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Cambridge South new station construction progress.

edwin_m

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The primary argument for EWR to come in from the south is to continue on to Ipswich as a through service. Services terminating at Cambridge aren't going to go down very well with the eastern section folk who have been campaigning for the line for decades, so I'm not sure how relevant the bays are to EWR. Presumably their existing conflicts are part of the reason for running services through to Cambridge North now?

(Apologies in advance if my information is somewhat out of date, I haven't been through Cambs for quite some time), but yes, the bays at Cambs used by the 8-car terminating services are unfortunately off to one side. Presumably given sufficient new through platforms they could be abolished, though, with terminating services using the central through platforms effectively as double-ended terminal platforms. No conflicts then. North of the station everything merges into 2 tracks anyway, so no conflicts there, and you only need a smaller single-track flyover at SBJ as well. Not sure how many platforms you would need at Cambridge station for that sort of arrangement though.

I recall when I used to commute through there musing if you could jack the listed building up and shift it away from the railway enough to convert the bays into through lines :) I doubt it would fare well given its age, but stranger things have happened at sea.

Having UDUD means you will get passengers at Cambridge South having to change platforms at short notice as their next train could depart from one of two platforms, so unless you designing it so they're waiting on an overbridge or being very strict with the timetabling so the same services always call at the same platforms, you will get all sorts of undesirable flows as people move between platforms trying to speed up their journeys.
Before Cambridge North I would have said that UDUD was the clear choice, because most of the trains approaching via Audley End would have terminated at Cambridge (central) and many of those approaching via the Royston line (on EWR or from KX) would continue beyond. So a couple of new eastern platforms, potentially single ended, could be built for the Liverpool Street terminators and most of the flows would be separated. Now those terminators go through to the North station it's probably a case of doing some operational simulation on the layout and future timetable, to work out whether the cost and disruption of a grade separation for UUDD is justified. As the timetable isn't known, it's too early to do that, hence also too early to make any costly assumptions about what the layout will be.

From Cambridge South, only passengers for Cambridge (central), Cambridge North and possibly Ely would have a choice of platforms if Cambridge South was UDUD with no trains routinely switching tracks south of it. So not many people will need to make short-notice platform dashes, and this happen when someone wants to catch one a few minute early rather than because the train they actually need to catch has been re-platformed. UUDD does however have the advantage that someone travelling say Stansted to Lynn or Ipswich wouldn't have to cross the bridge at either station.
 
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camflyer

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Even just make foot/cycle access from the eastern side so much easier that people are less inclined to drive/taxi to the station in the first place.

Indeed, that would help. In terms of the overall cost of EWR and Cambridge South, adding a eastern gateline bicycle racks and a new footbridge would be relatively minor for major benefits.

Cambridge City Council has plans to redevelop the Clifton Rd industrial estate area including the expansion of The Junction though much of the scope of what is possible is dependant on persuading the Royal Mail to relocate. It's hard to think that any of it would be viable without an eastern entrance.
 

Steve Harris

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Indeed, that would help. In terms of the overall cost of EWR and Cambridge South, adding a eastern gateline bicycle racks and a new footbridge would be relatively minor for major benefits.

Cambridge City Council has plans to redevelop the Clifton Rd industrial estate area including the expansion of The Junction though much of the scope of what is possible is dependant on persuading the Royal Mail to relocate. It's hard to think that any of it would be viable without an eastern entrance.
Jeez I must be old. I can remember the Royal Mail relocating to Clifton Road ! And CCC want them to move again!!

Cambridge City Council may have plans, but going on their past plans, it might take decades for them to come to fruition. One example being that the City Council decided that they wanted Cambridge Airport to move, that decision was made in 2000 and they still haven't moved yet !

Getting back OT, yes a eastern entrance would be helpful, but if CCC is involved I won't hold my breath though, for the reason pointed out above.

As for EWR using the bays, the original EWR plan was for it to eventually go east of Cambridge, so through platforms will be needed (and surprisingly enough, that is what they are proposing).
 

William3000

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It would be interesting to know where EWR thinks the replacement stabling sidings would be if the additional Eastern though platforms were built though.
The only realistic location for additional stabling as far as I can see is the triangle of land north of the Long Rd bridges between the mainline and the former Varsity line now busway. There is quite a sizeable area of land and it’s some distance from any houses.
 

Meerkat

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The only realistic location for additional stabling as far as I can see is the triangle of land north of the Long Rd bridges between the mainline and the former Varsity line now busway. There is quite a sizeable area of land and it’s some distance from any houses.
just rejig Chesterton Yard a bit. Terminate the train in Cambridge North and run it into sidings.
 

cle

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The primary argument for EWR to come in from the south is to continue on to Ipswich as a through service. Services terminating at Cambridge aren't going to go down very well with the eastern section folk who have been campaigning for the line for decades, so I'm not sure how relevant the bays are to EWR. Presumably their existing conflicts are part of the reason for running services through to Cambridge North now?

I'm not sure it is. The North route was never going to happen, for many reasons known here. Plus, Cambridge South is probably more of a draw than Ipswich. The eastern section folk lobbyists are not particularly important, and nor is the trundle to Ipswich really. It's a flow of 2 cars, 1tph and a nice to have. They'd rather get to Ely and Norwich but can't.

Let's be frank, this project is about Cambridge.

Also, there are due to be 4tph to Bedford/Oxford. But only 1tph to Ipswich is currently possible. It is said on here that the EWR must absorb that service (meaning it would become a stopper in some hours). Thus there would still be 3tph EWR terminating at Cambridge. They will be 3-4 cars, and approaching from Shepreth. The bays are the logical home for them. Of course any through trains would use other platforms, perhaps they can get sent to North which has some room for another platform (but two tracks only) - but the majority will terminate at Cambridge.
 

camflyer

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I'm not sure it is. The North route was never going to happen, for many reasons known here. Plus, Cambridge South is probably more of a draw than Ipswich. The eastern section folk lobbyists are not particularly important, and nor is the trundle to Ipswich really. It's a flow of 2 cars, 1tph and a nice to have. They'd rather get to Ely and Norwich but can't.

Let's be frank, this project is about Cambridge.

Also, there are due to be 4tph to Bedford/Oxford. But only 1tph to Ipswich is currently possible. It is said on here that the EWR must absorb that service (meaning it would become a stopper in some hours). Thus there would still be 3tph EWR terminating at Cambridge. They will be 3-4 cars, and approaching from Shepreth. The bays are the logical home for them. Of course any through trains would use other platforms, perhaps they can get sent to North which has some room for another platform (but two tracks only) - but the majority will terminate at Cambridge.

I wouldn't call myself a lobbyist but as someone living on the eastern stretch I'd be very disappointed if most of the EWR services terminated at Cambridge. I always understood that EWR was going to be in addition to existing services and that there was a commitment to 2 tph for Cambridge to Ipswich. A single train per hour really isn't suitable for a commuter service.
 

Ianno87

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I wouldn't call myself a lobbyist but as someone living on the eastern stretch I'd be very disappointed if most of the EWR services terminated at Cambridge. I always understood that EWR was going to be in addition to existing services and that there was a commitment to 2 tph for Cambridge to Ipswich. A single train per hour really isn't suitable for a commuter service.

Depends what level of upgrade is on the cards for the route east of Cambridge to permit more than the current 1tph.
 

cle

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Isn't the tunnel the biggest issue? Otherwise I'd think there would be capacity east of there to have a stopper, and a faster service (EWR) at least, per hour.

Maybe EWR could even head to Harwich on the odd hour before a key sailing - there used to be Cambridge and Peterborough Harwich services. But that's a bit speculative.
 

ac6000cw

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Isn't the tunnel the biggest issue?
I doubt it - it's only about 1 km long, and the running time allowance between Newmarket station and Chippenham Jct. is only about 4 minutes.

Running time between Chippenham Jct and Dullingham is about 10 minutes (including the stop at Newmarket) so that's maybe a bit tight for 2 tph in each direction.

It's more Dullingham to Coldham Lane Jct. (Cambridge) that's the bigger problem, as that is about 13 minutes.
 

camflyer

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I doubt it - it's only about 1 km long, and the running time allowance between Newmarket station and Chippenham Jct. is only about 4 minutes.

Running time between Chippenham Jct and Dullingham is about 10 minutes (including the stop at Newmarket) so that's maybe a bit tight for 2 tph in each direction.

It's more Dullingham to Coldham Lane Jct. (Cambridge) that's the bigger problem, as that is about 13 minutes.

I would have thought that there was plenty of space between Dullingham and Cherry Hinton/Fulbourn to double track though the line through Coldhams Common would probably have to stop as a single track
 

ac6000cw

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I would have thought that there was plenty of space between Dullingham and Cherry Hinton/Fulbourn to double track though the line through Coldhams Common would probably have to stop as a single track
You'd probably only need to push the end of Dullingham passing loop 2 miles further west to Six Mile Bottom to roughly balance the running times over the single line sections at each end (to about 10 minutes each). Beyond that extending it west to near Fulbourn and east to the outskirts of Newmarket would give more timetabling flexibility, but that's another 5 miles line rebuilding cost...

(Above comments/thoughts based on distances and running times from RTT)
 

Ianno87

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You'd probably only need to push the end of Dullingham passing loop 2 miles further west to Six Mile Bottom to roughly balance the running times over the single line sections at each end (to about 10 minutes each). Beyond that extending it west to near Fulbourn and east to the outskirts of Newmarket would give more timetabling flexibility, but that's another 5 miles line rebuilding cost...

(Above comments/thoughts based on distances and running times from RTT)

You'd want some level of flexibility built in - you wouldn't want to hardwire paths all the way to Oxford based on a specific crossing location at Dullingham.
 

tspaul26

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I would have thought that there was plenty of space between Dullingham and Cherry Hinton/Fulbourn to double track though the line through Coldhams Common would probably have to stop as a single track
Why would this stretch need to remain as single track? My understanding is that it was doubled in the past.
 

Ianno87

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Why would this stretch need to remain as single track? My understanding is that it was doubled in the past.

My hunch would be that doubling it to modern standards would be challenging in the space available, given the tightness of the curve.

The old double track curve pretty much butted right up against Coldham Lane depot, before converging.
 

William3000

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Well even if it had to have a single lead at the Coldham’s Lane junction, the entire route is capable of being dual tracked apart from possibly at Newmarket station and the tunnel.
 

ac6000cw

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My hunch would be that doubling it to modern standards would be challenging in the space available, given the tightness of the curve.

The old double track curve pretty much butted right up against Coldham Lane depot, before converging.
I think someone has said in the past that the old double-track curve was so tight on clearance that two trains of modern stock couldn't pass on it, and singling it allowed the curve to be eased a bit as well.

the entire route is capable of being dual tracked apart from possibly at Newmarket station and the tunnel.
In theory, yes, but what might actually get done depends on how much money is available in relation to meeting modern standards for earthworks, level crossings etc. when it gets upgraded.

Also, given that EWR seem to be keen to 'self contain' their railway as much as possible, why would they want to risk importing delays from half of East Anglia into their shiny new service by continuing onto a route littered with an increasing number of freight trains (east of Newmarket). Other than possibly to make the business case look better of course...
 

mwmbwls

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Also, given that EWR seem to be keen to 'self contain' their railway as much as possible, why would they want to risk importing delays from half of East Anglia into their shiny new service by continuing onto a route littered with an increasing number of freight trains (east of Newmarket). Other than possibly to make the business case look better of course...
"Littered with?" How close is Felixstowe to the maximum number of trains that the two terminals can load or unload in one day ? Current data suggests 72 arrivals and departures - so an average of one and half trains per hour, bearing in mind that freight trains operate on a 24/7 basis
Port of Felixstowe :: Rail services
Also bear in mind that the Oxfordshire County plan envisages an SRFI at Biscester and that the Covanta Energy from Waste Terminal near Bedford is future proofed in relation to rail deliveries = EWR will not be a purely passenger railway.
HZI awarded contract for 60 MWe Rookery South energy-from-waste plant | Bioenergy International
EWR trains may be first on the timetable graph but they will not be the totality of the graph - anywhere along their route.
 
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Class 170101

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My hunch would be that doubling it to modern standards would be challenging in the space available, given the tightness of the curve.
I'd agree no chance for the curve however probably could start somewhere around Cherry Hinton
Well even if it had to have a single lead at the Coldham’s Lane junction, the entire route is capable of being dual tracked apart from possibly at Newmarket station and the tunnel.
Single Lead at Coldham Lane Jn, single line for the curve and through Newmarket Tunnel I reckon.
I think someone has said in the past that the old double-track curve was so tight on clearance that two trains of modern stock couldn't pass on it, and singling it allowed the curve to be eased a bit as well.


In theory, yes, but what might actually get done depends on how much money is available in relation to meeting modern standards for earthworks, level crossings etc. when it gets upgraded.

Also, given that EWR seem to be keen to 'self contain' their railway as much as possible, why would they want to risk importing delays from half of East Anglia into their shiny new service by continuing onto a route littered with an increasing number of freight trains (east of Newmarket). Other than possibly to make the business case look better of course...
Remember that some of the councils to the east are invested in this project, including Ipswich.

Having UDUD means you will get passengers at Cambridge South having to change platforms at short notice as their next train could depart from one of two platforms, so unless you designing it so they're waiting on an overbridge or being very strict with the timetabling so the same services always call at the same platforms, you will get all sorts of undesirable flows as people move between platforms trying to speed up their journeys.
In respect of Cambridge South the platform problem doesn't make any difference whether it is UUDD or UDUD because they are building three platforms (2 side and one island) at Cambridge South rather than two islands. So people will always stand at the top of the stairs and run at the last minute.
 

edwin_m

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I'd agree no chance for the curve however probably could start somewhere around Cherry Hinton

Single Lead at Coldham Lane Jn, single line for the curve and through Newmarket Tunnel I reckon.

Remember that some of the councils to the east are invested in this project, including Ipswich.


In respect of Cambridge South the platform problem doesn't make any difference whether it is UUDD or UDUD because they are building three platforms (2 side and one island) at Cambridge South rather than two islands. So people will always stand at the top of the stairs and run at the last minute.
Last minute re-platforming is much more likely with UUDD than with UDUD.
 

Bald Rick

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So people will always stand at the top of the stairs and run at the last minute.

No they won’t. Occasionally perhaps. But not “always”.

It rarely happens at other 4 platform stations near junctions. No reason for it to happen here.
 

Ianno87

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Surely part of the risk assessment though?

To be weighed against the fact that, with the arrangement proposed, some passengers using the outer platforms would not have to use a staircase at all. With 2 islands, vertical circulation would be required for every passenger, which is riskier.
 

Bald Rick

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Objection lodged by Smarter Cambridge Transport.

Testing the definition of “Smarter”
 

bluenoxid

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Objection lodged by Smarter Cambridge Transport.

Testing the definition of “Smarter”

That was my initial thought when I saw it. However, I seem to recall a view that if you generally supported an improvement but felt something was insufficient you should oppose it as bonkers as that sounds. However, the ramifications and appearances are quite risky. I do hope that this is after exhaustive attempts to engage on this matter*

*not expecting it to be the case but ever hopeful, ever positive.
 

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