Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

Would being a female have been an advantage in those days as you would almost have been guaranteed a berth to yourself ?

If Serco are achieving capacity is there not a market for a couple of overnight all 1st Class Carriage HST services to at least Glasgow and Edinburgh ?

The seated coach is of a First Class layout (well, 80x First Class, not HST First Class), so if you want that you can already opt for it. It isn't that popular - only a half-coach per destination. If it was more popular they'd have put more of it on, as with a higher density of passengers they'd make more money out of it than berths. (Berths aren't cheap, but the mark-up is nothing like it is on an aircraft).

 

[BRX]

I don't think you understand just how unpopular sharing was. Many people wouldn't use the sleeper at all because of it. The market research was absolutely overwhelming. Pretty much no-one was willing to share any more.

The only reason you'd avoid a sleeper with shared cabins would be if you thought that you might end up sharing when you didn't want or intend to. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. It's like saying that people who want to travel to Inverness would avoid it because it also stops at Aviemore.

 

[Butts]

The seated coach is of a First Class layout (well, 80x First Class, not HST First Class), so if you want that you can already opt for it. It isn't that popular - only a half-coach per destination. If it was more popular they'd have put more of it on, as with a higher density of passengers they'd make more money out of it than berths. (Berths aren't cheap, but the mark-up is nothing like it is on an aircraft).

Does that mean you can often stretch out across a row if it is lightly populated ?

 

[Journeyman]

The only reason you'd avoid a sleeper with shared cabins would be if you thought that you might end up sharing when you didn't want or intend to. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. It's like saying that people who want to travel to Inverness would avoid it because it also stops at Aviemore.

Nobody wanted to share!

 

[Falcon1200]

The only reason you'd avoid a sleeper with shared cabins would be if you thought that you might end up sharing when you didn't want or intend to. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. It's like saying that people who want to travel to Inverness would avoid it because it also stops at Aviemore.

If travelling alone you would have no control over who else was booked into your compartment. Spending a night (hopefully) comatose, partially unclothed, in a small enclosed space with a complete stranger is rather different to a train stopping at stations other than your destination. Like others, I would not now travel by sleeper, ever, if it meant enforced sharing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that mean you can often stretch out across a row if it is lightly populated ?

The actual coach tends to be fairly well-populated (though usually not 100% full), but that's because there isn't much capacity.

If you want to do that try the Night Riviera (which has far more seats than passengers, to the extent that in normal times it's walk up with no reservation required), though the guard might wake you up when they want to pass.

 

[Butts]

If travelling alone you would have no control over who else was booked into your compartment. Spending a night (hopefully) comatose, partially unclothed, in a small enclosed space with a complete stranger is rather different to a train stopping at stations other than your destination. Like others, I would not now travel by sleeper, ever, if it meant enforced sharing.

No one said anything about enforced sharing it was voluntary and a bit of a gamble.

Have you ever been in the Forces ? - There are a lot worse places to doss down believe me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No one said anything about enforced sharing it was voluntary and a bit of a gamble.

I think the issue was that a rather higher fare was the only way to avoid it.

Have you ever been in the Forces ? - There are a lot worse places to doss down believe me.

I don't think that is really a valid comparison with a premium (allegedly) hotel train service.

 

[Davester50]

The unpredictable nature of it was pretty grim.

I had to request a different cabin years ago, when the occupant was absolutely reeking of body odour. There was no-way I was sharing with them.

Would being a female have been an advantage in those days as you would almost have been guaranteed a berth to yourself ?

There was a right stooshie with regards to Self ID.
The Scotsman:Mumsnet battle Churchill's grandson over Caledonian Sleeper transgender policy

The end of sharing has also got CS out of that minefield.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The end of sharing has also got CS out of that minefield.

That is one of those "liberal paradox" issues where if you take a stance you can't avoid upsetting/discriminating against someone. Yes, indeed much easier not to take a stance on it for any business.

 

[Highlandspring]

The world is divided into people who don't see an issue with sharing a room with a stranger and those, like me, who would find it absolutely horrendous; I'd never even consider staying in a youth hostel for the same reason, the idea makes my blood run cold and I know I wouldn't manage a single moment of sleep. I'm sure people who were brought up in households where they shared a room with siblings, or perhaps attended a boarding school or were in the military have a completely different outlook and it would be impossible to convey to them how horrible the forced intimacy of trying to sleep in a small space with a complete stranger can be for those who are hung up about it. I struggle to sleep just hearing snoring from the other side of the cabin wall!

 

[Davester50]

That is one of those "liberal paradox" issues where if you take a stance you can't avoid upsetting/discriminating against someone. Yes, indeed much easier not to take a stance on it for any business.

Absolutely. It's good reason berth sharing will never be back in the UK at least.
The fact the storage isn't as good is another good reason.

I had no issues in my younger days, but as I'm getting older, I appreciate my own space.
My company will still pay for the sleeper, which was great when the kids were young, avoiding nights away, but these days I'll take the day train and a hotel, which often works out cheaper.

 

[Butts]

Absolutely. It's good reason berth sharing will never be back in the UK at least.
The fact the storage isn't as good is another good reason.

I had no issues in my younger days, but as I'm getting older, I appreciate my own space.
My company will still pay for the sleeper, which was great when the kids were young, avoiding nights away, but these days I'll take the day train and a hotel, which often works out cheaper.

Why don't you fly down, you could do it as a Daytrip then ?

 

[Davester50]

Why don't you fly down, you could do it as a Daytrip then ?

The majority of London trips, I'll take the train, as I prefer to work on the train for a bit. I do like the flights in to London City though.
For not London, I'll fly if I can, although this is all pre-March 2020. Who knows what the new future brings.

 

[D6130]

The world is divided into people who don't see an issue with sharing a room with a stranger and those, like me, who would find it absolutely horrendous; I'd never even consider staying in a youth hostel for the same reason, the idea makes my blood run cold and I know I wouldn't manage a single moment of sleep. I'm sure people who were brought up in households where they shared a room with siblings, or perhaps attended a boarding school or were in the military have a completely different outlook and it would be impossible to convey to them how horrible the forced intimacy of trying to sleep in a small space with a complete stranger can be for those who are hung up about it. I struggle to sleep just hearing snoring from the other side of the cabin wall!

I have never shared a sleeping berth with anyone other than my wife, but I have in the past shared couchettes on the continent with complete strangers, although the idea no longer appeals to me as I've got older. It's a shame that the newly-revamped French overnight services only feature couchette accommodation. Ironically, my most horrendous sleeper journey in this country was my one and only trip in a, then new, mark 3 sleeper from Euston to Glasgow in the Summer of 1983. I was told by the steward on boarding that I would have the cabin to myself for the entire journey (hooray!), but what neither he nor I could have foreseen was the fact that the woman in the adjacent cabin - through the wall next to my bed - was evidently a very heavy smoker and as soon as she lay down in her bed she commenced an all-night session of heavy and continuous bronchial coughing spasms. Having reached Carlisle without a wink of sleep, I was tempted to ask the attendant to call for an ambulance, as at one point I thought she was dying. On arrival at Glasgow Central (via the G&SW) the first thing she did on stepping onto the platform was to light a cigarette and give me a broad smile. Grrrrrr!

 

[route101]

The issue for me was you were sharing with one person. I've been in a couchette in Europe and shared with 3 other strangers. That is not as bad. I used to stay in hostels all the time when I was younger. I appreciate my space now.

I think sharing happens on overnight cabins on boats too.

 

[Butts]

I have never shared a sleeping berth with anyone other than my wife, but I have in the past shared couchettes on the continent with complete strangers, although the idea no longer appeals to me as I've got older. It's a shame that the newly-revamped French overnight services only feature couchette accommodation. Ironically, my most horrendous sleeper journey in this country was my one and only trip in a, then new, mark 3 sleeper from Euston to Glasgow in the Summer of 1983. I was told by the steward on boarding that I would have the cabin to myself for the entire journey (hooray!), but what neither he nor I could have foreseen was the fact that the woman in the adjacent cabin - through the wall next to my bed - was evidently a very heavy smoker and as soon as she lay down in her bed she commenced an all-night session of heavy and continuous bronchial coughing spasms. Having reached Carlisle without a wink of sleep, I was tempted to ask the attendant to call for an ambulance, as at one point I thought she was dying. On arrival at Glasgow Central (via the G&SW) the first thing she did on stepping onto the platform was to light a cigarette and give me a broad smile. Grrrrrr!

1983 - Couldn't you still smoke in the Cabins then ?

The issue for me was you were sharing with one person. I've been in a couchette in Europe and shared with 3 other strangers. That is not as bad. I used to stay in hostels all the time when I was younger. I appreciate my space now.

I think sharing happens on overnight cabins on boats too.

You can get single rooms in Hostels at least in Geneva from my experience.

Obviously sailors are less fussy than land lubbers

 

[Journeyman]

There was a right stooshie with regards to Self ID.
The Scotsman:Mumsnet battle Churchill's grandson over Caledonian Sleeper transgender policy

The end of sharing has also got CS out of that minefield.

The decision to end sharing had already been made by then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The world is divided into people who don't see an issue with sharing a room with a stranger and those, like me, who would find it absolutely horrendous; I'd never even consider staying in a youth hostel for the same reason, the idea makes my blood run cold and I know I wouldn't manage a single moment of sleep.

I'm actually fine with hostels. The thing i just don't like is sharing with one other person I don't know - it's far too intimate. If I had to share I'd pick the seats, but I'd far rather they had done an open couchette option of some kind.

My company will still pay for the sleeper, which was great when the kids were young, avoiding nights away, but these days I'll take the day train and a hotel, which often works out cheaper.

I would tend to choose day trains simply because I can't sleep on a moving vehicle, which is no good for work.

 

[D6130]

1983 - Couldn't you still smoke in the Cabins then ?

No, IIRC the mark 3 sleepers were non-smoking from new....and possibly smoking may have been banned in mark 1 sleepers following the 1978 Taunton fire - even though that was not actually the cause of the fire. However, as always, I am open to correction from those more knowledgeable than me.

 

[Berliner]

Nobody wanted to share!

It is funny that it is frowned upon in the UK. I have taken sleepers in various European countries and been right along the TransSiberian and shared with strangers every single time. No one batted an eyelid and there was plenty of single females, young adults, elderly etc. A real mixed bag. Come to the UK and i's utterly dismissed, by the locals at least. I am sure a few foreign backpackers on a budget wouldn't mind at all if they were given the option.

 

[Davester50]

I shared in my twenties and didn't think anything of it then, but by the time i resumed trips on the sleeper in my mid fifties i was no longer interested in sharing with a stranger.

I was OK with sharing when I was younger, but there’s absolutely no way I'd tolerate it now, and most other people wouldn't either.

I had no issues in my younger days, but as I'm getting older, I appreciate my own space.

That is not as bad. I used to stay in hostels all the time when I was younger. I appreciate my space now.

Very much an age thing, appreciating your own space!

The decision to end sharing had already been made by then.

On the new stock, most definitely, the report and comment from CS says that. The end to sharing was brought in on the old stock though.

 

[Butts]

No, IIRC the mark 3 sleepers were non-smoking from new....and possibly smoking may have been banned in mark 1 sleepers following the 1978 Taunton fire - even though that was not actually the cause of the fire. However, as always, I am open to correction from those more knowledgeable than me.

Surely you could smoke in the Lounge though ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is funny that it is frowned upon in the UK. I have taken sleepers in various European countries and been right along the TransSiberian and shared with strangers every single time. No one batted an eyelid and there was plenty of single females, young adults, elderly etc. A real mixed bag. Come to the UK and i's utterly dismissed, by the locals at least. I am sure a few foreign backpackers on a budget wouldn't mind at all if they were given the option.

I might take the option of sharing a couchette area with 3 or 5 others, where the culture is that you sleep clothed.

I am not willing to share with one other unless I know them.

Same with a hostel - happy in a dorm, wouldn't be happy to share a twin.

 

[Davester50]

It is funny that it is frowned upon in the UK. I have taken sleepers in various European countries and been right along the TransSiberian and shared with strangers every single time. No one batted an eyelid and there was plenty of single females, young adults, elderly etc. A real mixed bag. Come to the UK and i's utterly dismissed, by the locals at least. I am sure a few foreign backpackers on a budget wouldn't mind at all if they were given the option.

Any time I travelled overnight abroad, only in Western Europe, the couchettes were mixed, the sleepers were single sex.

 

[Journeyman]

The issue for me was you were sharing with one person. I've been in a couchette in Europe and shared with 3 other strangers. That is not as bad. I used to stay in hostels all the time when I was younger. I appreciate my space now.

Yeah, likewise. I'd far rather have as much control over my space and privacy as possible. It's the unpredictability of sharing that makes me uncomfortable.

That said, I'm a regular user of bothies, which are massively unpredictable, and are completely unregulated and quite lawless spaces. However, I've never had a bad experience in one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any time I travelled overnight abroad, only in Western Europe, the couchettes were mixed, the sleepers were single sex.

Couchettes are basically just one up from compartment seating and the understanding is that you sleep clothed (and things like blankets are very thin accordingly). So it's comparable with sleeping in a seated coach but a bit more comfortable.

 

[Journeyman]

Surely you could smoke in the Lounge though ?

The last place you could on trains in the UK.

 

[Davester50]

Couchettes are basically just one up from compartment seating and the understanding is that you sleep clothed (and things like blankets are very thin accordingly). So it's comparable with sleeping in a seated coach but a bit more comfortable.

Exactly. Which is what the budget traveller has as an option.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think sharing happens on overnight cabins on boats too.

Serco Northlink does it the opposite way round from what the sleeper used to do, in that you can choose to pay a discounted cabin rate for a berth in a shared cabin (two, three or four berths in one cabin) with other people who have elected to share. Otherwise the default is that you're paying for sole use of a cabin or sharing with other members of your party, but you can pay more to upgrade to a very slightly more 'luxurious' cabin including extras such as a window, lounge access with meals/drinks and newspapers etc...

Since March last year Northlink has suspended cabin sharing outwith households/bubbles though you can still book a sleeping pod (for obscure covid reasons the public showers are not available)