Caledonian Sleeper

[_toommm_]

Hi all,

I'll be travelling for the first time in a bed on the Sleeper on Friday night from Fort Bill, as I don't think I can hack a night in the seats again. I'm currently booked in room 02, so will that be over the bogies (as I've heard bad things about being over the bogies). Also, and I know this is ultimately subjective, but do people actually manage to get good sleep? And I presume I'm last on the pecking order for the Club Car as I'm in a 'Classic Solo' room?

Thanks in advance

 

[Bill57p9]

Will they still use the Class 92 via Cumbernauld?

I assume so. There is a regular class 92 light engine move as 0C16 via that route (e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C38702/2022-12-04/detailed)

 

[trebor79]

I'll be travelling for the first time in a bed on the Sleeper on Friday night from Fort Bill, as I don't think I can hack a night in the seats again. I'm currently booked in room 02, so will that be over the bogies (as I've heard bad things about being over the bogies). Also, and I know this is ultimately subjective, but do people actually manage to get good sleep? And I presume I'm last on the pecking order for the Club Car as I'm in a 'Classic Solo' room?

Usually I can only get a decent sleep on a sleeper train if I've been on a sleeper train the night before and am therefore utterly exhausted. That goes for any sleeper train, not just Caledonian.

It's a million times better than the old continental sleeping cars with the windows that open towards the floor that I used from Tangiers to Marrakech. Hot, humid, ridiculously noisy and to top it off I was sharing with a Morrocan couple who were on their honeymoon. The young lady was in tears. I went and asked the attendant (dressed in a decades old SNCF uniform) to try and move me somewhere else but apparently nothing available.
Awkward.

The bed on the Cally is really quite comfortable and I sleep better on it than I do on most other sleeper trains.

 

[RGM654]

I only really understand the need for a lounge when alighting. The sleeper boards so early (usually) that I’ve never had need of one pre-train.

A lounge is welcome if you can't be sure how long your journey to the departure station will take, so you allow plenty of time and then have to hang about before you can board. A lounge would be welcome at Edinburgh where boarding officially starts pretty late and often only shortly before departure.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hi all,

I'll be travelling for the first time in a bed on the Sleeper on Friday night from Fort Bill, as I don't think I can hack a night in the seats again. I'm currently booked in room 02, so will that be over the bogies (as I've heard bad things about being over the bogies). Also, and I know this is ultimately subjective, but do people actually manage to get good sleep? And I presume I'm last on the pecking order for the Club Car as I'm in a 'Classic Solo' room?

Thanks in advance

02 will be the second room along, so it is towards the end of the carriage.

Having said that, I usually deliberately try to book the end cabins myself whenever I use the Sleeper as I don't find there's much difference between end or middle and I do get enough sleep, even when I haven't been on the Sleeper the previous night as well.

 

[tubeuser]

The only time I used the sleeper which was at the end of the carriage, i didn’t get much sleep as I could feel every bump the wheels went over.

 

[telstarbox]

I had an issue at Euston over the summer (travelling in a berth that didn't give access to the lounge so no shower available and no shower at King's Cross either because they had run out of towels, causing me to go straight to work unwashed on the hottest day of the year—not pleasant). The response from CS implied that they were planning to open their own lounge at Euston to improve access and (presumably) avoid having to share facilities with Avanti over which they have little control.

It might help to avoid the absurd situation which means that the only sleeper passengers who have access to the showers at Euston are the ones who also have an en-suite shower on the train ...!

I was on the Swedish sleeper recently and they have a shower compartment with towels in each standard coach. Also if you're in First you get a voucher for breakfast at a designated cafe near your destination station which makes sense (plus not so early as on board service).

 

[BRX]

There's not that much to be gained from asking others how well they sleep on a sleeper ... Some people do, some people don't. And the annoyances that will keep one person awake might not bother another in the slightest. Only way to find out is to try it.

My fairly limited experience of the new stock is that I don't get a dramatically better or worse night's sleep than on the old stock. My normal traveling companion reckons the new stock is a bit better. I would not say it's very far off the average of the many and varied european sleepers I've used in the past twenty years or so.

 

[jagardner1984]

There's not that much to be gained from asking others how well they sleep on a sleeper ... Some people do, some people don't. And the annoyances that will keep one person awake might not bother another in the slightest. Only way to find out is to try it.

My fairly limited experience of the new stock is that I don't get a dramatically better or worse night's sleep than on the old stock. My normal traveling companion reckons the new stock is a bit better. I would not say it's very far off the average of the many and varied european sleepers I've used in the past twenty years or so.

I think the reason the “hotel on wheels” nonsense was so rightly ridiculed is that, quite patently, it isn’t. It’s an ok night’s sleep to me - I always try and tire myself out the day of travel, and can normally settle on board. There are moments where you hit pointwork at whatever point in your sleep cycle and you awake briefly. Generally I can get back to sleep. Sometimes it’s a little whole. It’s fine and whilst being 6’2” I generally feel very achy getting off a 5 hour Avanti journey, off the sleeper I am generally rested (but in no way comparable to a hotel or night in my own bed.) Expectations are important. For me it’s a great way to travel. But I do so with my eyes wide open (metaphorically !!)

 

[BRX]

Yes, for me, the essential difference from spending the night in a seat is the ability to lie flat. As you say, even if you don't sleep terribly well, at least you are less stiff and achey. All the other "hotel on wheels" bits are nice, but provide what I'd call diminishing returns.

 

[_toommm_]

I found myself a bit annoyed with the lack of info about the sleeper today at Queen Street to Fort William. I saw it wasn’t departing Edinburgh on time, so I was worried it was going to skip Queen Street as it sometimes does. It eventually said it was going to depart about 40 late at Queen Street. I only found out it wouldn’t go to Queen Street when I was watching it on Traksy and saw it didn’t turn off to Uphall at Newbridge Junction. As I rushed up to Dalmuir, it was still saying it was expected to serve Queen Street.

For the majority of people who wouldn’t have that knowledge (because frankly, why would they), it’s not a good experience, especially when the next service to Fort William is over two hours later.

 

[47296lastduff]

Fom all I have heard, they do not really want this stop, and serve it under duress.

 

[paul1609]

Fom all I have heard, they do not really want this stop, and serve it under duress.

In all fairness to CS since a 0521 service to Oban goes up the West Highland before it. It would absolutely make sense to remove the Queen St stop completely and make the other stops between Edinburgh and Crianlarich set down only. Even a solo 73 can pull back 40 mins over that section which would be valuable for reliability given the complexities further south. None of those stations have regular/ very many sleeper passengers because its easier to get the lowlander from Glasgow.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In all fairness to CS since a 0521 service to Oban goes up the West Highland before it. It would absolutely make sense to remove the Queen St stop completely and make the other stops between Edinburgh and Crianlarich set down only. Even a solo 73 can pull back 40 mins over that section which would be valuable for reliability given the complexities further south. None of those stations have regular/ very many sleeper passengers because its easier to get the lowlander from Glasgow.

Historically both Helensburgh Upper and Garelochhead had reasonable levels of Sleeper usage despite the attractions of up to three Euston to Glasgow alternatives each night, although I have no idea if this is level of usage is still the case. For day passenger a 30 minute earlier start sounds very unattractive, and in any case I am pretty sure the train will still require to stop at these stations to effect a taken exchange by radio.

 

[D6130]

Historically both Helensburgh Upper and Garelochhead had reasonable levels of Sleeper usage despite the attractions of up to three Euston to Glasgow alternatives each night, although I have no idea if this is level of usage is still the case. For day passenger a 30 minute earlier start sounds very unattractive, and in any case I am pretty sure the train will still require to stop at these stations to effect a taken exchange by radio.

Yes, back the day the sleeper was much used by naval officers from the Clyde Submarine Base at Faslane, travelling on first class warrants and boarding/alighting at either of those two stations, depending on which was nearer to their place of residence. Apparently it was known to them colloquially as 'The Garelochhead Flyer' rather than the Fort William sleeper.

The present day train would have to stop at both stations for electronic token exchange, but could pass through Ardlui without stopping, if not required to cross another train there, under 'long section' arrangements (which also apply to the crossing loop at Glen Douglas).

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Yes, back the day the sleeper was much used by naval officers from the Clyde Submarine Base at Faslane, travelling on first class warrants and boarding/alighting at either of those two stations, depending on which was nearer to their place of residence. Apparently it was known to them colloquially as 'The Garelochhead Flyer' rather than the Fort William sleeper.

And not unreasonable to assume there is still a level of Naval traffic at both stations.

 

[InOban]

In all fairness to CS since a 0521 service to Oban goes up the West Highland before it. It would absolutely make sense to remove the Queen St stop completely and make the other stops between Edinburgh and Crianlarich set down only. Even a solo 73 can pull back 40 mins over that section which would be valuable for reliability given the complexities further south. None of those stations have regular/ very many sleeper passengers because its easier to get the lowlander from Glasgow.

I'm sure it could pull back 40 minutes but unfortunately it has to pass the early southbound train from Oban and the first train from Mallaig. These are rightly given priority - otherwise the timetable would be ruined for the whole day - and previous posts have shown that if it is more than a few minutes late at Craigendoran the delay will only increase.

 

[paul1609]

Yes, back the day the sleeper was much used by naval officers from the Clyde Submarine Base at Faslane, travelling on first class warrants and boarding/alighting at either of those two stations, depending on which was nearer to their place of residence. Apparently it was known to them colloquially as 'The Garelochhead Flyer' rather than the Fort William sleeper.

The present day train would have to stop at both stations for electronic token exchange, but could pass through Ardlui without stopping, if not required to cross another train there, under 'long section' arrangements (which also apply to the crossing loop at Glen Douglas).

I retired from the Navy in 2020 after 30 years, my last 5 years were based in Faslane. I used the sleeper to Garelochead probably 6 to 10 times a year along with flying and driving to Kent. Ive never seen anybody else get on or off the sleeper there. Naval traffic was lost to the railways in the years leading up to the early 1990s.
There is a bus from the end of the road at Faslane to Helensburgh Central every 30 mins plus internal buses and minibuses most of which call at Helensburgh Central on their way to Glasgow Airport.
The trains do not have to stop at the stations to obtain the token if there's no conflicting movements but its very slow because of the 10 mph limit over the points.

 

[D6130]

I retired from the Navy in 2020 after 30 years, my last 5 years were based in Faslane. I used the sleeper to Garelochead probably 6 to 10 times a year along with flying and driving to Kent. Ive never seen anybody else get on or off the sleeper there. Naval traffic was lost to the railways in the years leading up to the early 1990s

I was talking about the 1960s and 1970s!

I retired from the Navy in 2020 after 30 years, my last 5 years were based in Faslane. I used the sleeper to Garelochead probably 6 to 10 times a year along with flying and driving to Kent. Ive never seen anybody else get on or off the sleeper there. Naval traffic was lost to the railways in the years leading up to the early 1990s.
There is a bus from the end of the road at Faslane to Helensburgh Central every 30 mins plus internal buses and minibuses most of which call at Helensburgh Central on their way to Glasgow Airport.
The trains do not have to stop at the stations to obtain the token if there's no conflicting movements but its very slow because of the 10 mph limit over the points.

They have to stop at Helensburgh Upper to undertake the changeover between the conventional signalling controlled by Yoker Area Signalling Centre and the Radio Electronic Token Block System contolled from Banavie....or vice-versa. I'm not certain of ScotRail's policy on the matter (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), but I think it highly unlikely that they would encourage electronic token change on the move, given the potential for distraction through talking and pushing buttons and the possible safety implications thereof. Every special train, freight train or light engine movement that I have seen and/or photographed there since 1988 has stopped. Indeed, IIRC, there is a large signboard a short distance beyond the North end of the platform with a red disc saying 'STOP - OBTAIN TOKEN BEFORE PROCEEDING'....or words to that effect.

 

[BRX]

I found myself a bit annoyed with the lack of info about the sleeper today at Queen Street to Fort William. I saw it wasn’t departing Edinburgh on time, so I was worried it was going to skip Queen Street as it sometimes does. It eventually said it was going to depart about 40 late at Queen Street. I only found out it wouldn’t go to Queen Street when I was watching it on Traksy and saw it didn’t turn off to Uphall at Newbridge Junction. As I rushed up to Dalmuir, it was still saying it was expected to serve Queen Street.

For the majority of people who wouldn’t have that knowledge (because frankly, why would they), it’s not a good experience, especially when the next service to Fort William is over two hours later.

Did you have a reservation? If so I think you should complain about this formally.

In all fairness to CS since a 0521 service to Oban goes up the West Highland before it. It would absolutely make sense to remove the Queen St stop completely and make the other stops between Edinburgh and Crianlarich set down only. Even a solo 73 can pull back 40 mins over that section which would be valuable for reliability given the complexities further south. None of those stations have regular/ very many sleeper passengers because its easier to get the lowlander from Glasgow.

So, make any early morning travellers who want to get from Glasgow to stations on the WHL have to get up half an hour earlier than currently necessary ... and then sit around in Crianlarich waiting for the connection if they want to go further north than that?

 

[_toommm_]

Did you have a reservation? If so I think you should complain about this formally.

Indeed I did. Luckily I managed to make it on the train at Dalmuir with about five minutes to spare (from the 06:02 ScotRail from the low level platforms).

I was originally going to get the 05:20 to Oban and get off at Dalmuir, like someone above mentioned, but jumped off when it had an ETA instead of just saying delayed.

 

[paul1609]

I'm sure it could pull back 40 minutes but unfortunately it has to pass the early southbound train from Oban and the first train from Mallaig. These are rightly given priority - otherwise the timetable would be ruined for the whole day - and previous posts have shown that if it is more than a few minutes late at Craigendoran the delay will only increase.

I don't think that's necessarily so. The real problem is the Bridge of Orchy to Rannoch section which is 30 mins in each direction.
If you look at todays train it left Edinburgh 35 down and skipped Queen St arriving at Dalmuir 20 late. It arrived at Crianlarich 22 late having presumably passed the Ex Oban train at an earlier loop than scheduled. if it didn't stop at the earlier stations I reckon in some circumstances it would have a chance to make it to Ranch without delaying the Ex Mallaig train. Today it had to wait and arrived at Ranch 45 down.

 

[_toommm_]

I don't think that's necessarily so. The real problem is the Bridge of Orchy to Rannoch section which is 30 mins in each direction.
If you look at todays train it left Edinburgh 35 down and skipped Queen St arriving at Dalmuir 20 late. It arrived at Crianlarich 22 late having presumably passed the Ex Oban train at an earlier loop than scheduled. if it didn't stop at the earlier stations I reckon in some circumstances it would have a chance to make it to Ranch without delaying the Ex Mallaig train. Today it had to wait and arrived at Ranch 45 down.

We arrived abridge of Orchy at around 08:35/08:40, but had to wait for the 09:07 departure from Bridge towards to Glasgow, so we spent about half an hour there.

It stopped at all stations to Corrour (where I alighted) apart from Ardlui, which we skipped.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

We arrived abridge of Orchy at around 08:35/08:40, but had to wait for the 09:07 departure from Bridge towards to Glasgow, so we spent about half an hour there.

It stopped at all stations to Corrour (where I alighted) apart from Ardlui, which we skipped.

A long section token Arrochar to Crianlarich would be issued to enable not stopping at Ardlui.

 

[ld0595]

Potential U-turn on the cards vis-à-vis nationalisation?

Ministers 'u-turn' over nationalisation of Scotland to London rail franchise

SCOTTISH Government may not strip outsourcing firm Serco of the £800m franchise to operate overnight rail passenger services between Scotland and…

www.heraldscotland.com

SCOTTISH Government may not strip outsourcing firm Serco of the £800m franchise to operate overnight rail passenger services between Scotland and London - two months after indicating it would be nationalised.

Transport minister Jenny Gilruth has confirmed that it is making an assessment over a direct award of the Caledonian Sleeper service to Serco - two months after saying that it would be stripped of the contract seven years early. The current 15-year franchise was awarded to the outsourcing company Serco in May 2014, with the 15-year contract coming into effect on March, 2015.

The SNP said in October that the ending of the franchise in 2023 "presents an opportunity for the Scottish Government to consider bringing the Caledonian Sleeper into public hands, just like it did with Scotrail in April this year". Transport minister Jenny Gilruth said in an answer to a parliamentary question in October that a new contract with Serco – the firm that has run the service for the past seven years – does not represent “value for money to the public”.

The franchise was due to end on June 25, next year rather than run its entire term to 2030 after Serco tried to renegotiate the terms of the contract through a process known as rebasing.
Ms Gilruth said the proposal was rejected on the grounds of "not representing value for money to the public".

Under legislation, ministers had the option to put the contract out to tender, or make a ‘direct award’ back to Serco or to a company owned and controlled by the Scottish Government – the latter effectively being public ownership.

John Whitehurst, managing director of Serco’s transport business, said they had hoped to revised the terms of the contract to put the service on a "more sustainable footing" and that it had been "loss-making over the life of the contract".

The decision came after the Scottish Government was accused of “inconsistency and double standards” by not including the Sleeper franchise in its nationalisation plans.

Transport Secretary Michael Matheson announced in March, last year that ScotRail franchise would be switched to state control when Abellio’s ten-year contract was terminated three years early after performance issues.

Now Ms Gilruth has indicated a U-turn after another parliamentary question about what assessment it had made of the financial impact of a direct award to Serco for the service.

She said: "In accordance with Scottish Ministers franchising policy statement, appropriate assessment of a direct award to Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd. is being made and ministers will inform Parliament when this assessment is concluded."

Richard Leonard, the Central Scotland MSP, who is also convenor of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers' Scottish parliamentary group believes that shows ministers are planning to hand the Caledonian Sleeper service back to Serco.

Both he and the union say that if this happens it is likely to mean the contract being awarded on more favourable terms than the original franchise agreement, with cost risk and revenue borne by the Scottish Government and Serco receiving fees, for profit, to run services.

They are now calling on the SNP and Greens to instead take the Sleeper into public ownership and reintegrate it with the ScotRail franchise.

Mr Leonard said: “To even contemplate handing this historic service back to Serco, which has proved time and again it is not fit to run our railways, is a betrayal of passengers and staff.

"The SNP and Greens must not bow to corporate pressure again, the Caledonian Sleeper must be brought into public ownership to be run by and for the people.”

ScotRail is now under the direct control of the Scottish Government through an "arms-length" company. The move has raised questions over whether the Scottish Government now intends to nationalised the sleeper service.

The service normally operates trains six nights a week between Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Fort William, Glasgow, Inverness and London.

In March, 2015, Nicola Sturgeon unveiled the new look exterior of the new Secro franchise, which was set to transform the famous cross-border rail journey into a "hotel on wheels".

The First Minister was in Inverness to launch the the service's new White Stage branding which was to become a symbol of the new Sleeper franchise.

The Scottish Government took the decision to create a standalone Sleeper franchise separate from the ScotRail umbrella for the first time as part of an ambition to revamp the overnight London-Scotland service into "a tourist rail experience to rival the best in the world".

Serco at the time also ran Australia's iconic transcontinental India Pacific service, linking Sydney and Perth, and the Dubai Metro.

RMT general secretary Mick Lynch said: “The Scottish Government is already running the ScotRail franchise in public ownership and it would provide better value for money for taxpayers and passengers if it were to reintegrate the Caledonian Sleeper with ScotRail.

“Therefore, it seems absurd that the Scottish Government has admitted it is considering making a further direct award to Serco, which will allow the private company to continue profiting from public funds.

“The Serco Caledonian Sleeper franchise has been beset with problems throughout the duration of the franchise, and the Scottish Government must now abandon any plans to hand it a further contract and instead commit to running Scotland’s rail passenger services in one publicly owned company.”

Mr Whitehurst said after ministers said Serco were being stripped of the franchise two months ago that when it took over the service in April 2015, they inherited an "unreliable and outdated fleet of carriages dating back to the 1970s".

He insisted the service that Serco provided was widely recognised as being "outstanding, providing hotel standard service and accommodation that is renowned and admired around the world and loved by the people who travel on it".

He said the contract signed in 2014 included a ‘rebase clause’ that meant that, after seven years of the 15-year franchise, Serco could present to the Scottish Government alternative financial arrangements for the remaining years of the franchise.

He said the Scottish Government and Serco were not able to reach agreement on these revised terms, and that the management of the Sleeper would be handed back to the Scottish Government.

Mr Whitehurst added: “We note that the Government’s decision not to accept our proposals has not been made due to any performance issues; from Serco’s point of view the service has been loss-making over the life of the contract and the proposals that we made to Transport Scotland were to put it on a more sustainable financial footing. "We will continue to work with Transport Scotland around options for the future management of the service and in the meantime will continue to deliver a world-class service for our guests.”

Existing services and timetables were to continue until the end of the contract.

 

[paul1609]

We arrived abridge of Orchy at around 08:35/08:40, but had to wait for the 09:07 departure from Bridge towards to Glasgow, so we spent about half an hour there.

It stopped at all stations to Corrour (where I alighted) apart from Ardlui, which we skipped.

Where did you stop at Corrour (and if you don't mind me asking how much did it cost)?

 

[_toommm_]

Where did you stop at Corrour (and if you don't mind me asking how much did it cost)?

I didn’t stop at Corrour unfortunately, as much as I would have loved to. I got the sleeper back down that evening after a hike.

 

[Techniquest]

I didn’t stop at Corrour unfortunately, as much as I would have loved to. I got the sleeper back down that evening after a hike.

I hope I'm not the only one who wants to know more about the hike

 

[32475]

I hope I'm not the only one who wants to know more about the hike

No. Me too!

 

[_toommm_]

I hope I'm not the only one who wants to know more about the hike

No. Me too!

It was initially a ten mile hike around Loch Ossian, and I branched off at the other side of the Loch to the station, around some of the hills at that side.