Caledonian Sleeper

[Bald Rick]

I think it's more appropriate to look at the funding per passenger km given sleeper journeys and ticket costs are considerably higher than for all the other TOCs.

Using that metric, it's the 5th most expensive.
£ per km
0.26 Northern
0.26 Wales & Borders
0.21 Scotrail
0.19 Merseyrail Electrics
0.16 Caledonian Sleeper

Fair enough.

In which case we should compare to the other pure long distance TOCs: West Coast at 1p/pax km, and East Coast at a negative subsidy (ie premium) of 2p/pax km.

So 16 times worse than the next closest.

 

[BRX]

Fair enough.

In which case we should compare to the other pure long distance TOCs: West Coast at 1p/pax km, and East Coast at a negative subsidy (ie premium) of 2p/pax km.

So 16 times worse than the next closest.

I dunno - what's the logic of comparing to long distance operators only?

If it's to answer the question of, say, 'what's the most cost effective way, from public spending point of view, of conveying a passenger from Inverness to London' then the figure averaged out over the EC or WC franchises isn't going to be representative of that particular journey.

Would be interesting to know the CS subsidy split between lowlander and highlander operations, although that's probably impossible to do.

 

[BRX]

...even more interesting would be the *real* subsidy given to a car journey from Inverness to London! But it's also impossible to extract a figure for that which everyone could agree on.

 

[31160]

Are they doubling the 73's on the Ft Bill in this weather or is it still singles

 

[Bletchleyite]

...even more interesting would be the *real* subsidy given to a car journey from Inverness to London! But it's also impossible to extract a figure for that which everyone could agree on.

I suspect road traffic as a whole (if you consider the provision of roads other than those which are solely footpaths against the income from all forms of motorised traffic, i.e. VED and fuel taxes as well as VAT on any motoring-related items) is profitable to the country. Would be interested to know if that is true or not, though.

 

[BRX]

I suspect road traffic as a whole (if you consider the provision of roads other than those which are solely footpaths against the income from all forms of motorised traffic, i.e. VED and fuel taxes as well as VAT on any motoring-related items) is profitable to the country. Would be interested to know if that is true or not, though.

Well, it's a never-ending argument about what you do or don't count as 'externalities', basically.

If you only count road building / maintenance as the 'cost' then yes there is more received in revenue. But the real costs extend beyond that.

http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thin...vers-start-paying-the-full-costs-of-motoring/

 

[47271]

Interesting it's not in the standard format!

It's just a VAT receipt from their onboard retail system. I imagine that you could go on to order a meal before paying and have its details printed on your ticket too!

 

[47271]

I dunno - what's the logic of comparing to long distance operators only?

If it's to answer the question of, say, 'what's the most cost effective way, from public spending point of view, of conveying a passenger from Inverness to London' then the figure averaged out over the EC or WC franchises isn't going to be representative of that particular journey.

Would be interesting to know the CS subsidy split between lowlander and highlander operations, although that's probably impossible to do.

To be fair to cb a1, I think their point was a bit more arithmetical than that - they were just saying that longer trips will cost more in general and so we should compare subsidy per km rather than per passenger. Bald Rick also, quite rightly, said okay then let's compare the sleeper with other anglo Scottish operators on that basis.

Anyway, whatever way you look at it the sleeper is very expensive to its users, and to its operator, and to the taxpayer. We know that already, and we know that so far it's cost Serco a lot more than they expected. Let's hope it gets better from now on in...

I've no idea on Lowlander vs Highlander other than to say that Edinburgh, Fort William and Inverness generally load well and Aberdeen and Glasgow load badly, but how that plays out with subsidies is something else entirely.

 

[route101]

On the sleeper tonight from Glasgow to London ! Solo berth , wonder if i can get into the lounge ?

 

[BRX]

To be fair to cb a1, I think their point was a bit more arithmetical than that - they were just saying that longer trips will cost more in general and so we should compare subsidy per km rather than per passenger. Bald Rick also, quite rightly, said okay then let's compare the sleeper with other anglo Scottish operators on that basis.

Anyway, whatever way you look at it the sleeper is very expensive to its users, and to its operator, and to the taxpayer. We know that already, and we know that so far it's cost Serco a lot more than they expected. Let's hope it gets better from now on in...

I've no idea on Lowlander vs Highlander other than to say that Edinburgh, Fort William and Inverness generally load well and Aberdeen and Glasgow load badly, but how that plays out with subsidies is something else entirely.

I completely agree it makes sense to compare on the basis of passenger km - because that seems to reveal it's not really more heavily subsidised than certain other operations.

But I don't think the other anglo-scottish operators are really comparable because they don't do the same thing - they concentrate nearly all of their business on the more profitable routes between major cities (which is not what the Highlander sleeper does at all)

 

[MrEd]

Are they doubling the 73's on the Ft Bill in this weather or is it still singles

I was on the Fort William portion on the morning of Saturday 26th and the evening of Sunday 27th, and it was just a single Class 73 (73969) both ways. The Fort William portion is down to load 4 at the moment (with just 2 sleeper coaches) for the low season (I think it'll be back to load 5 by the end of March) so a single Class 73 should be able to manage (it seemed to do fine at the weekend).

 

[Iskra]

I was on the Fort William portion on the morning of Saturday 26th and the evening of Sunday 27th, and it was just a single Class 73 (73969) both ways. The Fort William portion is down to load 4 at the moment (with just 2 sleeper coaches) for the low season (I think it'll be back to load 5 by the end of March) so a single Class 73 should be able to manage (it seemed to do fine at the weekend).

It's been just 73969 Mon, Tues and Wednesday this week. I counted 7 passengers on it on Wednesday night (although there could have been more that I didn't see)

 

[MrEd]

It's been just 73969 Mon, Tues and Wednesday this week. I counted 7 passengers on it on Wednesday night (although there could have been more that I didn't see)

Was that just in the seated coach or the whole train? If so, that would definitely have been a quiet one (although Wednesday nights in late January are probably not a busy time for any CS service).

 

[Iskra]

Was that just in the seated coach or the whole train? If so, that would definitely have been a quiet one (although Wednesday nights in late January are probably not a busy time for any CS service).

There was nobody in the seated coach when it pulled into Crianlarich and only 1 person in it on arrival at London Euston the next day. The other 6 were in the beds.

In the morning I saw a few more people but I think that was due to 2 of the 3 portions sharing one lounge car.

Yes, it’s about as off-peak as you will get. So actually quite good!

 

[Essexman]

So my sleeper trips to Scotland are being subsidised by more than £1000 a year. But I'm putting much more than that into the Scottish economy, with hotels, restaurants, ferries, rail travel etc, for both holidays and business travel. And from a business point of view I'd be less likely to do business with Scottish companies if I had to travel by day train (I wouldn't consider driving or flying).

I've just booked to Glasgow on 26th May (appears to be running via the East Coast). That will be part of a week's holiday involving four ferry trips and six nights in hotels, which we wouldn't have done if it wasn't for the sleeper.

So yes the sleeper gets a big subsidy but it brings benefits to Scotland's economy.

 

[greatkingrat]

So my sleeper trips to Scotland are being subsidised by more than £1000 a year. But I'm putting much more than that into the Scottish economy, with hotels, restaurants, ferries, rail travel etc, for both holidays and business travel. And from a business point of view I'd be less likely to do business with Scottish companies if I had to travel by day train (I wouldn't consider driving or flying).

I've just booked to Glasgow on 26th May (appears to be running via the East Coast). That will be part of a week's holiday involving four ferry trips and six nights in hotels, which we wouldn't have done if it wasn't for the sleeper.

So yes the sleeper gets a big subsidy but it brings benefits to Scotland's economy.

Of course, by the same reasoning you could say that the sleeper encourages Scots to travel to London, which is a loss to Scotland's economy!

 

[TimboM]

Of course, by the same reasoning you could say that the sleeper encourages Scots to travel to London, which is a loss to Scotland's economy!

...but a boost to the London economy. If we're being parochial about it, "Westminster" (DfT) subsidises the Sleeper as well as the Scottish Parliament (Transport Scotland) - they just don't make as much noise about it...!!

In reality though it's UK tax-payer's money which is deemed an appropriate investment in a UK transport link/service which generates other benefits to the UK economy.

 

[TimboM]

On the sleeper tonight from Glasgow to London ! Solo berth , wonder if i can get into the lounge ?

In theory First Class get priority, but at this time of year it's unlikely the lounge car will be that busy.

 

[MrEd]

In theory First Class get priority, but at this time of year it's unlikely the lounge car will be that busy.

I've never used the Lowland train, but from my experience on the Inverness and Fort William routes, this rule is almost never enforced (although I think the on-train staff still can enforce it if the train is exceptionally busy). I can't say that I've ever been asked to show a ticket, or even what class I'm travelling in when going into the lounge car on either of these routes and most staff that I know are generally very laid back about this. Until last year you could, as a First Class passenger, pre-order an evening meal for £15 which would ensure a reserved table in the lounge, but I think that has stopped now (although I'm told it's coming back with the new stock). At the moment, it generally seems to be a first come first served setup, regardless of whether you have a standard or first class ticket.

 

[47271]

More diligent stewards ask those arriving in the lounge at busy times to provide their cabin numbers and send away those not qualifying, or at least ask them to come back later when First Class passengers have been served. Others don't bother and you end up with people standing in the lounge, or even down the corridor of the first sleeper coach.

It seems that there is a procedure, but few staff consider it worthwhile to carry it out. There might be a reason for that: bear in mind that a full section of the Highlander can accomodate 36 First Class passengers and there's only 26 lounge seats in a typical mk2 setup, so it's never going to be easy.

 

[Bald Rick]

So my sleeper trips to Scotland are being subsidised by more than £1000 a year. But I'm putting much more than that into the Scottish economy, with hotels, restaurants, ferries, rail travel etc, for both holidays and business travel. And from a business point of view I'd be less likely to do business with Scottish companies if I had to travel by day train (I wouldn't consider driving or flying).

I've just booked to Glasgow on 26th May (appears to be running via the East Coast). That will be part of a week's holiday involving four ferry trips and six nights in hotels, which we wouldn't have done if it wasn't for the sleeper.

So yes the sleeper gets a big subsidy but it brings benefits to Scotland's economy.

Fair enough, but you are in a very small minority of people who won’t drive or fly for London- Scotland. And I suspect a very significant majority of sleeper passengers would still make the journey, but by other means, if the sleeper wasn’t there.

And at some point, if matters don’t improve, questions will start being asked about the extent to which this really does help Scotland’s economy, at least compared to other options for spending that cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More diligent stewards ask those arriving in the lounge at busy times to provide their cabin numbers and send away those not qualifying, or at least ask them to come back later when First Class passengers have been served. Others don't bother and you end up with people standing in the lounge, or even down the corridor of the first sleeper coach.

It seems that there is a procedure, but few staff consider it worthwhile to carry it out. There might be a reason for that: bear in mind that a full section of the Highlander can accomodate 36 First Class passengers and there's only 26 lounge seats in a typical mk2 setup, so it's never going to be easy.

I think it's likely to be less of an issue on the Lowlander, which as it's only moving for about 8 hours will have quite a lot of passengers who just want to get their head down straight away. On the Highlander, particularly the FW, it's key to the experience - being cooped up in a compartment for that period wouldn't be much fun - if not allowed in the lounge I'd rather cough up a single to Glasgow (probably not even technically necessary depending on the ticket held) and sit in the seated coach!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair enough, but you are in a very small minority of people who won’t drive or fly for London- Scotland.

I would say most people won't drive for London to Scotland - it's just way too far to do in one go. Many might do it with a stop-off if going for a week's ski-ing, say, but I doubt many business travellers do it by car. Most of them will use day trains or fly. Particularly where they have a remote working capability so can leave early and work from the train.

I would agree that the Sleeper is a minority, particularly at current prices.

 

[Essexman]

I wouldn't fly to Scotland on environmental grounds and I certainly wouldn't drive that far.
I would (and do) take the day train but it would reduce the number of trips I make and I'd be less likely to add on a day or two to a business trip and travel to the far North as I often do. For example last month, my two nights in an Inverness hotel, train trip to Brora, train from Glasgow to Inverness and associated spending would all have been lost to the Scottish economy without the sleeper.

 

[47271]

I think that discussion of long term viability is premature until Serco have at least a year of operation of the new trains under their belts. I hope that they succeed, subsidy can be reduced and they can make a profit from it, or losses stopped for starters, otherwise there's no point in them doing it.

The one thing on their side, and noone could have wholly predicted this five years ago, is that tourism demand in Scotland has never been stronger. If ever there was a good moment for turning the sleeper into something that's focused as a tourist experience then it's now. Fingers crossed...

 

[Deafdoggie]

How long are Serco prepared to keep funding it through losses though? Enough must be enough at some point?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long are Serco prepared to keep funding it through losses though? Enough must be enough at some point?

Depends on the contract. They may well not have a get out clause.

 

[fishquinn]

With the price increases occurring I can see the sleeper definitely becoming more of a luxury thing for the experience more than anything else. I'm not sure how much of an improvement the new stock will be in terms of comfort but I don't see how they could make it more appealing than a good hotel in Inverness and a relatively cheap flight for the majority of people. For business travellers many won't care about the cost and would instead go for the convenience but the sleeper is now particularly overpriced for a family (as an example), who would look at other options for going to Scotland.

My most recent experience of Cally Sleeper was last night in fact, going north from London to Inverness in a classic twin. Check in was quite quick because we were fairly late arriving but there was still a small queue for the Inverness portion and no one at the Aberdeen/Fort Bill queues. The railcard was checked before boarding (ISTR that many people in this thread have said that there was no railcard checks until recently?) and there was no hassle with finding the berth. I was in the bottom bunk and I definitely didn't like the mattress. It was incredibly thin, so much so that when just sitting or lying on the bed you could feel the wooden board below. The top bunk didn't have this problem so it was hopefully just a one off. The journey was punctual and, apart from some annoying rattling - possibly the ladder hitting the wall as the train moved (I tried to sort it but wasn't very awake at 4 in the morning so couldn't even work out what it was, let alone how to fix it) - it was a decent journey. Came up to £132 for the two of us to get from London to Inverness with the railcard. Definitely not as cheap as it's been before (we've had it for about £70 in the past) but still not overly expensive when work is paying and more convenient than a flight (although flying via Amsterdam from Birmingham looked to be the same price).

 

[Meerkat]

I would say most people won't drive for London to Scotland - it's just way too far to do in one go

It really isn’t. I live in Surrey and have driven to the Forth Bridge in a day including a cross country drive through the borders and stop offs at Kielder, the Kelpies and the Falkirk wheel.
Also driven home from Loch Lomond twice (one including watching a game at Tranmere then the rest of the way without going on the motorways).
Friends regularly do it and Scots colleagues have done it regularly for business trips.
Even knew one crazy bloke who would drive up and back to use his Inverness season ticket!!!

 

[Chrism20]

Depends on the contract. They may well not have a get out clause.

The ScotRail one has one, I’ll be surprised if the sleeper doesn’t.

Someone in the know will no doubt advise.