarich, though a connection to Oban may be easier). This is a curious reversal of fortunes from years ago, but I guess the oil workers will prefer low cost airlines. However I'd agree it's a bit political and awkward.

Aberdeen is a much shorter journey from Edinburgh than the others, and so a planned express connection could be offered from the Lowlander at Edinburgh and still arrive by around 0900-1000.

There is an 0602 departure from Perth to Inverurie via Aberdeen which connects off the down Highlander and literally follows the Aberdeen sleeper in. Ok, so alighting at 0545 isn't ideal but there is a potential solution for stations between Dundee and Aberdeen sat there (with through ticketing, obviously)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is an 0602 departure from Perth to Inverurie via Aberdeen which connects off the down Highlander and literally follows the Aberdeen sleeper in. Ok, so alighting at 0545 isn't ideal but there is a potential solution for stations between Dundee and Aberdeen sat there (with through ticketing, obviously)

Rather than that I'd take the Highlander to Edinburgh and change there at around 0700; a connection could be timed to work.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Ive used the West Highland sleeper at various frequencies over 30 years which means using the Aberdeen Lounge car northbound. I like to think Im fairly sociable but Ive yet to meet another passenger actually travelling to an Aberdeen line station. I think that the business case is likely that Fort William should have the through coaches but the operational convience and scottish politics say otherwise.
I got the Aberdeen portion once to Inverkeithing.

I use the Aberdeen sleeper on a semi regular basis for leisure visits back to my home town. A few people sometimes get off at Stonehaven and the odd one at Montrose, but i dont think many get off at stops before then as it arrives so early.

 

[paul1609]

Rather than that I'd take the Highlander to Edinburgh and change there at around 0700; a connection could be timed to work.

Although it often arrives earlier the Lowlanders scheduled arrival at Edinburgh is at 07.30
Even assuming you could make the 07.30 Scotrail service to Aberdeen which calls at roughly the same stops at the sleeper you'd not arrive until 10 ish.
That's probably too late if there are genuine business travellers to Aberdeen.

 

[GusB]

I actually don't think the Oil Workers have ever been on the sleeper. Understandably if they are offshore for 2 or 3 weeks they prefer to spend the last night ashore in their own bed and get an early morning flight direct to Aberdeen. On my daytime trips south from Rosyth Ive often met them but I would say they are mostly based in Tyne or teeside with a few coming from the Humber area.

Were offshore workers ever a big market for the sleeper?

From my own experience of organising early morning taxi transfers with within the Grampian area, along with actually knowing a lot of people who work offshore, many of the heliport departures are too early in the day for the sleeper to be of any use. People tended to travel during the day and stay overnight in Aberdeen the night before their flight.

I'm not as familiar with the situation now but I believe that the extravagant expenses that the offshore companies used to pay are a thing of the past, which means that the sleeper is even less likely to attract those workers. The only people that the sleeper would really appeal to are visiting bosses, and I suspect they're more likely fly up in the morning and fly back later in the day.

 

[D1537]

Were offshore workers ever a big market for the sleeper?

They certainly used to be in the 1980s, both on the ECML sleeper and the 0105 Perth-Aberdeen connection off the internal sleeper.

Obviously this was in the days before mass cheap flights.

 

[Siemens Trains]

My inclination is that the Aberdeen portion should be dropped entirely and the Highlander be two half-trains, one to FW and one to Inverness (maybe even considering a FW-Oban split at Crianlarich, though a connection to Oban may be easier). This is a curious reversal of fortunes from years ago, but I guess the oil workers will prefer low cost airlines. However I'd agree it's a bit political and awkward.

Aberdeen is a much shorter journey from Edinburgh than the others, and so a planned express connection could be offered from the Lowlander at Edinburgh and still arrive by around 0900-1000.

Would there be enough space on existing Edinburgh journeys or could an additional coach be added? Edinburgh seems the section in heaviest demand so there may not be sufficient space to include the small number of Aberdeen passengers.

I also agree that £95 subsidy per passenger sounds quite good value for the taxpayer, considering how many routes in Scotland are deemed economically viable (from what I recall ScotRail claim only Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High turns a profit). You'd think squeezing out roughly £30 per passenger in fares would be relatively easy given how often some services are booked solid. Then with some better organisation or fewer cancellations maybe the sleeper could break even.

 

[InOban]

There's long been an argument that the FW portion should leave Edinburgh before the Aberdeen. This would mean that it would run up the WHL ahead of the early Oban train, thereby providing a connection. It would also mean that the Aberdeen portion would run through Fife and Dundee at a less ungodly hour for disembarking.

 

[30907]

There's long been an argument that the FW portion should leave Edinburgh before the Aberdeen. This would mean that it would run up the WHL ahead of the early Oban train, thereby providing a connection. It would also mean that the Aberdeen portion would run through Fife and Dundee at a less ungodly hour for disembarking.

The times of the early Oban in each direction are pretty much fixed (the down train running for school traffic, the up for commuters), so the revised path would have to be about 70min earlier from Waverley to manage that, which in turn means about 40min earlier from Euston.

 

[AG1994]

A lot of offshore workers use the sleeper, getting off on the Aberdeen line stations. They’re unlikely to be socialising as it’ll be their last “good” sleep for up to a month!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

A lot of offshore workers use the sleeper, getting off on the Aberdeen line stations. They’re unlikely to be socialising as it’ll be their last “good” sleep for up to a month!

Surely offshore workers would only go to Aberdeen itself which is where the flights operate from rather than 'Aberdeen line stations'?


On the wider and interesting discussion, am I right in thinking demand to Fort William is highly seasonal, typically just two sleeping cars in winter - historically lightly loaded often in single figures but I am prepared to accept perhaps not as light now - but 4 in summer although whether Aberdeen actually requires the 3 or 4 in winter season is perhaps a bit of an an unknown.

In terms of Fort William AND Oban, splitting at Crianlarich would be a bit messy but joining would be an operational nightmare at a location without conventional signals and where the loop points are, to quote the Sectional Appendix ,'hydraulic spring-controlled points - splitting and joining sprinters is pretty straightforward, doing it with loco hauled trains is not, unless the train ran in each direction with the loco for which ever was the rear portion in the middle of the formation and it was then a simple sprinter style split/join. I feel separate trains from/to Edinburgh to/from FW and Oban would be the more realistic solution.

 

[AG1994]

Surely offshore workers would only go to Aberdeen itself which is where the flights operate from rather than 'Aberdeen line stations'?

If you’re flying out to a platform you’d probably fly to Aberdeen. If you’re joining an offshore vessel you’d be embarking at Aberdeen, Montrose or Dundee.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

If you’re flying out to a platform you’d probably fly to Aberdeen. If you’re joining an offshore vessel you’d be embarking at Aberdeen, Montrose or Dundee.

Thanks, that makes sense now with Supply Vessels operating out of all of these ports.

 

[Railsigns]

In terms of Fort William AND Oban, splitting at Crianlarich would be a bit messy but joining would be an operational nightmare at a location without conventional signals and where the loop points are, to quote the Sectional Appendix ,'hydraulic spring-controlled points - splitting and joining sprinters is pretty straightforward, doing it with loco hauled trains is not, unless the train ran in each direction with the loco for which ever was the rear portion in the middle of the formation and it was then a simple sprinter style split/join.

It would be possible, if a little convoluted, for two Up-direction (southbound) loco-hauled trains to join at Crianlarich without having to manually operate the hydro-pneumatic points at either end of the loop. Here's how:

1. The first train arrives in the Up platform and gives up its token.

2. The first train obtains a shunt token. The loco uncouples and runs round its train via the Down platform and couples onto the rear of the coaches.

3. The first train propels south onto the single line until clear of the points. It draws forward into the Down platform and returns the shunt token.

4. The second train arrives in the Up platform and gives up its token.

5. The second train obtains a shunt token and runs forwards onto the single line until clear of the points. It propels into the Down platform, and the coaches from both trains are coupled together. The second loco returns the shunt token.

6. The first loco obtains the shunt token and uncouples from the coaches of the now combined train. It runs round the train via the Up platform and couples onto the second loco. The shunt token is returned.

7. There is now a complete train sitting at the Down platform with two locos at the south end. A section token is issued and off it goes.

The above is only intended to show that it can be done. Alternatively, the joining procedure can be carried out without any running round by resorting to one manual operation of the points at the south end.

Instead of double-heading, an alternative would be to have one of the locos wait overnight at Crianlarich and take a portion of the northbound sleeper.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

As you say that does demonstrate how it could be done. No chance of the signaller getting bored with all the token activity!

 

[Wynd]

No. Absolutely not.

Aberdeen is remote enough as it is, we don't need to be reinforcing that any more than is already the case.

If the service is under-utilised the the business model needs tweaking to ensure patronage.

There is more than enough demand between Aberdeen and London, and in between, for this service to not only survive but thrive.

Then there is the whole premise. Ft bill is a small town, Aberdeen is Scotland's third city, they aren't exactly comparable.

 

[30907]

No. Absolutely not.

Aberdeen is remote enough as it is, we don't need to be reinforcing that any more than is already the case.

If the service is under-utilised the the business model needs tweaking to ensure patronage.

Not sure anyone is saying that - just that demand is now (at times?) higher for Ft Wm.

There is more than enough demand between Aberdeen and London, and in between, for this service to not only survive but thrive.

Then there is the whole premise. Ft bill is a small town, Aberdeen is Scotland's third city, they aren't exactly comparable.

Aberdeen has half-a-dozen daytime services to/from England (not to mention flights, I believe) and Ft Wm none, which may account for the good performance of the sleeper.

 

[Wynd]

I sincerely hope we are not attempting to compare Aberdeen with Ft William. Aberdeen has those services because its a significant city with significant industrial activity to support those services.

 

[Starmill]

If the service is under-utilised the the business model needs tweaking to ensure patronage.

The main way to improve the economics through growth would be to increase the ratio of seats to beds, for example by replacing the lounge car with a buffet and more standard seating, or increasing the number of berths by removing the doubles. It's also unclear why the seating they've gone for is so uncomfortable for a full night's journey despite there being only a tiny amount of it.

However it's rather too late for worrying about any of that now because the rolling stock is pretty fixed. Therefore they're essentially stuck with the laughably low capacity sets, and as such they need to charge the megabucks for them while trying to pretend they are a luxury brand.

 

[30907]

I sincerely hope we are not attempting to compare Aberdeen with Ft William. Aberdeen has those services because its a significant city with significant industrial activity to support those services.

No, I am only comparing the loadings of the two sleeper services.
Part of the reason demand from/to Aberdeen is relatively low (and has been for a considerable time AIUI) will be the presence of through daytime services. It is also a couple of hours nearer England than Ft Wm, which also shifts the balance night/day.

 

[lachlan]

No, I am only comparing the loadings of the two sleeper services.
Part of the reason demand from/to Aberdeen is relatively low (and has been for a considerable time AIUI) will be the presence of through daytime services. It is also a couple of hours nearer England than Ft Wm, which also shifts the balance night/day.

Is the demand for the Aberdeen leg low? That hasn't been the case in my (admittedly limited) experience

 

[Bartsimho]

No, I am only comparing the loadings of the two sleeper services.
Part of the reason demand from/to Aberdeen is relatively low (and has been for a considerable time AIUI) will be the presence of through daytime services. It is also a couple of hours nearer England than Ft Wm, which also shifts the balance night/day.

Could a Carlisle to Fort William service which doesn't stop anywhere work? I know it's single track for a lot of the route and the WHL is slow but I would estimate about 4 hours for the journey. It would also act as a faster service to Glasgow. Probably only popular in the Summer though if you make some stops for walkers at places like Corrour. Class 755's would probably be the best class with the Electrification of Helensburgh-Carlisle

 

[Railsigns]

Could a Carlisle to Fort William service which doesn't stop anywhere work?

There are several places en route where it would have to stop to exchange RETB tokens, just like every other train does.

 

[Wynd]

Is the demand for the Aberdeen leg low? That hasn't been the case in my (admittedly limited) experience

Likewise. I don't think the loadings are low.

 

[trainbow]

I did EUS - FTW last night, and it indeed didn't feel very busy when checking in for any of the portions. Just popped back to Morrisons at FTW and noticed there were four carriages stabled so indeed that's two sleepers (presumably one PRM), one club car and one seated.

That's 7 x Classic, 6 x Club and 3 x Double, I believe. Lounge car had 5 of us in dining last night on departure from Euston, compared to the summer when it's usually 100% full.

My argument certainly wouldn't be to axe the Aberdeen portion. However I would (though I am biased) suggest that moving the through coaches to Fort William may be sensible given its tourist market. If anything, this is just to ensure that bicycle reservations can be made without getting up at 2AM to move your bikes. Fort William is one of the main mountain biking areas in the country, regularly hosting stages of the UCI Mountain Biking World Cup. One good things is that Scotrail will be adding a 156 'Highland Explorer' to the early Mallaig train once a bit of work has been done on some platform iirc.

I would be interested to see what peak loadings are like on each of the sections in the Summer. Do the lowlander sections actually fill up? I guess once it goes to Transport Scotland (as I'm sure we're all expecting it to), those figures would be subject to FOI?

I'll ask the staff on my return to London what the loading is like for those curious (bearing in mind it's February, I imagine the lowest demand month).

 

[Wynd]

The MTB market is developing in Aberdeenshire, there have been significant investments made in recent years. No, its not yet at Nevis level, but there will be competitions in the shire in the not too distant future.

If loadings are low, in any section, then the marketing and ticketing needs adjusting.

There could be an argument about allocating any unsold seats up to and on the day in some kind of open market, to try and tempt travellers on.

It is self evidently the case that seats don't fill because of prices, and it makes zero sense to transport thin air when you could get a seat sold for £20/30/£40 on a once off basis.

 

[zwk500]

It is self evidently the case that seats don't fill because of prices, and it makes zero sense to transport thin air when you could get a seat sold for £20/30/£40 on a once off basis.

Although it similarly makes zero sense to transport anything at all if you're having to reduce a seat already subsidised to the tune of ~£100 by £40/50 to sell it.

I highly doubt that the net spend of the people in Seats generates £150 of tax take for the Scottish govt, or even gets particularly close to a net spend of £150 in the scottish economy. It may be more economically effective to subsidise hotel rooms in the Highlands by £50/night.