Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

Rumours have it that the Viewliners CAF are making for Amtrak in the US, and which are extremely delayed (we are talking years) have been sold to Canada without running a single mile on US rails... I think the faster Serco and TPE can get out of this deal, the better.

The trouble is that if the Mk5s fail, then what? Complete end of CS is the only likely outcome, perhaps a 3am "day train" service from both ends on the Lowlander but no Highlander.

None of us wants that.

 

[diffident]

Perhaps a way forward to ensure sleeper trains are fit for purpose is for there to be a responsibility on the TOC managing director to spend a complete week travelling satisfactorily overnight aboard such train before it can be inflicted on the poor travelling public. One suspects the trains would not have been introduced had this been a feature of the licence to operate them.

A big problem with all recent new fleet introductions appears to have been that the testing is done by people down the food chain and by the time its been raised to director level, there are hardly any issues. Brunel would have gone and had a look himself!

I have a better idea - Senior Management at TS and Serco with direct involvement in CalSleeper should from today, until all issues with the new train introduction, or a decision is made to can them and keep the old trains, work for the legal national minimum wage with no overtime allowances.

Once there is a risk of sizeable mortgages not being paid and skiing holidays suddenly in jeopardy, things would change in a rather rapid fashion!

One of the problems with capitalism in scenario's such as this, is that senior management don't know the value of a pound, unless its in the form of a saving to their business, and thus going into their bonus/salary bump.

This post comes across rather cynical, and where professional suppliers to Government such as Serco are concerned, I'm incredibly sceptical. It doesn't help that they continue to prove the fact time and time again, that when tendering for a private company to operate a function, it shouldn't be just on best value for money, but also on the experience, knowledge, and previous track record in the specific industry, of the company bidding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This post comes across rather cynical, and where professional suppliers to Government such as Serco are concerned, I'm incredibly sceptical. It doesn't help that they continue to prove the fact time and time again, that when tendering for a private company, it shouldn't be just on best value for money, but also on the experience and knowledge of the company bidding.

On the face of it Serco had that experience with the Aussie tourist trains.

 

[diffident]

On the face of it Serco had that experience with the Aussie tourist trains.

Indeed, they were initially in a consortium which then lumbered them with the operation shortly thereafter. They got shot of it though if I remember correctly quite a while ago, and from what I can recall (I'll have to find some quantifiable facts to back this up), regularly came to blows with the authorities providing the substantial service subsidies.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Does anyone have the supposed new date in September?
(Sept quoted by CS in the BBC report linked earlier in the thread.)
CS Twitter telling people they can have a date when the new stock running instead...
So when...?
What's the latest anybody's had the email about?

 

[mralexn]

If the old stock is going to have to last another 2 - 3 months (at least?) in peak season, CS need to improve the reliability of the mk2 lounge cars. A combination of a locked-out (or missing) lounge car, with cabins that have both bunks made up even for single occupancy, wouldn't provide anywhere comfortable to sit for a 12-hour journey.

Silly question, but why do both bunks need to be made up, even when they know ahead of time that a 1st class ticket holder with single occupancy will be travelling in the room?

 

[InOban]

My reading of the BBC item suggests that, having put together 4 sets, each will operate the Lowlander every second night, so after arrival at Wembley or Polmadie the fitters will have 36 hours to snag the set before its next duty. Seems a sensible plan.

 

[VT 390]

I have also received an email from Caledonian Sleeper today and I am still going to travel but as they are saying that they will take a long time to respond does anyone on here know for certain that I will NOT have to share a room with a club room ticket? If this is not the case I would not want to travel.
The reason why I am concerned about this is that it also says that the rooms will be all set up as doubles and I am confused as to why they will be doing this unless they are planning on putting people together.

 

[alistairlees]

I have also received an email from Caledonian Sleeper today and I am still going to travel but as they are saying that they will take a long time to respond does anyone on here know for certain that I will NOT have to share a room with a club room ticket? If this is not the case I would not want to travel.
The reason why I am concerned about this is that it also says that the rooms will be all set up as doubles and I am confused as to why they will be doing this unless they are planning on putting people together.

You should not have to share at all. The setting up rooms as doubles is to do with NRS (the reservation system), and is not an attempt to make you share.

 

[VT 390]

You should not have to share at all. The setting up rooms as doubles is to do with NRS (the reservation system), and is not an attempt to make you share.

Thanks for the reply.
Do you know how the reservation system works, as I would have thought as they know who will be travelling (from tickets sold) they could set up the rooms for the correct number of people travelling in each one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My reading of the BBC item suggests that, having put together 4 sets, each will operate the Lowlander every second night, so after arrival at Wembley or Polmadie the fitters will have 36 hours to snag the set before its next duty. Seems a sensible plan.

Agreed, this could hopefully provide a slightly less rushed way of sorting problems out. Very sensible.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks for the reply.
Do you know how the reservation system works, as I would have thought as they know who will be travelling (from tickets sold) they could set up the rooms for the correct number of people travelling in each one.

I do but it’s a bit more complex as the accommodation types all need to be changed around. It isn’t really possible to be changing room layouts from one service to the next as it mucks up the reservation system. This is the best compromise.

 

[Caleb2010]

But, apart from the breakfast and priority access to the lounge - if it exists, the only difference is that in first, the top bunk is stowed away. So the accommodation is the same, hardly a first class experience!

As shared berths, sorry rooms are not permitted (normally), what is the incentive to purchase a first class ticket/experience!

 

[Morayshire]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00637/2019/06/26/advanced

Test run of what I think is Mk5s seems to have come to a halt at Laurencekirk. Hope the wheels aren't coming off the cunning plan for the lowlander already

 

[Leisurefirst]

Last year after the new stock was delayed I was able to change one of my journeys from two seats with a Two Together discount to berths with a Two Together discount.
Just checked fares on the CS website to see if I might do the same for September as it will now be the old stock apparently yet only seems to give discount off the seats not the berths.
Have they been giving the discount off planned old stock Highlander journeys lately?
Wondered if the 2TGR discount has been binned off of all berths old and new stock or it's a glitch?

 

[Leisurefirst]

Last year after the new stock was delayed I was able to change one of my journeys from two seats with a Two Together discount to berths with a Two Together discount.
Just checked fares on the CS website to see if I might do the same for September as it will now be the old stock apparently yet only seems to give discount off the seats not the berths.
Have they been giving the discount off planned old stock Highlander journeys lately?
Wondered if the 2TGR discount has been binned off of all berths old and new stock or it's a glitch?

Just answered my own question now I finally found the "Railcard" section of their website and got it to work.
They don't give any 2TGR discounts any more except in seats.
Funny that, when they first ditched it the reason given was because the product was "different" on the new trains.
Then when last year they had to use the old trains it was reinstated.
Now it's still going to be the old trains but... tough!

 

[Crepello]

Tonight's 1S25 getting ready for the off...

 

[Sirius]

Possible bad news for the Fort William - Edinburgh portion tonight. Wires down at Charing Cross (Glasgow).

 

[adrock1976]

Possible bad news for the Fort William - Edinburgh portion tonight. Wires down at Charing Cross (Glasgow).

It could be diverted via Maryhill Park then either straight onto the Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway or via Springburn, Cumbernauld, and Falkirk Grahamston.

Those were the routes that it used to run to and from Edinburgh.

 

[Scotrail84]

It could be diverted via Maryhill Park then either straight onto the Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway or via Springburn, Cumbernauld, and Falkirk Grahamston.

Those were the routes that it used to run to and from Edinburgh.

Assuming the crew have the route signed.

 

[alangla]

Assuming the crew have the route signed.

It goes via the E&G fairly regularly during disruption, so hopefully the crew will have the appropriate knowledge

 

[MrEd]

You should not have to share at all. The setting up rooms as doubles is to do with NRS (the reservation system), and is not an attempt to make you share.

I'm absolutely sure that's right. There is no need to make anyone share as there is more than enough space in the existing Mk3s to give all solo passengers a berth to themselves, and sharing with a stranger has been stopped officially (the only exception, I believe, is when the seated coach has failed and they may ask passengers with seated tickets to share a cabin. I don't think that they could ever make a passenger with a solo berth ticket share one against their will). In any case, passengers will have bought tickets on the ground that they ensure solo occupancy- there would be some very irate folk if they arrived at Euston to be told they had to share with a stranger!

 

[MrEd]

It goes via the E&G fairly regularly during disruption, so hopefully the crew will have the appropriate knowledge

Sometimes the down Fort William portion is routed the direct route via Falkirk High (to join the Maryhill line at Cowlairs East) when it leaves Edinburgh late, as it's an opportunity to make up time (about 20 minutes can be made up if I remember rightly). The only snag is that a bus (or ticket acceptance on a North Clyde service) needs to be provided so that day passengers from Glasgow QS can meet the train at Dalmuir. It has done this diversion fairly recently (earlier this year when I was on it, if I remember rightly). That said, not all crews necessarily sign it, and the direct route may sometimes be under possession at night. I'm not sure how recently 1Y11 has been routed via Cumbernauld and Springburn; I don't think I've been that way since First Group days, so possibly knowledge of that route is not routinely retained.

 

[TimboM]

They were quoting to people on Twitter yesterday that it was still 8th July for the Highland. Obviously they need to brief their twitter team better. https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1143643029749882881

Ever considered that their team might have been briefed this morning once the decision was made and before the announcement was made public - as is standard practice in companies for such announcements?

Perhaps a way forward to ensure sleeper trains are fit for purpose is for there to be a responsibility on the TOC managing director to spend a complete week travelling satisfactorily overnight aboard such train before it can be inflicted on the poor travelling public. One suspects the trains would not have been introduced had this been a feature of the licence to operate them.

A big problem with all recent new fleet introductions appears to have been that the testing is done by people down the food chain and by the time its been raised to director level, there are hardly any issues. Brunel would have gone and had a look himself!

The Serco MD does travel on the Sleeper, including on launch night where he personally spoke to passengers (including in the seats) and apologised to them for the delays.
As do the Scottish Ministers/MPs who are the "customer".

 

[Bald Rick]

The Serco MD travels on the service a fair bit, including on launch night where he personally spoke to passengers (including in the seats) and apologised to them for the delays.
As do the Scottish Ministers/MPs who are the "customer".

Precisely. And I know that the Serco top brass use it too.

Besides, having one person travelling for a week is hardly going to be a good test of quality.

The problems experienced by some travellers are particular to them on that night - something or other not working in the compartment. No doubt there have been many travellers where everything did work. The M.D. couldn’t possibly sleep in every compartment to winkle out every fault!

 

[Highlandspring]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00637/2019/06/26/advanced

Test run of what I think is Mk5s seems to have come to a halt at Laurencekirk. Hope the wheels aren't coming off the cunning plan for the lowlander already

Turned out to be nothing serious.

Possible bad news for the Fort William - Edinburgh portion tonight. Wires down at Charing Cross (Glasgow).

It could be diverted via Maryhill Park then either straight onto the Edinburgh & Glasgow Railway or via Springburn, Cumbernauld, and Falkirk Grahamston.

It’s going via the E&G.

 

[DarloRich]

There are some bizarre posts on this board at times! The two below take the biscuit! They clearly have no idea about projects and project delivery.

Perhaps a way forward to ensure sleeper trains are fit for purpose is for there to be a responsibility on the TOC managing director to spend a complete week travelling satisfactorily overnight aboard such train before it can be inflicted on the poor travelling public. One suspects the trains would not have been introduced had this been a feature of the licence to operate them.

You honestly think that it would be an effective use of the time of the CEO to test beds and seats? Honestly? It is bizarre. His time would be better spent working with his legal team to secure damages and managing the media fall out for these problems. Leave testing to people who are experienced in testing and sorting out the resulting problems. That's what you hire then for!

A big problem with all recent new fleet introductions appears to have been that the testing is done by people down the food chain and by the time its been raised to director level, there are hardly any issues. Brunel would have gone and had a look himself!

That is what testing is for! Do you expect the managing director to be notified of every fault and pop down with his screwdriver to fix it? The entire point is to only escalate the major problems that cant be fixed. That way the contractual penalty terms can be enforced based on evidence. BTW What is this wibble about Brunel?

I have a better idea - Senior Management at TS and Serco with direct involvement in CalSleeper should from today, until all issues with the new train introduction, or a decision is made to can them and keep the old trains, work for the legal national minimum wage with no overtime allowances.

Once there is a risk of sizeable mortgages not being paid and skiing holidays suddenly in jeopardy, things would change in a rather rapid fashion!

One of the problems with capitalism in scenario's such as this, is that senior management don't know the value of a pound, unless its in the form of a saving to their business, and thus going into their bonus/salary bump.

This post comes across rather cynical, and where professional suppliers to Government such as Serco are concerned, I'm incredibly sceptical. It doesn't help that they continue to prove the fact time and time again, that when tendering for a private company to operate a function, it shouldn't be just on best value for money, but also on the experience, knowledge, and previous track record in the specific industry, of the company bidding.

No: The post comes across as detached from reality. You and others seem to think people are sitting around laughing their little bits off at all the delays and cashing in their share options. Withholding wages is not going to sort these issues out. Do you HONESTLY think the evil senior management involved here have no idea exactly what these issues are costing them in time, money and reputation. Do you think they are happy with that?

Also you views on tendering mean that you can never accept bids from new entrants to the market and will simply deliver ossification from the same old players.

Precisely. And I know that the Serco top brass use it too.

Besides, having one person travelling for a week is hardly going to be a good test of quality.

The problems experienced by some travellers are particular to them on that night - something or other not working in the compartment. No doubt there have been many travellers where everything did work. The M.D. couldn’t possibly sleep in every compartment to winkle out every fault!

the voice of reason!

 

[WesternLancer]

Just answered my own question now I finally found the "Railcard" section of their website and got it to work.
They don't give any 2TGR discounts any more except in seats.
Funny that, when they first ditched it the reason given was because the product was "different" on the new trains.
Then when last year they had to use the old trains it was reinstated.
Now it's still going to be the old trains but... tough!

Yeah - I was miffed to find they did not 2TGR discount when other railcards were accepted IIRC. Assume it was cos 2TGR is a post privatised railcard so no legislative requirement to retain it which I thought the 1990s legislation protected.

You can get it if you book conventional tickets and berth fees but I was taken aback when CS call centre basically told me they don't sell such tickets and could thus not give me a price for one and I'd have to look it up myself basically - I thought all franchisees are obliged to sell full ticket range, but maybe not....

 

[gordonjahn]

Yeah - I was miffed to find they did not 2TGR discount when other railcards were accepted IIRC. Assume it was cos 2TGR is a post privatised railcard so no legislative requirement to retain it which I thought the 1990s legislation protected.

You can get it if you book conventional tickets and berth fees but I was taken aback when CS call centre basically told me they don't sell such tickets and could thus not give me a price for one and I'd have to look it up myself basically - I thought all franchisees are obliged to sell full ticket range, but maybe not....

Full range doesn't seem to be in conditions, but this is:

• We will make available clear information about the range of Tickets to help you make a well-informed choice about the most appropriate and best value Ticket for your journey.

(That said, and it's totally OT, I've seen a conductor upsell an Anytime Day return ("Do you need a Peak ticket?") from Bishopbriggs to Glasgow at 9.25 when the code on the off-peak is H9 and all restrictions have passed at 9am. But then my annoyance with Scotrail trying to portray there's a peak restriction on all tickets from Queen St in the evening - by deliberately causing confusion between ticket restrictions and "peak trains" (that don't exist as a concept in the UK) - is a routine gripe I try to get them to resolve, but they want to hide from, even though they are almost certainly breaking the same commitment in NRCoT.)

 

[diffident]

No: The post comes across as detached from reality. You and others seem to think people are sitting around laughing their little bits off at all the delays and cashing in their share options. Withholding wages is not going to sort these issues out. Do you HONESTLY think the evil senior management involved here have no idea exactly what these issues are costing them in time, money and reputation. Do you think they are happy with that?

Also you views on tendering mean that you can never accept bids from new entrants to the market and will simply deliver ossification from the same old players.

Detached from reality? absolutely not. It appears from other threads on this forum however, that it is your view that is king around here and no-one else's matters or is wrong - not the case I'm afraid.

I strongly believe that the privatised railway does not work. It is made worse when it is explained that - and the CalSleeper is a prime example - the service is heavily subsidised, and is currently being run by a serial government "third party provider". (Companies such as Serco prefer the term "Facilities Provider").

A government third party provider is a company that continuously bids on government contracts of wildly varying requirements despite having little or no relevant experience in the fields of the bids. The problem with this is that those companies (and their numbers operating in the UK are reducing as they fall out of favour with procurement executives and Government still reels from the Carillion crisis), bid with a generally exceptionally competitive bid on the basis that they intend to squeeze their sub-contractor suppliers on the delivery side of the contract.

The results of this process produces negative outcomes. Going back to the the point I made about heavy subsidy specifically on CalSleeper. Because it is so heavily funded by Transport for Scotland, it seemingly makes no sense to pay a TPP outfit who then sub-contract numerous functions again thus squeezing margin, pushing up subsidy levels, and leaving the quality of service open to issues due to the number of moving parts involved to deliver eg; a sandwich to an end user.

Transport for Scotland would do well at this point to release Serco from their obligations and bring the CalSleeper under it's remit and control. It would solve, not all, but numerous issues with the service in one swing of the bat.