Calls for trains from Reading to London Waterloo via Earley, Wokingham and Bracknell to be made faster

[Tramtrain]

Calls for trains from Reading to London Waterloo via Earley, Wokingham and Bracknell to be made faster

Perhaps this should have been part of SWRs mysteriously disappearing “consultation” for Dec 22. How feasible would it be to path Reading trains to run non-stop from Twickenham to Waterloo?

 

[JonathanH]

Calls for trains from Reading to London Waterloo via Earley, Wokingham and Bracknell to be made faster

Perhaps this should have been part of SWRs mysteriously disappearing “consultation” for Dec 22. How feasible would it be to path Reading trains to run non-stop from Twickenham to Waterloo?

Not at all feasible because of connections at Richmond and Clapham Junction and it wouldn't save the 15 minutes the councillor envisages.

 

[swt_passenger]

Calls for trains from Reading to London Waterloo via Earley, Wokingham and Bracknell to be made faster

Perhaps this should have been part of SWRs mysteriously disappearing “consultation” for Dec 22. How feasible would it be to path Reading trains to run non-stop from Twickenham to Waterloo?

I’d say it’s impossible while so much of the route is effectively a two track railway, that includes through Vauxhall, where I think they intend having all Windsor side trains stopping in future anyway. A Local councillor who hasn’t really got a clue about how railways work is what springs to mind.

But isn‘t this suggestion not on topic for this thread, which is supposed to be about known or expected timetable changes?

 

[Goldfish62]

Perhaps this should have been part of SWRs mysteriously disappearing “consultation” for Dec 22. How feasible would it be to path Reading trains to run non-stop from Twickenham to Waterloo?

It didn't mysteriously disappear. The timetable was drawn up with the intention of implementing in December but the DfT put the brakes on it. Whether it ever sees the light of day is another matter.

 

[MarkyT]

Not at all feasible because of connections at Richmond and Clapham Junction and it wouldn't save the 15 minutes the councillor envisages.

Yes. five minutes saving at most, if it could even be pathed, as you'd just catch up the stopper in front more quickly. Cutting out Richmond and Clapham Junction would be absurd looking at the numbers of people who interchange at these stations. Many people woud be put off rail entirely if they had to make a further change at Twickenham or worse still all the expensive way into the terminus and back out again. Not everyone works in the flippin city for goodness sake.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It is probably not impossible at peak times, but during the off-peak period one has to reasonably assume it wouldn't go. Mostly because there wouldn't be the demand.

 

[JonathanH]

The motion was approved by Wokingham Council, but will almost certainly have no effect.

The councillor spoke for about three minutes at the end of the council meeting, explained how he drove from the outskirts of Wokingham to Fleet when he wanted to get to Waterloo and to Twyford when going to Paddington. Someone has apparently told him that journey times could be cut to 45 minutes to London.

 

[cle]

Surely stops would be trimmed at the other end of it. Twickenham and Feltham could go of course, but these are very well used stations. As is Vauxhall, which has been on/off over the years. Churn is also high, as is counter-peak and off peak use.

A Waterloo - Clapham - Richmond - Staines - (Ascot) - Bracknell - Wokingham...(Earley) pattern would be a reasonable saving. If pathable. But would it be full?

 

[43096]

Calls for trains from Reading to London Waterloo via Earley, Wokingham and Bracknell to be made faster

Perhaps this should have been part of SWRs mysteriously disappearing “consultation” for Dec 22. How feasible would it be to path Reading trains to run non-stop from Twickenham to Waterloo?

SWR's consultation ended up with SWR proposing to put an extra stop (Vauxhall) into the Reading service. They were of course much faster in the past, with significantly fewer stops, but there has been zero interest post privatisation in speeding things up - indeed, it has only been the opposite.

 

[Bald Rick]

We really ought to have a repository thread for such suggestions titled “Proposal for fast services from my local station that should stop calling at intermediate stations on the way to where I want to go; two fingers to those people at the intermediate stations.”

 

[Tramtrain]

We really ought to have a repository thread for such suggestions titled “Proposal for fast services from my local station that should stop calling at intermediate stations on the way to where I want to go; two fingers to those people at the intermediate stations.”

I guess the trouble is stopping at places like Longcross, where demand is infinitely less than other stops on the line, at the same frequency as Wokingham or Bracknell. It’s somewhat ridiculous it’s as quick, or quicker, to go from Waterloo to Southampton than to Wokingham. The journey peak/off-peak from Twyford to Paddington is 28/47 mins, for the same distance. Pre-covid 4tph were being introduced, if demand is indeed suppressed then surely 3 or 4 tph would enable a skip-stop pattern without penalising intermediate stations.

 

[alf]

This has prompted me to take my green 1961 Southern timetable from the bookshelf.

Table 80 shows the half hourly Waterloo to Reading South train at 24 & 54 past each hour took 28 mins non stop to Staines Central.

It was then all stations, including Longcross Halt, to Reading reached in 1 hour 15 mins. Wokingham took 1 hour 2 mins.

It was worked by wooden bodied 2 Bil & 2 Hal units with 500 hp per two car unit.

The up trains took a minute less for the 43 1/2 miles.

 

[43096]

We really ought to have a repository thread for such suggestions titled “Proposal for fast services from my local station that should stop calling at intermediate stations on the way to where I want to go; two fingers to those people at the intermediate stations.”

Strange how, to use the example here, the service inwards from Staines can be running normally and an up Reading is delayed 15-20mins at the outer end, it can then run fast from Staines to Waterloo and make up 20mins to arrive right time (or even early on occasions) without throwing out the rest of the operation.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s somewhat ridiculous it’s as quick, or quicker, to go from Waterloo to Southampton than to Wokingham. The journey peak/off-peak from Twyford to Paddington is 28/47 mins, for the same distance.

It isn't ridiculous at all given the infrastructure available. Twyford to Paddington is a fully four track railway. Southampton to Waterloo is four track from Worting Junction. Wokingham to Waterloo is four track between Clapham Junction and Barnes (and a more substantial service runs in the suburban area since 2004).

If someone wants to pay for a few substantial stretches of four track railway faster services would be possible. I think I could place a fairly reasonable bet that that is never going to happen, ever.

The service has to be a compromise. From Staines to Waterloo, the service is quite competitive with other routes. Further out it isn't.

Pre-covid 4tph were being introduced, if demand is indeed suppressed then surely 3 or 4 tph would enable a skip-stop pattern without penalising intermediate stations.

Nope, the trains, even if skip-stop, wouldn't be substantially quicker because they can't get past stopping services once they get east of Staines.

As the councillor points out, if you live on the outskirts of Wokingham, you drive to Fleet or Twyford for a faster train or you put up with the compromise on the route via Staines.

I think another point about the Reading to Waterloo line is just how indirect it is west of Staines. It runs slowly through Staines with the reverse curves and north south through Virginia Water.

 

[cle]

The 4tph Reading frequency which was planned before the pandy was going to be a different improvement. And potentially those wouldn't have all called at Longcross - or run fast from Wokingham perhaps - but almost everything else is uniform. And the Hounslow route isn't quicker which some addl Readings of previous times were pegged to take.

But yeah it is slow af, and passes through some very wealthy areas - so was bound to come up. The issue is the Richmond-Barnes stretch mainly - which could handle a metro frequency in terms of demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s somewhat ridiculous it’s as quick, or quicker, to go from Waterloo to Southampton than to Wokingham

in which case it’s ridiculous that it’s as quick to go from Kings Cross to Chesham as from Kings Cross to Waterbeach.

It’s the nature of all rail networks that different lines serve different markets and geography.

 

[Roger1973]

Before Covid (I changed jobs before Covid so can't say what things are like now) the Waterloo - Reading trains were extremely overcrowded between Clapham Junction and Twickenham - I think Twickenham residents regarded the Reading trains as 'their fast trains.' And by overcrowded, I mean that it was sometimes not possible for me to board at Clapham Junction in the pm peak, so I tended to catch an earlier westbound train and change at Twickenham or Staines rather than risk losing half an hour. (my commute involved a workplace a few stations down one of the other lines from Clapham Junction.)

There certainly were people from points west changing at Twickenham, Richmond and significantly at Clapham Junction (with the connections the Overground offers, probably more so than longer ago) but it's possible that 4 peak trains an hour, with two running faster at the London end would probably not be a bad idea. (this takes no account of pathing issues, terminus capacity and stock availability.) There used to be 2 extra peak trains which ran fast Reading - Wokingham but I think they had more stops at the London end.

I have faint recollections of cross platform connections at Ascot between the Reading trains (which ran faster) and the Camberley trains (which ran more 'stopping') from when I travelled on the line for family visits (my memories of this must start around the late 70s.)

Having said that, I seem to remember a proposal from maybe 10 years ago to increase the Waterloo - Reading service to 4 trains per hour, and there was some local objection (maybe even from Wokingham Council) on the basis it would mean the level crossing barriers being down more.

 

[JonathanH]

I have faint recollections of cross platform connections at Ascot between the Reading trains (which ran faster) and the Camberley trains (which ran more 'stopping') from when I travelled on the line for family visits (my memories of this must start around the late 70s.)

Indeed, the basic difference back then seems to be that Reading trains were effectively first on the graph. You put a train in that was fast from Waterloo to Ascot or Staines and then built the rest of the service around the available capacity left over.

The reality however is that that is a really bad use of capacity, particularly at the London end. The 2004 changes and everything else since then allowed 4tph on most of the stopping services in the London area. It also introduced the fast Shepperton services which relieved capacity on Windsor trains in the evening peak.

 

[Bald Rick]

Strange how, to use the example here, the service inwards from Staines can be running normally and an up Reading is delayed 15-20mins at the outer end, it can then run fast from Staines to Waterloo and make up 20mins to arrive right time (or even early on occasions) without throwing out the rest of the operation.

Yes, as a one off, when the rest of the operation is already in a mess, and notably the Reading to Waterloo journey time is roughly as booked…

 

[JonathanH]

If there could be interventions on the Waterloo to Reading line that could get trains to run fast from Staines (or even Ascot), what would they be?

At one point a long dynamic loop at Twickenham was mooted such that a Reading train could overtake a stopping service.

Another dynamic loop might be possible between Whitton and Feltham.

Clearly the curves at Staines can't be easily removed.

A rebuild at Ascot might also enable a different service pattern.

However, none of these really make a massive difference and for every fast train, a semi-fast / stopper would still need to run so capacity at Waterloo is an issue.

Moreover, where do you miss out? Does Sunningdale or Egham deserve a faster service or do they just get stoppers? Is it reasonable to miss out Clapham Junction or Richmond?

 

[London Trains]

If 4tph to Reading is viable again then a service pattern like this is probably best:

xx:03 Windsor semifast (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Putney, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, all stations)

xx:06 Waterloo via Kingston (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, Mortlake, North Sheen, Richmond, St Margarets, Twickenham, Strawberry Hill...)

xx:12 Weybridge via Hounslow (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, all stations via Hounslow, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, Egham, Virginia Water, Chertsey, Addlestone)

xx:15 Reading fast (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Richmond, Twickenham, Staines, Bracknell, all stations)
> overtakes xx:12 between Clapham Jct and Barnes.

xx:18 Reading semifast (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Putney, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, all stations)

xx:21 Waterloo via Twickenham (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, Mortlake, North Sheen, Richmond, St Margarets, Twickenham, Whitton, Hounslow...)

xx:27 Waterloo via Hounslow (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, all stations via Hounslow, Whitton...)

xx:33 Windsor semifast (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Putney, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, all stations)

xx:36 Waterloo via Kingston (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, Mortlake, North Sheen, Richmond, St Margarets, Twickenham, Strawberry Hill...)

xx:42 Weybridge via Hounslow (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, all stations via Hounslow, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, Egham, Virginia Water, Chertsey, Addlestone)

xx:45 Reading fast (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Richmond, Twickenham, Staines, Bracknell, all stations)
> overtakes xx:42 between Clapham Jct and Barnes.

xx:48 Reading semifast (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Putney, Richmond, Twickenham, Whitton, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, all stations)

xx:51 Waterloo via Twickenham (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, Mortlake, North Sheen, Richmond, St Margarets, Twickenham, Whitton, Hounslow...)

xx:57 Waterloo via Hounslow (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes, all stations via Hounslow...)

I'd close Queenstown Rd to simplify the operation of the Windsor lines since the Northern Line extension to Battersea Power Station serves the area from Waterloo and Southern services to Battersea Park serve the area from the south/west by changing at Clapham Junction.

I'd also call everything at Vauxhall to further simplify the service pattern to have everything run at the same speed to Clapham Junction.

The Weybridge via Hounslow trains running 3 mins before the Reading fasts means they join the Feltham to Staines section pretty much exactly in the middle of the Reading semifast and Windsor services, therefore not causing any conflicts.

The Waterloo via Kingston services currently leave at 03 and 33, so with the closure of Queenstown Road and a slight speed up, the 06 and 36 times should mean they slot into their current slots on the SWML, meaning a recast of services on the SWML will not be necessary.

 

[Tramtrain]

If there could be interventions on the Waterloo to Reading line that could get trains to run fast from Staines (or even Ascot), what would they be?

If Heathrow Southern Rail was ever built, 2tph could divert to stop at Heathrow then run fast/semi fast to Paddington, for a journey time of less than 1hr WKM-LON.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

We really ought to have a repository thread for such suggestions titled “Proposal for fast services from my local station that should stop calling at intermediate stations on the way to where I want to go; two fingers to those people at the intermediate stations.”

You are the North Cotswold Line Taskforce and I claim my five pounds.

 

[Bald Rick]

You are the North Cotswold Line Taskforce and I claim my five pounds.

I fortunately kept out of their way - didnt realise that was their objective too.

 

[davews]

The problem with all these suggestions is that what speeds up one person's journey slows down somebody else's. The 2019 4tph proposals led to strong objection from our local councillors that having alternate trains missing Martins Heron was not on. An earlier scheme years ago where Martins Heron was missed on alternative trains was withdrawn at the next timetable.

The issue is probably as suggested to make alternative arrangements for the Waterloo to Feltham leg which is always overcrowded. Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Richmond-Feltham then all stations would work well provided there were sufficient other services for the stations at the London end. Longcross usage is slowly increasing so as a long term plan may be more important than now (and they have just spent a lot tarting up the waiting shelters which must mean SWR have confidence in it).

 

[JonathanH]

Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Richmond-Feltham then all stations would work well provided there were sufficient other services for the stations at the London end.

Years ago, Twickenham was missed out in the peak but you lose the connection to Kingston, not that the timings currently work well. You really can't win with missing out stops from a connectional point of view. As for all stations from Feltham, Ashford is missed out on most Reading services.

 

[James90012]

If Heathrow Southern Rail was ever built, 2tph could divert to stop at Heathrow then run fast/semi fast to Paddington, for a journey time of less than 1hr WKM-LON.

That's the only way I could see it working: 2tph Reading to Padd via Wokingham, Bracknell and Heathrow and 2tph as now or even a bit slower to Waterloo.

 

[davews]

You can pick up the Kingston services at Richmond. Yes I forgot about Ashford when I said 'all stations from Feltham'.

 

[RailWonderer]

It isn't ridiculous at all given the infrastructure available. Twyford to Paddington is a fully four track railway. Southampton to Waterloo is four track from Worting Junction. Wokingham to Waterloo is four track between Clapham Junction and Barnes (and a more substantial service runs in the suburban area since 2004).

If someone wants to pay for a few substantial stretches of four track railway faster services would be possible. I think I could place a fairly reasonable bet that that is never going to happen, ever.

The service has to be a compromise. From Staines to Waterloo, the service is quite competitive with other routes. Further out it isn't.


Nope, the trains, even if skip-stop, wouldn't be substantially quicker because they can't get past stopping services once they get east of Staines.

As the councillor points out, if you live on the outskirts of Wokingham, you drive to Fleet or Twyford for a faster train or you put up with the compromise on the route via Staines.

I think another point about the Reading to Waterloo line is just how indirect it is west of Staines. It runs slowly through Staines with the reverse curves and north south through Virginia Water.

I've taken it a few times from Virginia Water and 40-45 minutes is fine for a commute. I think Bracknell is the turning point where anything further out then that and you're better off backtracking to Reading to change for a GWR fast. For Ascot it makes no time difference if you backtrack at Reading or go direct. The whole service is a compromise really.

 

[MarkyT]

I've taken it a few times from Virginia Water and 40-45 minutes is fine for a commute. I think Bracknell is the turning point where anything further out then that and you're better off backtracking to Reading to change for a GWR fast. For Ascot it makes no time difference if you backtrack at Reading or go direct. The whole service is a compromise really.

Also depends on where you're going in London. Not every workplace is located in the square mile. If you're heading for parts of South or West London, then Waterloo or interchange at Richmond or Clapham Junction might be more convenient even from Reading, or could avoid a disliked tube Transfer for some customers. Elizabeth line changes the landscape no doubt.