Caledonian Sleeper

[paul1609]

Interesting to see discussions of price of previous page. I am starting a job soon that will entail me spending a few days in Glasgow every so often, travelling from London. A berth price of £125 or even £150 is competitive with that of day train+hotel (and I would do it over that), but much beyond that and it is hard to justify.

As always it depends where you live and where your destination is but its very unusual for rail to be able to compete with early flight up, late flight back to be honest.

 

[Butts]

How many people would prefer a return to the ramshackle day's of 1st's Regime?

At least you could get a £19 Bargain Berth and it wasn't trying to pretend to be something it was not !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many people would prefer a return to the ramshackle day's of 1st's Regime?

At least you could get a £19 Bargain Berth and it wasn't trying to pretend to be something it was not !!

I never thought removing it from ScotRail really made any sense. Just like separating TPE from the rest of Northern didn't; that was a political decision to have "wheat" and "chaff" in separate franchises.

 

[MrEd]

How many people would prefer a return to the ramshackle day's of 1st's Regime?

At least you could get a £19 Bargain Berth and it wasn't trying to pretend to be something it was not !!

That is very true, and perhaps a business model which might work better in a post-Covid world.

 

[williamn]

As always it depends where you live and where your destination is but its very unusual for rail to be able to compete with early flight up, late flight back to be honest.

Will be from central London to central Glasgow. I think even with the day train a flight would only offer an hour to 90 minutes time advantage, given travel to LHR or LGW, check in etc. I'd also far rather sleep on a train, get up and go into work than get up at 5am and travel to an airport. But - it depends on the price. Almost no price will drive (ho ho) me to start flying to Glasgow twice a month though.

 

[route101]

Generally I prefer taking the sleeper down but flight/evening train back up to Glasgow. Train vs Plane times matter where you start and end your journey.

What kind of work are you doing in Glasgow?

 

[MrEd]

I never thought removing it from ScotRail really made any sense. Just like separating TPE from the rest of Northern didn't; that was a political decision to have "wheat" and "chaff" in separate franchises.

You are absolutely spot on. If I had my way I would make it part of Scotrail again- it would be interesting to see how Abellio ran it if they had the opportunity. I doubt they’d use the same business model as First Group (as their approach to Scotrail has been quite different from First’s) but they would have been more conservative, I think, and not sought to make the sleeper out to be something it’s not. Also, the sleeper could have made use of existing Scotrail crew, e.g. the Perth and Fort William conductors, so might have been more economical to crew. They would also have made it much easier to use the seated coach as a day service between Kingussie and Inverness and Edinburgh and Fort William, something which Serco has no interest in (and only does out of compulsion).

 

[williamn]

Generally I prefer taking the sleeper down but flight/evening train back up to Glasgow. Train vs Plane times matter where you start and end your journey.

What kind of work are you doing in Glasgow?

Yes it could also be that way around - though I'll be in a hotel in Glasgow so day train up adds a hotel night, which is the point of taking the sleeper for me - London is home base. I work in music, so mostly office work, with some evenings, so when there's a show (post covid...) a sleeper back to London after could work well.

 

[paul1609]

Will be from central London to central Glasgow. I think even with the day train a flight would only offer an hour to 90 minutes time advantage, given travel to LHR or LGW, check in etc. I'd also far rather sleep on a train, get up and go into work than get up at 5am and travel to an airport. But - it depends on the price. Almost no price will drive (ho ho) me to start flying to Glasgow twice a month though.

You'll soon get the hang of it I'm sure but unfortunately the train doesnt quite live up to its hype;
If your going out of London in the morning and back in the evening the just over 4 hours train doesnt really exist because a lot of extra stops are made.
Theres some afternoon trips from Glasgow that are actually London Euston via Birmingham and its quicker to change at Crewe and wait 20 mins for a direct service but the journey time is actually well over 5 hours.
If your flying to Glasgow dont use LHR OR LGW go to Stansted or London City. Much quicker flight times and much easier to pass through.
A lot of rails advantages actually rely on being able to afford walk up tickets and these arent competitive with a flight booked 2 weeks in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theres some afternoon trips from Glasgow that are actually London Euston via Birmingham and its quicker to change at Crewe and wait 20 mins for a direct service but the journey time is actually well over 5 hours.

That isn't currently running due to COVID, but it's all day, two-hourly (two-hourly to Edinburgh, alternating with it) and it isn't intended for through journeys though Advances can be cheap so if you're not in a hurry it may be attractive. There's an hourly through service via the Trent Valley that is much quicker and is the one you would use for speed.

 

[cactustwirly]

You'll soon get the hang of it I'm sure but unfortunately the train doesnt quite live up to its hype;
If your going out of London in the morning and back in the evening the just over 4 hours train doesnt really exist because a lot of extra stops are made.
Theres some afternoon trips from Glasgow that are actually London Euston via Birmingham and its quicker to change at Crewe and wait 20 mins for a direct service but the journey time is actually well over 5 hours.
If your flying to Glasgow dont use LHR OR LGW go to Stansted or London City. Much quicker flight times and much easier to pass through.
A lot of rails advantages actually rely on being able to afford walk up tickets and these arent competitive with a flight booked 2 weeks in advance.

Don't use Stansted, it's ages away from central London. It's also severely overcrowded in normal times.
The best Airport to use is LHR.
London City is just as far as LGW in terms of travel time, as its only served by the DLR which is slow.

 

[MrEd]

As I'm moving to Aberdeenshire next month and the sleeper is a planned move for business trips to London, I hope it comes back!

It will do in the medium term, I think, but I’m not sure when that will be. CS’ website suggests that they will be reviewing the service provision on 10th February and deciding whether it’s worth reinstating any of the other portions (alongside Inverness and Edinburgh); this will be in response to government advice. There’s no point reinstating any of the other portions (as I see it) until travel restrictions ease, as they would carry so few passengers and CS are already transporting fresh air for hundreds of miles each night as it is. I hope it does to help you- but I wouldn’t bank on the Aberdeen portion coming back in February.

You’ll have to change onto the sleeper at either Perth or Edinburgh initially I’m afraid. I’m fairly sure the Aberdeen section will come back later in the year.

 

[Essexman]

Regarding using the sleeper to Glasgow for work; I usually have meetings near East Kilbride and Paisley and arrive for 9.30 start (by train and sometimes taxi) having had a shower and breakfast in Glasgow. The sleeper gives time for a full day of meetings, an evening in Glasgow and back into work about 10am next morning. Occasionally I hire a car from close to Central Station. It’s ideal for me.

If I only had morning meetings I used to get a day train back via Edinburgh and enjoy lunch in the restaurant car. Now I make the most of the time and travel somewhere once the meeting has finished (Brodick, Troon, Dunoon, Rothesay for example – even Corrour once) and get the sleeper back from Glasgow, or I go on somewhere and take the Highlander back (often Pitlochry, also Inverness, Aberdeen, Stonehaven, Bridge of Orchy).

So whether purely for business or combining business and the pleasure of exploring Scotland by train, I find the sleeper to be a brilliant way to travel.

 

[47271]

Yes it could also be that way around - though I'll be in a hotel in Glasgow so day train up adds a hotel night, which is the point of taking the sleeper for me - London is home base. I work in music, so mostly office work, with some evenings, so when there's a show (post covid...) a sleeper back to London after could work well.

There's a Highlander regular who I know a bit who's an executive in the theatre industry, although haven't seen for a while for obvious reasons.

He has regular evening commitments in London, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and uses the Lowlander to get to the other end of the country immediately following a show. It works very well for him he says so long as he's in a taxi at the venue by 11pm. It depends on how late you expect to be, but the sleeper does give you the ability to be at a desk at the other end of the country first thing, which you certainly couldn't do with a plane without leaving the hotel at some ridiculous hour.

He uses a Flexipass (ideal for mixing Highlander and Lowlander trips) which is coming in at just over £1600 for ten single journeys at the moment, and you still get Club for that. How long the free upgrade will last for when everything picks up again is anyone's guess, but it might be worth looking at.

 

[92002]

There's a Highlander regular who I know a bit who's an executive in the theatre industry, although haven't seen for a while for obvious reasons.

He has regular evening commitments in London, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and uses the Lowlander to get to the other end of the country immediately following a show. It works very well for him he says so long as he's in a taxi at the venue by 11pm. It depends on how late you expect to be, but the sleeper does give you the ability to be at a desk at the other end of the country first thing, which you certainly couldn't do with a plane without leaving the hotel at some ridiculous hour.

He uses a Flexipass (ideal for mixing Highlander and Lowlander trips) which is coming in at just over £1600 for ten single journeys at the moment, and you still get Club for that. How long the free upgrade will last for when everything picks up again is anyone's guess, but it might be worth looking at.

The reverse of the London based sleeper use is Kirsty Wark who travels on a daytime Pendolino to London, does Newsnight and returns on the Lowland sleeper to Glasgow.

Not currently as simple as that just now. Since the service before lockdown was only the Edinburgh portion was running on the Lowlander. Glasgow passengers were put on the earlier Highlander Fort William portion.

 

[theironroad]

The reverse of the London based sleeper use is Kirsty Wark who travels on a daytime Pendolino to London, does Newsnight and returns on the Lowland sleeper to Glasgow.

Not currently as simple as that just now. Since the service before lockdown was only the Edinburgh portion was running on the Lowlander. Glasgow passengers were put on the earlier Highlander Fort William portion.

I remember reading a while back that she has a mad dash from the newsnight studio to Euston.

Don't imagine it's a trip she does every night otherwise she would only get a few hours in Glasgow each morning before having to head back south on a day train.

 

[SlideintomyTMs]

I bumped into an ex colleague who worked the Highlander returning to London on the 31st and said there were only 3 people on board Southbound, I don’t know the northbound figures exactly, which would probably have been more interesting, but by all accounts they were very low as well

 

[92002]

I remember reading a while back that she has a mad dash from the newsnight studio to Euston.

Don't imagine it's a trip she does every night otherwise she would only get a few hours in Glasgow each morning before having to head back south on a day train.

It's not far in a taxi.

If there were a number of days back to back the time would be taken in a hotel.

There is a BBC Scotland programme on Glasgow Central now on more 4 where part of it includes the trip.

 

[MrEd]

I bumped into an ex colleague who worked the Highlander returning to London on the 31st and said there were only 3 people on board Southbound, I don’t know the northbound figures exactly, which would probably have been more interesting, but by all accounts they were very low as well

I believe they were probably similar. I think that for as long as most of the UK is under tier/level 4 restrictions, the sleeper will have more hosts on board than passengers. You will probably be able to count the number of passengers on board on one hand until March.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

It will do in the medium term, I think, but I’m not sure when that will be. CS’ website suggests that they will be reviewing the service provision on 10th February and deciding whether it’s worth reinstating any of the other portions (alongside Inverness and Edinburgh); this will be in response to government advice. There’s no point reinstating any of the other portions (as I see it) until travel restrictions ease, as they would carry so few passengers and CS are already transporting fresh air for hundreds of miles each night as it is. I hope it does to help you- but I wouldn’t bank on the Aberdeen portion coming back in February.

You’ll have to change onto the sleeper at either Perth or Edinburgh initially I’m afraid. I’m fairly sure the Aberdeen section will come back later in the year.

Thanks for the positive response! As for not in February thats ok - like most of the rest of the world I am doing very little business travel at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe they were probably similar. I think that for as long as most of the UK is under tier/level 4 restrictions, the sleeper will have more hosts on board than passengers. You will probably be able to count the number of passengers on board on one hand until March.

I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about during lockdown, because it's just like all the rest of the emergency spending - you can spend it on running trains with the staff, or you can put them on furlough and the Government pays that, or you can lay them off and then the Government has to pay them Universal Credit. Might as well have them productive even if it's a bit more expensive, to be honest.

The actual civil service isn't allowed to furlough for that sort of reason.

What's important is how quickly it bounces back, which will at least in part relate to how well CS markets things. The summer (primarily domestic) tourism market this year may well be quite telling.

 

[Siemens Trains]

you can spend it on running trains with the staff, or you can put them on furlough and the Government pays that, or you can lay them off and then the Government has to pay them Universal Credit. Might as well have them productive even if it's a bit more expensive, to be honest.

That's a fair point. Also, a lot of people complained that the new stock was introduced with basic flaws that could have been identified through test runs, experience or staff training. Maybe this is an opportunity to get some practice (subject to any covid safety constraints) when the number of passengers is virtually zero.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a fair point. Also, a lot of people complained that the new stock was introduced with basic flaws that could have been identified through test runs, experience or staff training. Maybe this is an opportunity to get some practice (subject to any covid safety constraints) when the number of passengers is virtually zero.

I would certainly agree with that - a good chance for some "snagging" work.

 

[paul1609]

Don't use Stansted, it's ages away from central London. It's also severely overcrowded in normal times.
The best Airport to use is LHR.
London City is just as far as LGW in terms of travel time, as its only served by the DLR which is slow.

Stansted is within 1 hr 30 mins of any Central London Victoria tube station (via Tottenham Hale) and 50 mins from Liverpool St for the City.
The extra time on the train is more than compensated by the quicker transit through the terminal and the shorter real flight time to Glasgow.
Southbound its a really quick exit via domestic arrivals to the train. It can be busy worth investing in Priority security if you want to save 10 mins.
London City is 21 mins (10 stops) on DLR from Bank or under 30 mins from any Central London Jubilee Line station changing to DLR at Canning Town.

 

[cactustwirly]

Stansted is within 1 hr 30 mins of any Central London Victoria tube station (via Tottenham Hale) and 50 mins from Liverpool St for the City.
The extra time on the train is more than compensated by the quicker transit through the terminal and the shorter real flight time to Glasgow.
Southbound its a really quick exit via domestic arrivals to the train. It can be busy worth investing in Priority security if you want to save 10 mins.
London City is 21 mins (10 stops) on DLR from Bank or under 30 mins from any Central London Jubilee Line station changing to DLR at Canning Town.

Where are you getting the shorter transit time through Stansted from??
LGW is much quicker, as you don't have to wait for the train from the Gates, and BA flights to LHR should use A gates so you shouldn't need to use the train.

Plus the flights into LHR and LGW use airbridges (unless you are very unlucky) whereas the airbridges at STN are are hardly used (steps and a cold walk into the terminal)

 

[Bald Rick]

The reverse of the London based sleeper use is Kirsty Wark who travels on a daytime Pendolino to London, does Newsnight and returns on the Lowland sleeper to Glasgow.

But surely not for more than 1 consecutive day?

 

[berneyarms]

But surely not for more than 1 consecutive day?

In a normal week, Kirsty presents one edition of Newsnight.

She’d obviously stay in London if doing more than that.

 

[paul1609]

Where are you getting the shorter transit time through Stansted from??
LGW is much quicker, as you don't have to wait for the train from the Gates, and BA flights to LHR should use A gates so you shouldn't need to use the train.

Plus the flights into LHR and LGW use airbridges (unless you are very unlucky) whereas the airbridges at STN are are hardly used (steps and a cold walk into the terminal)

Stansted domestic is much much quicker than LGW or LHR. All domestic flights depart and arrive from gates 80-89.
Departing that's about 400 yards from the end of the departures lounge up a ramp and turn right.
Arriving its along the same pier turn right and down a corridor alongside the edge of the terminal building. turn left and down some stairs on to the platform.
Train to Plane its about about a quarter of the length of the walk at Gatwick South terminal. The transit/ train is for international flights.
Yes they don't use airbridges but that's not a big thing for me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Stansted domestic is much much quicker than LGW or LHR. All domestic flights depart and arrive from gates 80-89.
Departing that's about 400 yards from the end of the departures lounge up a ramp and turn right.
Arriving its along the same pier turn right and down a corridor alongside the edge of the terminal building. turn left and down some stairs on to the platform.
Train to Plane its about about a quarter of the length of the walk at Gatwick South terminal. The transit/ train is for international flights.
Yes they don't use airbridges but that's not a big thing for me.

Luton will be quicker when the transit opens (hopefully soon!). 30 mins from St Pancras to Security. Security to plane can’t be more than 5 minutes or so.

 

[sannox]

Plus the flights into LHR and LGW use airbridges (unless you are very unlucky) whereas the airbridges at STN are are hardly used (steps and a cold walk into the terminal)

I've consistently ended up requiring bussed on BA arriving at Gatwick in morning from Scotland. Easyjet to be fair that is very rare.

If I fly I often prefer Gatwick for ease and rail options in getting to Central London.