Caledonian Sleeper

[tornado]

I am fairly good at filtering out reviews from people that just want to have a moan. Quite a few mentioned that "the driver was driving like a madman", and "it felt like a rollercoaster" which is a fair point.

Is there a technical reason, beyond using more electricity, why the Lowlander couldn't travel a more indirect route to London and thus go at a slower pace? I understand the 7am arrival at Euston is so that some customers can catch morning flights from Heathrow, but surely if they set off at say 10pm on a longer route, the speed could be dropped?

 

[Sm5]

I am fairly good at filtering out reviews from people that just want to have a moan. Quite a few mentioned that "the driver was driving like a madman", and "it felt like a rollercoaster" which is a fair point.

Is there a technical reason, beyond using more electricity, why the Lowlander couldn't travel a more indirect route to London and thus go at a slower pace? I understand the 7am arrival at Euston is so that some customers can catch morning flights from Heathrow, but surely if they set off at say 10pm on a longer route, the speed could be dropped?

Or just stop enroute.

I favour earlier boarding, it can still leave & run in the same path as now, just allow people a longer period of time to “check in”, get settled, eat, do email, do what you want to do etc.

if you could board the lowlander at 8pm, you can still bed down and have an early night if you wanted, ultimately you dont care what time it actually departs, once your onboard.

I know it blocks a platform for longer, but i’m sure that can be worked around, no station is “that” busy. The extra staffing of the onboard lounge could be revenue positive from earnings, increase “room service” catering and other staffing hours costs recovered from not needing to rent & staff a waiting lounge at the departure station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or just stop enroute.

That to be fair works for the Night Riviera - it stops at Reading and Taunton for about an hour each to waste time.

I favour earlier boarding, it can still leave & run in the same path as now, just allow people a longer period of time to “check in”, get settled.

That's probably better as it means people can board late if they want, e.g. if they've been to see a show or something.

I am fairly good at filtering out reviews from people that just want to have a moan. Quite a few mentioned that "the driver was driving like a madman", and "it felt like a rollercoaster" which is a fair point.

I've generally found that lying down makes it feel much more like that, even though if seated it would feel quite sedate.

Is there a technical reason, beyond using more electricity, why the Lowlander couldn't travel a more indirect route to London and thus go at a slower pace? I understand the 7am arrival at Euston is so that some customers can catch morning flights from Heathrow, but surely if they set off at say 10pm on a longer route, the speed could be dropped?

It would be genuinely useful for one or other (or both) to run via Birmingham so people could board there - that would open up a significant extra market. There will I suppose be days when a diversion would be needed, but you could always bus people to a Trent Valley station if needed.

Platform length is I guess the main issue and could preclude using New St as it might foul the station throat when stopped (would it?), but you could I guess use SDO at International with the back end hanging off and not foul anything that mattered at that time of night?

 

[6Z09]

I am fairly good at filtering out reviews from people that just want to have a moan. Quite a few mentioned that "the driver was driving like a madman", and "it felt like a rollercoaster" which is a fair point.

Is there a technical reason, beyond using more electricity, why the Lowlander couldn't travel a more indirect route to London and thus go at a slower pace? I understand the 7am arrival at Euston is so that some customers can catch morning flights from Heathrow, but surely if they set off at say 10pm on a longer route, the speed could be dropped?

Driving like a madman, felt like a rollercoaster are both stupid comments from people that are totally uniformed on the capabilities of Class 92 locomotives!
90s could catch up a fair bit of time within their speed range, 92s can't.

 

[Sm5]

suppose be days when a diversion would be needed, but you could always bus people to a Trent Valley station if needed.

that’s what earns the 1 star reviews.
The bus is a hated entity in the middle of the night.

I think they make a rod for their own backs here.. rather than trying to deliver something that wont be satisfactory when engineering works are known, they should just mark it as “sold out” from that location. Tickets are sold as a “room” rather than point to point to point destinations anyway…no Brum stop simply means more tickets from elsewhere, for the same room capacity & revenue.

 

[JonathanH]

That to be fair works for the Night Riviera - it stops at Reading and Taunton for about an hour each to waste time.

The Reading stop was only extended to allow for the locomotive detachment / attachment.

Taunton doesn't have a dwell.

It 'wastes time' at Exeter and Plymouth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

that’s what earns the 1 star reviews.
The bus is a hated entity in the middle of the night.

I think they make a rod for their own backs here.. rather than trying to deliver something that wont be satisfactory when engineering works are known, they should just mark it as “sold out” from that location. Tickets are sold as a “room” rather than point to point to point destinations anyway…no Brum stop simply means more tickets from elsewhere, for the same room capacity & revenue.

Yes, true, on nights with planned engineering works they could simply not sell tickets from Brum, which they don't for e.g. Crewe if it goes up the ECML.

The Reading stop was only extended to allow for the locomotive detachment / attachment.

Oh, does it drag the loco that took it into Paddington to Reading and detach it there? Didn't realise that.

Taunton doesn't have a dwell.

It 'wastes time' at Exeter and Plymouth.

To be fair I was half asleep so must have forgotten. But either way there are deliberate stops to waste time.

 

[Deafdoggie]

the internet is full of angry, malicious, self-entitled, ventrific anonymous people.
That gives them a voice for 1 star reviews, voting for BoatyMcBoatface and Brexit, politics etc.

Where as those who have no complaints or issues tend not to leave feedback and continue their daily lives.

I treat all such reviews with suspicion, many are just “critical issues to 1 person” but tend to be “qualitative” source material for the negative news Media.

Admittedly, if you were travelling from Aberdeen last week, you might have a gripe, as there wasn't a train most of the week..

When reading those reviews, it should be considered those who are just ranting, and those with genuine complaint.

My thoughts on improvement is really about management / resourcing.. its not being exploited to its commercial best, at the same time its under resourced… one is a by product of the other… if this was a Marriott/GBRF venture rather than a Serco/GBRF venture I suspect much would change very quickly.

i’d give the sleeper an 8/10 from my experience, but admittedly I too have not left a tripadvisor review with 4 stars, perhaps I should… it would be a pity if the naysayers damaged this product… it is pretty good imho… it’d be nice if TPE bought some lounge cars for their services too…there is a potentially nice day product there too.

Driving like a madman, felt like a rollercoaster are both stupid comments from people that are totally uniformed on the capabilities of Class 92 locomotives!
90s could catch up a fair bit of time within their speed range, 92s can't.

A lot of CS customers aren't rail enthusiasts, they won't know, or care, what locomotive it is. They care about the smoothness of the ride for the price they paid.

Whilst there will always be 1star reviews, you have to take the average reviewer. If a company has mostly 5star reviews, it's likely to be good, if they 1 star reviews outnumber the 5, then it's likely to be less so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst there will always be 1star reviews, you have to take the average reviewer. If a company has mostly 5star reviews, it's likely to be good, if they 1 star reviews outnumber the 5, then it's likely to be less so.

I find it's usually worth actually reading the low-star ratings on anything with that sort of rating system, from Tripadvisor to Ebay. Sometimes they are just picky people being picky about a load of different minor things or annoyed at not getting what they unreasonably wanted (e.g. expecting silver service at a Travelodge). But equally sometimes they will mostly comment on the same issue, which tends to mean it is an issue, just one that doesn't bother everyone, so then you can make a decision based on if it would bother you or not.

 

[CaptainBen]

Driving like a madman, felt like a rollercoaster are both stupid comments from people that are totally uniformed on the capabilities of Class 92 locomotives!
90s could catch up a fair bit of time within their speed range, 92s can't.

Or possibly they are objective comments from passengers/customers/guests who are simply giving their opinions on the service as delivered. Most of such people neither know, nor care, what loco is on the front of the train, they just want to get to their destination on time and in comfort because that's the service they're paying for.

 

[6Z09]

Or possibly they are objective comments from passengers/customers/guests who are simply giving their opinions on the service as delivered. Most of such people neither know, nor care, what loco is on the front of the train, they just want to get to their destination on time and in comfort because that's the service they're paying for.

The point being the locomotives used dont have the ability to go more than 7mph over the recommended sleeper train top speed ,which already is lower than line speed, so driving like a madman is not an option for any driver even if he wished to do so.

 

[tornado]

But "driving like a madman" is in comparison to their expectation of how a sleeper train should feel. If 80mph causes a lot of sharp motion then the train should go at 60mph. Nothing to do with the progammed speed.

 

[6Z09]

But "driving like a madman" is in comparison to their expectation of how a sleeper train should feel. If 80mph causes a lot of sharp motion then the train should go at 60mph. Nothing to do with the progammed speed.

Nothing to do with programmed speed ???, what an astonishing statement!
Trains are running to a timetable, not like a bus if there is a few potholes they slow down!!
Perhaps it's expectations that need adjusting, not the operation of the trains.
Anyone expecting the Orient Express is rather deluded.
If quality of sleep is a high priority, perhaps a stationary bed would be more suitable rather than a moving one!

 

[Deafdoggie]

Nothing to do with programmed speed ???, what an astonishing statement!
Trains are running to a timetable, not like a bus if there is a few potholes they slow down!!
Perhaps it's expectations that need adjusting, not the operation of the trains.
Anyone expecting the Orient Express is rather deluded.
If quality of sleep is a high priority, perhaps a stationary bed would be more suitable rather than a moving one!

Then CS should adjust their marketing and prices. If you promise & charge top service, people will expect top service. Reviews are also based on people's expectations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then CS should adjust their marketing and prices. If you promise & charge top service, people will expect top service. Reviews are also based on people's expectations.

They still seem to be filling it at those prices, which would rather suggest they should not in fact change them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They still seem to be filling it at those prices, which would rather suggest they should not in fact change them.

Absolutely, but I meant if 6Z09 felt people should not complain about the service not being up to scratch, then CS shouldn't promise a service it's not delivering.

 

[6Z09]

Absolutely, but I meant if 6Z09 felt people should not complain about the service not being up to scratch, then CS shouldn't promise a service it's not delivering.

My comments were in response to the thoughts that if the ride was rough at 80mph the train should reduce to 60mph.A ridiculous statement in my opinion. For most people on time arrival is preferable over a good sleep.
In no way do I think people should not complain! Over recent months there has been all too often very real grounds for complaint.
However the marketing is, and has been, since the introduction of the new coaches, pretty much undeliverable.

 

[Deafdoggie]

For most people on time arrival is preferable over a good sleep.

You do know it's called a SLEEPER?
Also, timetables can be changed & if customers are requesting it, should be looked at

 

[6Z09]

You do know it's called a SLEEPER?
Also, timetables can be changed & if customers are requesting it, should be looked at

Changing the timetable for the sake of a longer sleep is very unlikely, not many places on the WCML to have a lie over enroute, platform space at Waverley means a long lie there is not going to happen, north of Edinburgh times impact with the first day trains, southbound it's unlikely that a stopover is viable either.
What proposals could you suggest for these passengers that are more interested in a long lie than getting there?
Advertised times to vacate berths are also not achievable on the Lowlander at Waverley, so to prevent complaints these times should be changed to what is achievable.

 

[The Planner]

You do know it's called a SLEEPER?
Also, timetables can be changed & if customers are requesting it, should be looked at

Wouldn't fancy trying to get the Highlander down the WCML at 60mph in the morning peak. That is one hell of a back timing exercise.

 

[adrock1976]

Changing the timetable for the sake of a longer sleep is very unlikely, not many places on the WCML to have a lie over enroute, platform space at Waverley means a long lie there is not going to happen, north of Edinburgh times impact with the first day trains, southbound it's unlikely that a stopover is viable either.
What proposals could you suggest for these passengers that are more interested in a long lie than getting there?
Advertised times to vacate berths are also not achievable on the Lowlander at Waverley, so to prevent complaints these times should be changed to what is achievable.

The only places I can think of from the top of my head regarding the places where there could be a layover (assuming present day route via ex Trent Valley Railway) at a stretch would be Warrington Bank Quay (can easily pull over to one side, but unlikely as Preston back northbound is not too far away), Stafford (there are already through lines there), Rugeley TV to Nuneaton inclusive (this section is quad track), Northampton (unsure if trains from the depot can pass a train that is in the London platform - I think the northbound platforms are an island), and maybe as a last resort Milton Keynes Central (there are six platforms, and I believe overtaking moves are allowed). This comes with the caveat that I have not looked at the Sectional Appendix, nor have I had a look at the Real Time Trains website to get an feeling for how much traffic there is at those hours of the day.

All in all, my view is that the Caledonian Sleeper would most likely be post-HS2 for any major revisions to service. I have mentioned a long time ago (unsure if this thread or another one) that the Highlander section be revised to run to Inverness and Fort William as one portion running via Birmingham, with the respective portions uncoupling/coupling at Mossend Yard. Inverness portion would continue via the ex Caledonian calling Coatbridge Central, Cumbernauld (Carbrain - suffix appended if the proposed station near Abronhill opens, no change of three letter code CUB), Larbert (compensate for Falkirk Grahamston, as Larbert is a couple of miles round the corner), Stirling, then as existing present day calls. The Fort William portion would then call Coatbridge Central, Glasgow Queen Street low level* Westerton*, Dalmuir, then as present day calls.

*As there are a myriad of routes from Mossend Yard, alternatives on the way to Dalmuir during engineering works could be Springburn (interchange with Queen Street via Bellgrove or direct via Cowlairs), then Western and as above, or via Glasgow Central high level, then via the ex Rutherglen & Coatbridge via the top side of the right pointing triangle at Langloan Junction, then either Queen Street low level or Springburn to Western, then as normal. Also, if the stock fits the tunnels, there is Central low level, then onwards to Westerton/Dalmuir.

 

[Caleb2010]

If you’re wanting a later arrival at the end of the journey- there’s plenty of places the sleeper can stop for an hour, and frequently does (albeit unplanned!)

The problem comes when attempting to run it with everything else using the same lines!

Once the sleeper is late - it impacts on other services, either passing other services on single lines or threading it between augmented peak hour services on already well used lines!

Timetabling it to run later would throw up the same problems, it may not be as easy as people think!

 

[Sm5]

I dont think arriving later is a good solution…

it ”deboards” today around 7-8am, for anyone going to work in central london, glasgow or edinburgh thats about spot on. For leisure travellers, they probably have less of an Agenda. For Air travellers, the time either works or it doesnt, whatever time of day it arrives.

if anything arriving earlier, allow people off at will and having a “check out” time is more convienient.

Its the boarding time that I think offers both increased flexibilty, and catering revenue potential.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The only places I can think of from the top of my head regarding the places where there could be a layover would be Warrington Bank Quay, Stafford , Rugeley TV to Nuneaton inclusive, Northampton Milton Keynes Central

Laying over in a station is not ideal, as there is more likely to be noise from station activities or the local urban environment.(If I wake up in the middle of the night on a sleeper it's almost always when the train is at a station - although admittedly it used to be worse when sleepers also carried mail and newspapers for intermediate stations, and your slumbers were disturbed by the merry clatter of BRUTEs coming and going, and postmen and newsagents chatting whilst going about their business). Better to stop out in the country somewhere, (preferably where there are multiple tracks so the sleeper can be overtaken)

 

[trainbow]

Last night’s Highlander picked up 56 minutes delay outside Lockerbie, 10 mins outside Dalmuir, 20 mins at Helensborough, 15 minutes to Crianlarich and another 20 mins to Fort William, arriving 134L Was only 54L leaving Edinburgh after splitting.

Anyone know what happened? Friend’s first time on CS, arrived so late At least he’ll get 100% delay repay!

 

[Bill57p9]

Last night’s Highlander picked up 56 minutes delay outside Lockerbie, 10 mins outside Dalmuir, 20 mins at Helensborough, 15 minutes to Crianlarich and another 20 mins to Fort William, arriving 134L Was only 54L leaving Edinburgh after splitting.

Anyone know what happened? Friend’s first time on CS, arrived so late At least he’ll get 100% delay repay!

I don't know what the delay around Lockerbie was, though this morning's down Highlander appears to be repeating this performance.
The rest of the FTW delay was down to pathing: Behind 2E51 Airdrie to Balloch stopper around Dalmuir, then waiting for southbound trains to clear the single West Highland Line:
1Y20 at Helensburgh (timetabled to pass at Garelochhead), 1Y42 at Crianlarich (should be Rannoch) and finally 1Y44 at Spean Bridge (shouldn't need to pass).

Just goes to show the impact of missing the path.

 

[alangla]

Spotted this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1456383755396976644?s=21

SLEEP EASY
Your carbon footprint will be lighter if you take Caledonian Sleeper instead of flying.
Join our journey to Net Zero.

and a link to the ScotRail website.

CalSleeper is tagged in the post, but other than that it’s a purely ScotRail based message. Seems a bit odd given they’re separate operations.

 

[6Z09]

I don't know what the delay around Lockerbie was, though this morning's down Highlander appears to be repeating this performance.
The rest of the FTW delay was down to pathing: Behind 2E51 Airdrie to Balloch stopper around Dalmuir, then waiting for southbound trains to clear the single West Highland Line:
1Y20 at Helensburgh (timetabled to pass at Garelochhead), 1Y42 at Crianlarich (should be Rannoch) and finally 1Y44 at Spean Bridge (shouldn't need to pass).

Just goes to show the impact of missing the path.

Must have been a crew change at Lockerbie, looks like the trains have been waiting on one another, same this morning.

 

[John Bishop]

Last night’s Highlander picked up 56 minutes delay outside Lockerbie, 10 mins outside Dalmuir, 20 mins at Helensborough, 15 minutes to Crianlarich and another 20 mins to Fort William, arriving 134L Was only 54L leaving Edinburgh after splitting.

Anyone know what happened? Friend’s first time on CS, arrived so late At least he’ll get 100% delay repay!

Delays at Edinburgh on southbound due staff shortages which had knock on to northbound service.

 

[Roast Veg]

Spotted this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1456383755396976644?s=21

and a link to the ScotRail website.

CalSleeper is tagged in the post, but other than that it’s a purely ScotRail based message. Seems a bit odd given they’re separate operations.

It is rather in ScotRail's interest for more people to visit scotland by rail - why should any operator not be supporting another anyway? It's one industry after all...