Camp Hill Line, Birmingham

[nw1]

No, as part of Midlands Rail hub. The Camp Hill stations are clearly an Andy Street thing.

So a "Tory trying to look good in a part of the country [probably] swinging away from them" type thing?

I have the same reservations on how profitable this service will be.
However the A435 running past these stations is notoriously jammed with traffic throughout the day and the journey time by train will be significantly quicker, quoted in the initial 2018 proposal at 15 minutes compared to 30 by bus.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I guess the frequency is less attractive than the bus though - while I don't know the specifics of the area and am just assuming "typical inner suburbia", I think a 15 min frequency would cut it. But I guess there aren't the paths.

That said, I can see the rationale in the form of "start with a basic service, and look to enhance later".

The Midlands Rail Hub proposals include a service from Moor Street to Hereford along the Camphill Line, but probably will not include stops until Bromsgrove.

Ah ok. I can see that a service which is the three Camp Hill stops, then fast to Bromsgrove and on towards Worcester "might work", as it wouldn't be too slow, overall, presumably.

 

[The Planner]

So a "Tory trying to look good in a part of the country [probably] swinging away from them" type thing?


OK, thanks for clarifying. I guess the frequency is less attractive than the bus though - while I don't know the specifics of the area and am just assuming "typical inner suburbia", I think a 15 min frequency would cut it. But I guess there aren't the paths.

That said, I can see the rationale in the form of "start with a basic service, and look to enhance later".

Ah ok. I can see that a service which is the three Camp Hill stops, then fast to Bromsgrove and on towards Worcester "might work", as it wouldn't be too slow, overall, presumably.

Also need to factor in generalised journey time as well. If its a 15 minute journey from Kings Heath to New St with a 30 minute frequency, then the GJT is going to be 45 minutes. Even if a bus took 30 minutes to do the same, the frequency will bring the GJT down to beat the train. Like you suggest, its going to need more tph to bring it level.

 

[trundlewagon]

So a "Tory trying to look good in a part of the country [probably] swinging away from them" type thing?

In fairness it was one of his campaign pledges the first time he was elected, in 2017. If construction gets delayed long enough, he'll be able to use it for a third campaign...!

As someone who lives in South Birmingham and will make use of it, I personally think it will be a very popular service just a shame it can only get 2tph for now.

As well as the demand from the stations into Birmingham (yes, there's a frequent bus service from KH and Moseley but the A435 is notoriously bad for traffic), Kings Heath and Moseley are popular destinations in their own right - a lot of bars, restaurants, etc - but are a bit of a pain to get to whether by car, bike or bus from the rest of South Birmingham. I think the interchange at Kings Norton from other places on the south X City could be quite popular.

Having a train service - even if only every 30 minutes - is a much better driver of modal shift than a bus too.

 

[zwk500]

In fairness it was one of his campaign pledges the first time he was elected, in 2017. If construction gets delayed long enough, he'll be able to use it for a third campaign...!

As someone who lives in South Birmingham and will make use of it, I personally think it will be a very popular service just a shame it can only get 2tph for now.

As well as the demand from the stations into Birmingham (yes, there's a frequent bus service from KH and Moseley but the A435 is notoriously bad for traffic), Kings Heath and Moseley are popular destinations in their own right - a lot of bars, restaurants, etc - but are a bit of a pain to get to whether by car, bike or bus from the rest of South Birmingham. I think the interchange at Kings Norton from other places on the south X City could be quite popular.

Having a train service - even if only every 30 minutes - is a much better driver of modal shift than a bus too.

Out of interest, as a local what sort of journeys do you expect most people will use it for? Is it people changing at New Street for onward connections, people heading into central Birmingham or people hopping between local stations?

 

[Techniquest]

Wouldn't diverting the Birmingham New Street to Hereford and vice-versa trains via the Camp Hill line, and stopping at the three new stations, significantly slow the service down? It's already a bit of a drag in places, extending the journey time wouldn't be terribly welcome. Nor would cutting out the stop at University, that's quite a popular one.

Moor Street to Worcester Shrub Hill via Camp Hill I could definitely get behind, that would make more sense and offer a same-station interchange from the Snow Hill lines. Cutting out the dreaded walk from Moor Street to New Street would certainly be a good move.

I'll agree with @trundlewagon that the service, despite being only 30 minutes, will drive a modal shift. The relevant part of the Midlands here, I am no expert on so I will happily take their expert knowledge. I haven't used the A435 in that part of the world, and from the sounds of it that's just as well, but I can well believe it being like a slow-moving traffic jam. I fully believe that the trains will make a big difference, once they're up and running, and they'll soon be well used.

 

[anthony263]

Think they suggested a extra 1tph to Hereford and Cardiff using the camp Hill lines and a new chord into Moor Street. The latter service could just be a extension of tfws Cardiff to Cheltenham service. Think tfw might needs more 231s or class 756s

 

[Class172]

As well as the demand from the stations into Birmingham (yes, there's a frequent bus service from KH and Moseley but the A435 is notoriously bad for traffic), Kings Heath and Moseley are popular destinations in their own right - a lot of bars, restaurants, etc - but are a bit of a pain to get to whether by car, bike or bus from the rest of South Birmingham. I think the interchange at Kings Norton from other places on the south X City could be quite popular.

Agreed, I used to live in South Birmingham and the A435 felt like a slog every time I had cause to use it. There's no chance of a by-pass (and I'm not suggesting there should be one) so hopefully there will be some modal shift—a lot of this traffic is quite local so I suspect a good number of passengers will use it just to get into the city centre. I went to the Hare & Hounds a couple of times in Kings Heath, and despite there being bus services in the area, it always felt like a pain to get to; I think in part due to the congestion in the area.

Wouldn't diverting the Birmingham New Street to Hereford and vice-versa trains via the Camp Hill line, and stopping at the three new stations, significantly slow the service down? It's already a bit of a drag in places, extending the journey time wouldn't be terribly welcome. Nor would cutting out the stop at University, that's quite a popular one.

The impression I got was that the existing New St-Hereford (via University) service will remain, but it would be supplemented by a second service using the Bordesley Chords from Moor St to Worcester.

 

[Gagravarr]

How often are the buses? Travel West Midlands seems to show a shed load to and from Kings Heath etc?

In theory, the 50 is up to every 4 minutes, most buses going to Druids Heath with the occasional one for Maypole. (Both of those destinations are beyond Kings Heath)

However, with traffic being pretty terrible for most of the route, it's much more common to have no buses for 10-15 minutes then have 3-4 turn up in a bunch. At peak times, you may not be able to get onto the first bus that comes, especially to/from Highgate Road with all the college students there

 

[Basil Jet]

Of course they could always drop the track & do some modifications to the tunnel as they have done on other lines.

There seems to be nothing on Moseley Tunnel apart from a minor garden centre, so turning it into a 135 metre cutting might be a cheap way to reduce maintenance.

 

[Baz2000]

Hi the traffic in South Birmingham is very Busy many a time traffic jams, pershore road and also in Kings heath, takes ages to get around local, more so now with a lot of side roads closed off, Buses can easy take 30 to 45 mins instead of 30 mins to the City Centre, So the Camp Hill Line will be of great value especially to the locals, i belive a survey was done a while back for each erea of the local rail stations going from memory, ours pineapple road about 17000 people in the local area and i belive around 20,000 in the kings heath area and around the same for moseley give or take , but certainly much better than the bus going into town, how ever one thing that would be very useful would be the local 27 bus NXWM should be timed to make a good rail/bus interchange eg say 6-8 mins , plus a taxi stand even for just 1 or 2 taxis at a time, the same for Kings heath, But from my point of view i think 6 car trains would be better than the 4 that they have said, after all the rail stations are being built for 6 car trains so maybe be an extra two cars once the line has been up and running a while, maybe some one might know if that would happen? and they have said will be 3 tph in the future , i think should do that in the next 1 or 2 years, after all the City Council wants more people to come into the City Centre by public trainport and this is centainly is one way of doing it.

 

[Quintus]

I'm planning to move to the Moseley/Kings Heath area within the next few months and I, for one, am looking forward to a rail link to the city centre. It's not an incredible distance but I'm betting it will be popular. Buses are regular but always rammed, even outside of peak times.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Nothing that hasn't already been said really. but I think it's clear that Kings Heath and Moseley have outgrown an already very generous bus provision, so to me the Camp Hill line can be nothing but a success.

Buses every 4 minutes... stuck in traffic... behind buses. Something's got to give!

 

[kevin_roche]

I used to catch the 50 to school. That was more than 50 years ago and I always wished there was a train. I'm retired now!

 

[crosscity]

I have read this thread with interest, as Kings Norton is my local station and has been for the last 40 years.
I think posters are getting a bit carried away with what will happen when the three new stations are ready to open on the Camp Hill line in the next few months.
Camp Hill line trains will not be using platform 2 anytime soon, if ever, as there will need to be serious work in altering the track layout, signalling and the Pershore Road South road bridge, along with the lesser work of re-instating the platforms and providing disabled access. Under the current layout it is not possible to get from the Camp Hill line to P2. A train can theoretically get to P2 by using the Lifford Curve and reversing near Bournville, but there'd be no point.
A service can be provided in the short- to medium term using Platform 4 as it has the only line through the station signalled for bi-directional use. The new service will use that platform, whether you're travelling from or to stations on the Camp Hill line. Trains will either be timetabled to reverse at Platform 4, or may be sent to the yard access line to reverse there.
Although i took this photo from P4 a while ago, the layout has not changed. 'Goliath' has got the green light to go 'up' the Camp Hill line.

31Jan2020. Kings Norton. Brush Class 57 57301 GOLIATH (Ex D1653). [P1100436] by Ray Honke, on Flickr

 

[The Planner]

I have read this thread with interest, as Kings Norton is my local station and has been for the last 40 years.
I think posters are getting a bit carried away with what will happen when the three new stations are ready to open on the Camp Hill line in the next few months.
Camp Hill line trains will not be using platform 2 anytime soon, if ever, as there will need to be serious work in altering the track layout, signalling and the Pershore Road South road bridge, along with the lesser work of re-instating the platforms and providing disabled access. Under the current layout it is not possible to get from the Camp Hill line to P2. A train can theoretically get to P2 by using the Lifford Curve and reversing near Bournville, but there'd be no point.
A service can be provided in the short- to medium term using Platform 4 as it has the only line through the station signalled for bi-directional use. The new service will use that platform, whether you're travelling from or to stations on the Camp Hill line. Trains will either be timetabled to reverse at Platform 4, or may be sent to the yard access line to reverse there.
Although i took this photo from P4 a while ago, the layout has not changed.

31Jan2020. Kings Norton. Brush Class 57 57301 GOLIATH (Ex D1653). [P1100436] by Ray Honke, on Flickr

Midland Rail Hub proposes to alter the layout at Kings Norton. Nothing needs doing to the road bridge. All proposed for around 2030. Clearly its known the new service has to reverse in the current Lonngbridge direction platform, hence the reason you cannot return to 6tph.

 

[crosscity]

Midland Rail Hub proposes to alter the layout at Kings Norton. Nothing needs doing to the road bridge. All proposed for around 2030. Clearly its known the new service has to reverse in the current Lonngbridge direction platform, hence the reason you cannot return to 6tph.

I understand that Kings Norton is mentioned as requiring changes to increase capacity, but I haven't seen any plans. Earlier posters were talking about Camp Hill trains accessing P2, or even a new bay platform. I'm wondering if there is a document that can be seen where that is proposed.

 

[Class172]

I understand that Kings Norton is mentioned as requiring changes to increase capacity, but I haven't seen any plans. Earlier posters were talking about Camp Hill trains accessing P2, or even a new bay platform. I'm wondering if there is a document that can be seen where that is proposed.

I've not come across the document until now but this publication appears to show a schematic on page 18 - https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/media/1910/midlands-connect-mrh-report-accessibilitychecked.pdf

 

[kevin_roche]

I've not come across the document until now but this publication appears to show a schematic on page 18 - https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/media/1910/midlands-connect-mrh-report-accessibilitychecked.pdf

That document also shows that trains will run into Moor Street not New Street as mentioned earlier. I thought that must be wrong but since I have not lived in the area since 1973 I wondered if something had changed.

 

[Class172]

Trains will still run into New St in the case of services that already run there. The document states that (taking the Hereford or Cardiff services for example) each will gain a 1tph service running to Moor St which is in addition to the existing, providing a total of 2tph under the Midlands Rail Hub scheme.

 

[kevin_roche]

Trains will still run into New St in the case of services that already run there. The document states that (taking the Hereford or Cardiff services for example) each will gain a 1tph service running to Moor St which is in addition to the existing, providing a total of 2tph under the Midlands Rail Hub scheme.

Does any passenger service run on the CampHill line at present? I thought it was freight only.

 

[jfollows]

Does any passenger service run on the CampHill line at present? I thought it was freight only.

Plenty, for example https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...4/0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=passenger&order=wtt for today's services (trains which are in passenger service which pass Lifford East Junction) - 15 services today.

 

[tomuk]

Trains will still run into New St in the case of services that already run there. The document states that (taking the Hereford or Cardiff services for example) each will gain a 1tph service running to Moor St which is in addition to the existing, providing a total of 2tph under the Midlands Rail Hub scheme.

And as a NR strategic report points out that is not very optimal as you have split your service over two terminals. Which one should a perspective passenger go to? The destinations should be grouped together Hereford or Cardiff from Moor Street or New Street respectively.

The turnback platform at KN also seems sub optimal you've gone to the expense of reactivating access to the island but services from the UP Gloucester to Camp Hill can't stop at KN. I know the electrification south of KN is the bare minimum but surely this could be sorted out.

 

[Class172]

And as a NR strategic report points out that is not very optimal as you have split your service over two terminals. Which one should a perspective passenger go to? The destinations should be grouped together Hereford or Cardiff from Moor Street or New Street respectively.

I would tend to agree, it would seem more logical to maintain consistency amongst a particular set of services. Passengers in Worcester and Droitwich Spa already have the option of New St via Bromsgrove and Moor St via Stourbridge; adding Moor St via Bromsgrove to the mix might get a tad confusing.

On the assumption that the document above is suggesting doubling the services to both Worcester/Hereford and Cardiff, alternating between New St and Moor St, I’d advocate consolidating each at one of these. My preference would be to send the 2tph Herefords to New St and the 2tph Cardiff services to Moor St, which retains the former’s link to University which is very well used. I am aware that this would potentially affect the through workings to Nottingham but I’m deliberately ignoring this for the sake of the argument.

The turnback platform at KN also seems sub optimal you've gone to the expense of reactivating access to the island but services from the UP Gloucester to Camp Hill can't stop at KN. I know the electrification south of KN is the bare minimum but surely this could be sorted out.

Would it not be possible to convert the bay to a through platform with a little extra track work, whilst retaining the through line that is planned?

 

[tomuk]

I would tend to agree, it would seem more logical to maintain consistency amongst a particular set of services. Passengers in Worcester and Droitwich Spa already have the option of New St via Bromsgrove and Moor St via Stourbridge; adding Moor St via Bromsgrove to the mix might get a tad confusing.

On the assumption that the document above is suggesting doubling the services to both Worcester/Hereford and Cardiff, alternating between New St and Moor St, I’d advocate consolidating each at one of these. My preference would be to send the 2tph Herefords to New St and the 2tph Cardiff services to Moor St, which retains the former’s link to University which is very well used. I am aware that this would potentially affect the through workings to Nottingham but I’m deliberately ignoring this for the sake of the argument.

Well there is both the potential eastern Bordesley Chord to allow through XC services from Cardiff to Nottingham plus if we get that far HS2 East with Curzon to Nottingham in 26? mins removes the need for through services.

Would it not be possible to convert the bay to a through platform with a little extra track work, whilst retaining the through line that is planned?

It could but why design it as a bay to begin with? You can turnback in through platforms as along as there is signalling capability. It doesn't seem a very though through plan. It seems to be a case of confining the scope of the Midlands Rail Hub work to meet a perceived budget ignoring potential better benefits.

 

[The Planner]

It could but why design it as a bay to begin with? You can turnback in through platforms as along as there is signalling capability. It doesn't seem a very though through plan. It seems to be a case of confining the scope of the Midlands Rail Hub work to meet a perceived budget ignoring potential better benefits.

Depends on the value of those benefits. If a Camp Hill service was sat in the through platform for a chunk of the hour to turn back then nothing can use the Camp Hill in that direction. Hence the only way it can work prior to MRH is the Cross City staying as it is.

 

[tomuk]

Depends on the value of those benefits. If a Camp Hill service was sat in the through platform for a chunk of the hour to turn back then nothing can use the Camp Hill in that direction. Hence the only way it can work prior to MRH is the Cross City staying as it is.

The pre MRH plan for 2024 is for the Camp Hill unit to use Platform 4 isn't it? The future layout is for MRH. But with the proposed future layout no Northbound services routed to the Camp Hill line can call at Kings Norton. Would it not be better to site a turnback siding south of the station in\at the OTP depot\old goods yard.

 

[Rich McLean]

Could one of these be an extension of a Shrewsbury stopper? Would give those stations connections to Wolverhampton.

 

[kevin_roche]

Plenty, for example https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...4/0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=passenger&order=wtt for today's services (trains which are in passenger service which pass Lifford East Junction) - 15 services today.

Gosh, Thank you I learnt something there. As a child, I lived in Kings Heath and don't remember ever seeing a passenger train on that line. Plenty of freight though. I guess a lot can change in 50 years.

 

[The Planner]

The pre MRH plan for 2024 is for the Camp Hill unit to use Platform 4 isn't it? The future layout is for MRH. But with the proposed future layout no Northbound services routed to the Camp Hill line can call at Kings Norton. Would it not be better to site a turnback siding south of the station in\at the OTP depot\old goods yard.

You are still blocking P4 to take the service into ECS, as well as getting it into the OTP depot and again to bring it back into P4 to start back. If you are looking at keeping the diagrams down, that may cause problems. I still cannot envisage what train service apart from the Camp Hill service would stop at Kings Norton.

Could one of these be an extension of a Shrewsbury stopper? Would give those stations connections to Wolverhampton.

That was one of the original proposals. Do these stations need a direct service? Its not as though New St to Wolves is lacking services.

 

[Rich McLean]

You are still blocking P4 to take the service into ECS, as well as getting it into the OTP depot and again to bring it back into P4 to start back. If you are looking at keeping the diagrams down, that may cause problems. I still cannot envisage what train service apart from the Camp Hill service would stop at Kings Norton.


That was one of the original proposals. Do these stations need a direct service? Its not as though New St to Wolves is lacking services.

They don't really as passengers can just change at new street. Was rather more thinking of reducing the amount of trains terminating there.