Caledonian Sleeper

[Nicholas Lewis]

Stonehaven was a real shame but it is a risk of running an operational railway. Time to move on and not let every other UK traveller have to deal with what happened in an unfortunate incident. If Network Rail can’t run a service in all weather conditions then maybe it is time they hang their keys up for a company that can. The passenger comes first. Safety is extremely important but when you get to the point of stupidity and scared of a 1 in 1 million chance then you really have to question why anyone bothers to use the service

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments but society and the media doesn't and more importantly the railways have more legal enforcement than roads so until those parameters are changed this is what will happen im afraid. What is really needed is a more proportionate response to the threat faced. The Amber warning is Central Belt to the North so why are the blanket speed restrictions being imposed across the whole of Scotland and down into North England where there are no warnings.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Stonehaven was a real shame but it is a risk of running an operational railway. Time to move on and not let every other UK traveller have to deal with what happened in an unfortunate incident. If Network Rail can’t run a service in all weather conditions then maybe it is time they hang their keys up for a company that can. The passenger comes first. Safety is extremely important but when you get to the point of stupidity and scared of a 1 in 1 million chance then you really have to question why anyone bothers to use the service

It is the blaming and suing culture we live in. It is easier to shy away from ALL risk. Network rail got a not insignificant fine. If I was in their shoes I would avoid the risk of that happening again as the punishment and publicity would be far greater next time for a "repeat offence".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

For some reason this morning's sleeper seems to be approaching Edinburgh Park according to RTT
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C19440/2023-10-06/detailed#allox_id=0
A bit confused, is this last night's service and a glitch, or is this today's service but somehow not cancelled?

It's a glitch, the "approaching" note often gets stuck - but it's usually apparent this is happening when the train continues to report further along.

 

[Falcon1200]

Network rail got a not insignificant fine. If I was in their shoes I would avoid the risk of that happening again as the punishment and publicity would be far greater next time for a "repeat offence".

Not just fines, the possibility of corporate or even individual manslaughter charges being brought against staff. It is easy to say 'ignore the weather warnings (which are put out for good reasons) when having no responsibility whatsoever for for the consequences.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Probably seen as minor because everyone is that used to it and just makes alternative arrangements since we have a non existent rail network. Avanti are happily running trains to Glasgow tomorrow according to their social media team as of 10 mins ago, yet Cal Sleeper are anticipating a 9am arrival into Glasgow nearly 2hrs behind. The mind boggles

Arrived 0727 according to RTT so guess the imposition of blanket speeds is being managed dynamically by route?

 

[Trainbike46]

For the people saying network rail was overreacting, the line between Dalmuir and Helensburgh is underwater now

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailSCOT/status/1710579288192307238

Seems to me as though it was the right call to suspend services...

 

[BwniCymraeg]

Seems to me as though it was the right call to suspend services...

I’m sure some of those who appear in ScotRail’s Twitter replies will be condemning them for not arranging rail replacement barges…

 

[Deafdoggie]

I wonder how many employers are forgiving of their employees being late daily due to the same old excuses by the railway?

It's why (at least partly, anyway) why less people commute by train now. It's also why everyone I know is blissfully unaware there are rail strikes. The service is so bad in general no one notices any difference!

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's why (at least partly, anyway) why less people commute by train now. It's also why everyone I know is blissfully unaware there are rail strikes. The service is so bad in general no one notices any difference!

Yes. On Thursday we squeezed on to a Southern service at Victoria that was a Gatwick Express branded service from platform 13. Missus very worried I was leading her into penalty fares. I am beyond caring. I had noticed a lack of trains to Croydon in the next 20 minutes with only two Gatwick Expresses showing. Then one GX seemed to morph into a Southern service including a stop at East Croydon so I grabbed it quick (well only just). Yesterday I realised it was all due to planned and avoidable self inflicted railway issues.

In connection with Caledonia Sleeper it is why there is less and less patience for issues beyond CS's control (for instance nature) as the railways are just seen as always having problems. Even my enthusiast friends will not consider public transport.

 

[jagardner1984]

Yes. On Thursday we squeezed on to a Southern service at Victoria that was a Gatwick Express branded service from platform 13. Missus very worried I was leading her into penalty fares. I am beyond caring. I had noticed a lack of trains to Croydon in the next 20 minutes with only two Gatwick Expresses showing. Then one GX seemed to morph into a Southern service including a stop at East Croydon so I grabbed it quick (well only just). Yesterday I realised it was all due to planned and avoidable self inflicted railway issues.

In connection with Caledonia Sleeper it is why there is less and less patience for issues beyond CS's control (for instance nature) as the railways are just seen as always having problems. Even my enthusiast friends will not consider public transport.

It seems that the "nothing works in this country" narrative has taken hold, and sadly, for very good reason. Still - it is presumably much the same argument as the snow - it is POSSIBLE to build infrastructure with better mitigations for these kind of weather events - but we are still stuck in the mentality of "its only once every decade" when it would appear extreme weather in some form comes around most winters. I can only imagine how damaging these kind of incidents are to the Sleeper - even in October, that is a non trivial amount of passengers to refund and infuriate all in one fell swoop.

 

[trebor79]

Without wishing to stray further off topic, it was an Amber warning that was in place the night prior to the Stonehaven derailment. Given that NR officially pleaded guilty to health and safety failures only a week or two ago, their reticence to proceed with business as usual is hardly surprising

Stonehaven wasn't caused by a bit of rain, it was caused because the drainage system wasn't properly constructed. Which is why Network Rail were prosecuted and found guilty.

It is the blaming and suing culture we live in. It is easier to shy away from ALL risk. Network rail got a not insignificant fine. If I was in their shoes I would avoid the risk of that happening again as the punishment and publicity would be far greater next time for a "repeat offence".

If Network Rail can't have confidence that drainage systems are capable of dealing with ordinary weather events, and their solution is to simply close the railway, they should be replaced with a competent organisation.

 

[InOban]

Stonehaven wasn't caused by a bit of rain, it was caused because the drainage system wasn't properly constructed. Which is why Network Rail were prosecuted and found guilty.

If Network Rail can't have confidence that drainage systems are capable of dealing with ordinary weather events, and their solution is to simply close the railway, they should be replaced with a competent organisation.

I can assure you that weather in the west of Scotland today was (it's eased off now) not an 'ordinary weather event'. Every road into Oban is closed.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If Network Rail can't have confidence that drainage systems are capable of dealing with ordinary weather events, and their solution is to simply close the railway, they should be replaced with a competent organisation.

They've only closed lines that are in the amber warning area and put a reduced speed across other lines. The former is an appropriate response as its not just the drainage that matters but the impact that saturated ground may have in terms of landslides. The fact there is a blanket speed apparently imposed Scotland wide seems questionable given rainfall levels outside of the West Highland area are within normal levels but i guess risk is forecasting is just yet that and the affected areas could have been different but met office looking pretty accurate.

Below is latest rainfall gauge update for Scotland

 

[Falcon1200]

If Network Rail can't have confidence that drainage systems are capable of dealing with ordinary weather events

An ordinary weather event? You're having a laugh!

Latest update from the BBC News Website;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-67038965

If you're just joining us, here's a quick summary of the latest developments as flooding strikes across Scotland:

• The Met Office have issued an amber severe weather warning for much of west and central Scotland with a month's worth of rain expected to fall in one day.
• Landslips have closed roads in rural communities with police warning drivers not to travel in Argyll and Bute.
• There are no cross-border trains running into or from Scotland, with both the east and west coast mainlines closed at the border.
• Train services have been severely affected with all trains cancelled on many northern and Highland lines.
• There has been widespread flooding on roads with many roads too flooded to pass.

Note the last sentence in particular.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Stonehaven wasn't caused by a bit of rain, it was caused because the drainage system wasn't properly constructed. Which is why Network Rail were prosecuted and found guilty.

If Network Rail can't have confidence that drainage systems are capable of dealing with ordinary weather events, and their solution is to simply close the railway, they should be replaced with a competent organisation.

Indeed, it was the faulty drain .... which would have had no impact were it not for "a bit of rain", as you describe an exceedingly intense rainstorm - the like of which is becoming ever more frequent in the Highlands. Granted, being marooned at Glasgow Queen Street is not fun, but it's a whole lot preferable to an afternoon in the middle of nowhere with no hope of rescue. Undoubtedly, the right decision was made, difficult as it would have been.

Suggest you check out the repeated problems on A83 Rest and be thankful road for an example, lest some come to the conclusion that you haven't a clue!

GZ

 

[Bald Rick]

Stonehaven was a real shame but it is a risk of running an operational railway. Time to move on and not let every other UK traveller have to deal with what happened in an unfortunate incident. If Network Rail can’t run a service in all weather conditions then maybe it is time they hang their keys up for a company that can. The passenger comes first. Safety is extremely important but when you get to the point of stupidity and scared of a 1 in 1 million chance then you really have to question why anyone bothers to use the service

Quick Question.

Imagine that you are the Route Director for Scotland. You have a report on your desk that says there is a severe weather coming, with extreme rainfall expected. You know that the W Highland line and Highalnd Main Line are susceptible to flooding, washouts and bank slips. There is another report on your desk that says that the company you work for has been convicted of failings under the Health and Safety at Work Act for a train that derailed due to a bank slip in such conditions. Your company procedures have been amended to reduce the risk of such an event recurring.

Would you personally override those company procedures, safe in the knowledge that if a train was derailed and someone was killed, you would be going to prison for manslaughter?

 

[35B]

Quick Question.

Imagine that you are the Route Director for Scotland. You have a report on your desk that says there is a severe weather coming, with extreme rainfall expected. You know that the W Highland line and Highalnd Main Line are susceptible to flooding, washouts and bank slips. There is another report on your desk that says that the company you work for has been convicted of failings under the Health and Safety at Work Act for a train that derailed due to a bank slip in such conditions. Your company procedures have been amended to reduce the risk of such an event recurring.

Would you personally override those company procedures, safe in the knowledge that if a train was derailed and someone was killed, you would be going to prison for manslaughter?

I might well. But as someone funding that railway, I would also like to see more pressure to maintain operations where viable - the current policies seem extremely sweeping.

However, given what has hit the West Highlands and Glasgow today, I think that at least some of the route closures were spot on in their judgment.

 

[The Puddock]

Would you personally override those company procedures, safe in the knowledge that if a train was derailed and someone was killed, you would be going to prison for manslaughter?

[pedant] In Scots Law there is no such thing as ‘manslaughter‘ so the charge would be Culpable Homicide. [/pedant]

 

[Unstoppable]

Quick Question.

Imagine that you are the Route Director for Scotland. You have a report on your desk that says there is a severe weather coming, with extreme rainfall expected. You know that the W Highland line and Highalnd Main Line are susceptible to flooding, washouts and bank slips. There is another report on your desk that says that the company you work for has been convicted of failings under the Health and Safety at Work Act for a train that derailed due to a bank slip in such conditions. Your company procedures have been amended to reduce the risk of such an event recurring.

Would you personally override those company procedures, safe in the knowledge that if a train was derailed and someone was killed, you would be going to prison for manslaughter?

If someone doesn’t have the ability to work within a team to run a service albeit at reduced speed but still a service nevertheless for the public who pay them then maybe a low risk career similar to testing beds out should be look upon

 

[Peter Sarf]

If someone doesn’t have the ability to work within a team to run a service albeit at reduced speed but still a service nevertheless for the public who pay them then lets hope the prisons done fill up with maybe a low risk career similar to testing beds out should be look upon

Lets hope the prisons don't fill up with wanna be hopefulls.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No road transport due to the weather conditions yet the main coach operator throughout Scotland is running a full service plus duplicates. Another embarrassment from the railway

And now that main coach operator has a coach stranded in the floods.

 

[Unstoppable]

And now that main coach operator has a coach stranded in the floods.

….and how many people did they successfully and safely transport safely? More than can be said for the railway. People are more accepting of delays that they can see the reason for vice an excuse covering a company lack of competence

 

[Bald Rick]

If someone doesn’t have the ability to work within a team to run a service albeit at reduced speed but still a service nevertheless for the public who pay them then maybe a low risk career similar to testing beds out should be look upon

I‘m trying to work out what that sentence means, but I’m afraid it is beyond me.

How about you answer the question?

 

[InOban]

….and how many people did they successfully and safely transport safely? More than can be said for the railway. People are more accepting of delays that they can see the reason for vice an excuse covering a company lack of competence

On the roads paralleling the WHL, probably none and they have passengers sleeping on the High School floor. They are lucky the coaches weren't stuck between landslips so that the passengers didn't need to be lifted out by helicopter as 10 car passengers did.

The HML is different. Here the Victorian legacy is the issue - the river Tay has risen too close to Dalguise viaduct (not for the first time) while the various road crossings have much greater clearance.

 

[yorkie]

Can we please stick to discussion of the Caledonian Sleeper in this thread.

There are other threads to discuss some of the other topics recently under discussion here, while for any other topic a new thread can be created.

Thanks.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Tonight's Highlander services are all running, surprisingly, although with arrival times delayed to 9am, or 11am in Fort William and Inverness (via Dundee). Up Fort William service departs from Dundee with road transport and a 25% refund arranged.

Attached Network Rail photo of the line at Kingussie gives a hint of the conditions on the Highland Main Line. South of Perth looks worse!

GZ

 

[InOban]

I assume the FW portion is starting from Dundee because it terminated there on Saturday morning. The WHL was cleared for operation on Sunday afternoon, although all services had already been cancelled. All scotrail services were planned to operate today.

And the HML has now also reopened

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume the FW portion is starting from Dundee because it terminated there on Saturday morning. The WHL was cleared for operation on Sunday afternoon, although all services had already been cancelled. All scotrail services were planned to operate today.

And the HML has now also reopened

I think it is usually the case that if the FW isn't going to go to FW they just leave the coaches attached to the Aberdeen and it all goes there as a complete half set. Dundee will presumably be being used as it's presumably the easiest place to bus people to along that line of route without having to join really late in Edinburgh.

I have certainly heard of bussing to Dundee before.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Changing topic, can someone please advise the best way of booking a ticket if i want to travel from Euston to Aberdeen in a room whilst my son would join the train at Crewe to share the room. The normal website booking page only seems able to deal with single or two people occupying a room but starting at the same place and does not seem to be able to cater for the situation i have desribed.

 

[Gaelan]

Changing topic, can someone please advise the best way of booking a ticket if i want to travel from Euston to Aberdeen in a room whilst my son would join the train at Crewe to share the room. The normal website booking page only seems able to deal with single or two people occupying a room but starting at the same place and does not seem to be able to cater for the situation i have desribed.

One option is for you to book a single then for your son to join you unannounced on the day; they allow this on payment of a £50 supplement, no railcard discount. (I did this from the same station, but I don’t see why they wouldn’t allow it from a layer station.)

The other option would just be to ask them by email (or Twitter DM).