Caledonian Sleeper

[Deafdoggie]

I do find the sleeper great for early arrival into London. Rarely fly to London early in the morning. BA to and from London is very expensive now for when I want to fly. Train on the WCML is my go to option.

Early is the key word. Sleeper hosts can't wait to turf you off as soon as the train arrives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Early is the key word. Sleeper hosts can't wait to turf you off as soon as the train arrives.

Yes, that is an issue and needs resolving, either by making the staff do their jobs properly for the full time they are contracted to do so, or changing the publicity so it makes it clear you must get off on arrival.

 

[35B]

The solution to this is for inconsiderate fools to stop organising 9am meetings for people who are travelling a long way. 10 or 10:30am is just fine, and has the advantage of the organiser having time to get in, have a coffee and prepare the room and meeting materials so the visitor's time is properly respected by everything being ready for their arrival rather than them showing up at 9 half asleep and then a load of faffing about ensuing. If you can't lose that hour, then either arrange for the visitor to have an overnight stay so they are awake for the work, or order in lunch and have a working lunch with a buffet to regain the time that way.

Not only is doing this contemptuous of the visitor, but it also means they won't be working at their optimum because they'll be tired, either because of a very early start or because of "sleeping" on the Sleeper, which for most people is never quite as good as a proper bed.

At the moment from Edinburgh it's an 0540 train for that, but if HS2 takes that to 0600 ish that's getting almost civilised and definitely preferable to me than the Sleeper (and no doubt way cheaper, too). 5 hours kip in a proper bed is way better for me than 7 fitful hours of sort-of-sleep.

Inconsiderate fools are all over, and will never disappear. My pet peeves are (pre-Covid) working in Newcastle and having colleagues book meetings 1st thing in Telford (other equally random seeming pairs are available), and calls with colleagues in India being booked late in the (British) day - both manageable, but totally discourteous to those who need to attend. And when these are internal meetings and diaries can be checked, it's inexcusable.

However, when I'm asked to travel long distance (>90 minutes) 1st thing, I insist on doing it my way and not getting up at sparrow-fart to be there from home. I've rarely had pushback on this, and even that has gone away when I've explained my reasoning.

 

[Berliner]

I find the talk of HS2 killing the sleeper a bit strange. People will always have a choice. Just like today you have a choice to take a slow stopping train or an express intercity train, or. Plane, or a bus.

Many people may prefer to travel overnight on a slower journey with their own room, for example, rather than join the HS2 half way into the journey, or more if coming from northern Scotland. HS2 won't even come to Scotland, so I just find the argument very confusing.

 

[CW2]

I find the talk of HS2 killing the sleeper a bit strange. People will always have a choice. Just like today you have a choice to take a slow stopping train or an express intercity train, or. Plane, or a bus.

Many people may prefer to travel overnight on a slower journey with their own room, for example, rather than join the HS2 half way into the journey, or more if coming from northern Scotland. HS2 won't even come to Scotland, so I just find the argument very confusing.

I think it is more a case of economics than one of individual preferences.
The sleepers are resource intensive, and require substantial subsidy. If a proportion of their current clientele decide to use teh faster daytime trains promised by HS2, then either the subsidy for the sleepers has to go up or they get shut down as an economic basket case. A middle road might be to preserve some form of limited, dated operation aimed mainly at (rich) tourists, and without public subsidy.

 

[Ianno87]

I think it is more a case of economics than one of individual preferences.
The sleepers are resource intensive, and require substantial subsidy. If a proportion of their current clientele decide to use teh faster daytime trains promised by HS2, then either the subsidy for the sleepers has to go up or they get shut down as an economic basket case. A middle road might be to preserve some form of limited, dated operation aimed mainly at (rich) tourists, and without public subsidy.

Or reduce to one nightly train only. Operationally easiest would be a single train, splitting at Edinburgh - some carriages staying there (and pax alighting later in the morning), one or two portions carrying on northwards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or reduce to one nightly train only. Operationally easiest would be a single train, splitting at Edinburgh - some carriages staying there (and pax alighting later in the morning), one or two portions carrying on northwards.

Edinburgh, Inverness and FW are the obvious set, I guess. Wouldn't need a lounge at Edinburgh as they could go to a bricks and mortar cafe for breakfast.

 

[Ianno87]

Edinburgh, Inverness and FW are the obvious set, I guess. Wouldn't need a lounge at Edinburgh as they could go to a bricks and mortar cafe for breakfast.

Also doesn't necessarily need to be the same operation all year round; e.g. FW could run weekends/summer only, as demand dictates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also doesn't necessarily need to be the same operation all year round; e.g. FW could run weekends/summer only, as demand dictates.

Yes, very true. I suspect the highest demand for that is Friday night (north) and Sunday night (south), or Monday on bank holidays. On winter Tuesdays I'd imagine it's nearly empty.

There might also be a case for adding Saturdays (but removing some other nights) on FW.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I find the talk of HS2 killing the sleeper a bit strange. People will always have a choice. Just like today you have a choice to take a slow stopping train or an express intercity train, or. Plane, or a bus.

Many people may prefer to travel overnight on a slower journey with their own room, for example, rather than join the HS2 half way into the journey, or more if coming from northern Scotland. HS2 won't even come to Scotland, so I just find the argument very confusing.

Whilst HS2 itself may not reach Scotland, trains can use it to speed North from London before moving to the conventional route. This will shorten journeys and make office hours day trips to Edinburgh & Glasgow much easier.
As already pointed out, the sleeper is massively subsided already, loosing just a few passengers could tip it into needing more subsidy that politicians aren't willing to fund any longer.
Striking now doesn't help the case for retaining it either. People find other modes, find it's not too bad/cheaper and stick with it. Again, if enough people do, the subsidy becomes too much to politically bear.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, very true. I suspect the highest demand for that is Friday night (north) and Sunday night (south), or Monday on bank holidays. On winter Tuesdays I'd imagine it's nearly empty.

There might also be a case for adding Saturdays (but removing some other nights) on FW.

I do wonder how much untapped demand there is on Saturday nights, and whether, with the same resources, it would be generally more revenue-generational than a midweek night (noting engineering access impacts on Saturday nights/Sunday morning).

I do worry the sleeper is just a bit stuck in "lets just keep doing what BR did"; the resurgence of sleepers in Europe appears to be the likes of OBB re-looking at the network with a blank sheet of paper, rather that then just perpetuating legacy operations.

Whilst HS2 itself may not reach Scotland, trains can use it to speed North from London before moving to the conventional route. This will shorten journeys and make office hours day trips to Edinburgh & Glasgow much easier.
As already pointed out, the sleeper is massively subsided already, loosing just a few passengers could tip it into needing more subsidy that politicians aren't willing to fund any longer.
Striking now doesn't help the case for retaining it either. People find other modes, find it's not too bad/cheaper and stick with it. Again, if enough people do, the subsidy becomes too much to politically bear.

With HS2 services to Scotland, you can leave Euston later than today (by around 30 minutes or so) and get to Glasgow at the same time. For early morning services, that makes a good number of "Home Counties" connections to make the first morning trains from Euston much more practical than today (where the first train today, reaching Glasgow at 1036, is a very bleary-eyed start even from Euston).

 

[paul1609]

End to

Yes, very true. I suspect the highest demand for that is Friday night (north) and Sunday night (south), or Monday on bank holidays. On winter Tuesdays I'd imagine it's nearly empty.

There might also be a case for adding Saturdays (but removing some other nights) on FW.

My experience is that the Fort William loads very well all week whilst the journey north of Crianlarich is in day light, plus anytime there are school holidays plus Thursday and Friday nights northbound and Sunday night south. There are obviously mid week days in November when its lightly loaded but if you have to hire the staff and vehicles for the peak periods which are more than 6 months of the year there probably isn't that much of a saving in running selective dates in the winter (as opposed to varying the length of the train which is already done). In my opinion the point has been passed where the through seats and lounge car on a commercial basis should go to FW rather than Aberdeen and I assume that the only reason they don't is operational (train legths etc).

 

[philosopher]

I do wonder how much untapped demand there is on Saturday nights, and whether, with the same resources, it would be generally more revenue-generational than a midweek night (noting engineering access impacts on Saturday nights/Sunday morning).

Is the sleeper not running on Saturday nights due to it previously being considered that there was enough demand on Saturday nights or is it due to engineering works?

If it is the former, given the sleeper’s market is now shifting to tourists rather than business travellers, perhaps that needs to be reassessed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the sleeper not running on Saturday nights due to it previously being considered that there was enough demand on Saturday nights or is it due to engineering works?

Mostly the former.

I do wonder how much untapped demand there is on Saturday nights

Very little. You only have to look at the quantity of London - Scotland flights for the 24 hours from lunchtime on a Saturday compared to every other day of the week to assess that. (And also the rail ticket data, but of course very few people have access to that).

 

[JonathanH]

Very little. You only have to look at the quantity of London - Scotland flights for the 24 hours from lunchtime on a Saturday compared to every other day of the week to assess that. (And also the rail ticket data, but of course very few people have access to that).

Although the supply of such flights for London - Scotland travel can be limited in the Saturday afternoon / Sunday morning period, the prices aren't always as low as they are at other times so to some extent there is both a lack of supply and demand. Presumably the relevant planes are used elsewhere at those times.

(That is not an argument for the sleeper to run on Saturday nights.)

 

[Iskra]

Yes, that is an issue and needs resolving, either by making the staff do their jobs properly for the full time they are contracted to do so, or changing the publicity so it makes it clear you must get off on arrival.

I agree, this isn't acceptable service for the prices charged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, this isn't acceptable service for the prices charged.

It isn't acceptable if it was free. Under no circumstances other than an emergency should what happens differ from the timetable, as that is the basis of the contract.

If they can't agree with staff not to kick people off on arrival, the timetable should say you must alight on arrival (which is how the European ones are).

 

[island]

Although the supply of such flights for London - Scotland travel can be limited in the Saturday afternoon / Sunday morning period, the prices aren't always as low as they are at other times so to some extent there is both a lack of supply and demand. Presumably the relevant planes are used elsewhere at those times.

BA and especially CityFlyer used to run the planes on bucket & spade routes during the weekend period, not least because LCY is closed from lunchtime Saturday to lunchtime Sunday.

 

[xotGD]

Is the sleeper not running on Saturday nights due to it previously being considered that there was enough demand on Saturday nights or is it due to engineering works?

If it is the former, given the sleeper’s market is now shifting to tourists rather than business travellers, perhaps that needs to be reassessed.

Overnights used to operate on a Saturday night. Often resulting in some entertaining diversions, electric locos being dragged by diesels, pilot locos, etc.

All too much hassle for today's railway - better just to offer no service.

 

[Ianno87]

Mostly the former.




Very little. You only have to look at the quantity of London - Scotland flights for the 24 hours from lunchtime on a Saturday compared to every other day of the week to assess that. (And also the rail ticket data, but of course very few people have access to that).

Good point. Saturday late night "dead time" can be one of the best times to snap up bargain flights.

 

[JonathanH]

Overnights used to operate on a Saturday night. Often resulting in some entertaining diversions, electric locos being dragged by diesels, pilot locos, etc.

All too much hassle for today's railway - better just to offer no service.

All of that sounds expensive.

When we have threads which are talking about axing loads of train services, making staff redundant, limiting increases in pay for a long time and every penny of subsidy coming under scrutiny, adding new costs to the railway is not the way to go. It literally is better to offer no service and concentrate the residual railway on what will attract the most custom at the least cost.

 

[Bald Rick]

Overnights used to operate on a Saturday night. Often resulting in some entertaining diversions, electric locos being dragged by diesels, pilot locos, etc.

All too much hassle for today's railway - better just to offer no service.

Whilst the hassle was a factor, the main reason was that they had few passengers. When I was on the sleeper team I regularly heard about Saturday night sleepers with no one in a berth. Little to no postal traffic Sat night either.

 

[Iskra]

Whilst the hassle was a factor, the main reason was that they had few passengers. When I was on the sleeper team I regularly heard about Saturday night sleepers with no one in a berth. Little to no postal traffic Sat night either.

When I was a student I worked on motorway service stations on the Northern M6- Saturday after 5pm was dead, Fridays and Sundays heaving. Most people are where they want to be on a Saturday evening. Like others have said, it’s a good night for cheap travel fares.

Regarding diversions, CS are quite good at diverting to Kings Cross when required, I ended up there once.

 

[Grumpy]

It seems barmy to me that we are spending billions(?) to , essentially, provide more platforms at Euston whilst the two sleeper trains conveying 70 passengers or so take up two platforms for the greater part of the morning peak

 

[Iskra]

It seems barmy to me that we are spending billions(?) to , essentially, provide more platforms at Euston whilst the two sleeper trains conveying 70 passengers or so take up two platforms for the greater part of the morning peak

That’s a bit of an exaggeration, they aren’t there that long and there are still plenty of platforms available for local and IC services. I think the additional platforms might have something to do with HS2 too...

And what alternative are you suggesting? Sleeper passengers to walk from Watford?

 

[Falcon1200]

An Embraer E 190 trumps any form of Rail Travel available in the UK today.

That is a matter of opinion, most on here would probably not agree !

 

[alistairlees]

It seems barmy to me that we are spending billions(?) to , essentially, provide more platforms at Euston whilst the two sleeper trains conveying 70 passengers or so take up two platforms for the greater part of the morning peak

Max capacity on each is around 250 (though this isn't really reached, as it requires all rooms to be booked as a twin)

 

[Bald Rick]

It seems barmy to me that we are spending billions(?) to , essentially, provide more platforms at Euston whilst the two sleeper trains conveying 70 passengers or so take up two platforms for the greater part of the morning peak

How many platforms do they occupy in the evening peak, when Euston is similarly at capacity (in normal times)?

 

[Grumpy]

That’s a bit of an exaggeration, they aren’t there that long and there are still plenty of platforms available for local and IC services. I think the additional platforms might have something to do with HS2 too...

And what alternative are you suggesting? Sleeper passengers to walk from Watford?

Well the first train arrives approx 0630 and occupies platform 1 till approx 0930. That cant be dismissed as "aren't there that long". The other train arrives approx 0745 and occupies platform 15 till approx 0845 (when the train loco leaves). That's pretty much bang at the height of the peak.
If there are "plenty of platforms available" then why spend billions providing more for HS2?
I am suggesting that this service is a political vanity project and an economic basket case and should be withdrawn in order to free up space at Euston so that the scope of the rebuilding can be reduced and money saved

 

[alistairlees]

How many platforms do they occupy in the evening peak, when Euston is similarly at capacity (in normal times)?

None.