Can a train company ban me for complaining too much?

[Ekl]

I regularly board busy services, I normally complain and ask for a refund which I normally get. If I'm refused I ask for a deadlock letter so I can take it for the rail ombudsmen.

My basis of the complaint is that I struggled to board the service and I was packed onto the train and more carriages should be put on. I'm complaining pretty much everyday.

My concern is this is going to be flagged and I'll get banned for using this train company. I always buy a ticket and I only complain when there is an issue which happens to be pretty much everyday.

Any information would be much appreciated.

 

[185143]

As long as your complaints are fully true and valid, I don't see how they really can? As long as you aren't being abusive to staff or anything like that (be that either in person at the station/onboard, or over the phone) when there is an issue, there's no bylaw that regularly complaining would breach, as far as I can tell. For the record, I'm absolutely NOT accusing you of this. Just putting it out there as that's the main thing that would lead to someone being banned from a TOC

Given you're regularly drawing yourself to their attention, I'd recommend being extra sure your tickets for travel across the board are 100% valid. I don't know if they do random audits of Trainline accounts and the like (as opposed to after stopping a passenger) but if they do, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone with an axe to grind went for your account first.

 

[Ekl]

As long as your complaints are fully true and valid, I don't see how they really can? As long as you aren't being abusive to staff or anything like that (be that either in person at the station/onboard, or over the phone) when there is an issue, there's no bylaw that regularly complaining would breach, as far as I can tell. For the record, I'm absolutely NOT accusing you of this. Just putting it out there as that's the main thing that would lead to someone being banned from a TOC

Given you're regularly drawing yourself to their attention, I'd recommend being extra sure your tickets for travel across the board are 100% valid. I don't know if they do random audits of Trainline accounts and the like (as opposed to after stopping a passenger) but if they do, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone with an axe to grind went for your account first.

I was thinking this myself. I always complain via email. No one at the station knows me. My concern is that the company could block my account as I buy my tickets online?

 

[AlterEgo]

Eventually you will be labelled a vexatious complainant by the train company and they will refuse to handle your complaints. Expect them to speak to the Ombudsman as well to share this information. I used to work in customer relations and you would get a handful of people who would use this strategy for a while before using more effective means like pressuring their MP.

 

[Ghostbus]

My worry would be staff taking it upon themselves to seek revenge on you for being a daily annoyance.

 

[AlterEgo]

My worry would be staff taking it upon themselves to seek revenge on you for being a daily annoyance.

The front line staff on board or at the station won’t know. Or care.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Given how many services are now ‘busy’ I am wondering how many other Forum members routinely ask for a refund just because some people are standing.

I am quite surprised that the operator has been continually paying out to be honest. All of these refunds are at the expense of ‘the taxpayer’ after all.

 

[AM9]

Eventually you will be labelled a vexatious complainant by the train company and they will refuse to handle your complaints. Expect them to speak to the Ombudsman as well to share this information. I used to work in customer relations and you would get a handful of people who would use this strategy for a while before using more effective means like pressuring their MP.

Whether the Ombudsman takes any steps to ignore/object to complaints that reach the office depends on:
a) whether the complaints are upheld
and
b) whether the office has addressed any recurring issues and accepted that there is an ongoing problem
The TOC might refuse to deal with complaints but declaring the complainer's vexatious behaviouras justification might require a court action of harassment, which a TOC or the Ombudsman might prefer to avoid in the public eye.

 

[Ekl]

Eventually you will be labelled a vexatious complainant by the train company and they will refuse to handle your complaints. Expect them to speak to the Ombudsman as well to share this information. I used to work in customer relations and you would get a handful of people who would use this strategy for a while before using more effective means like pressuring their MP.

So how many complaints would a person have to put in before they refuse to deal with any complaints?

Also, if this happens what happens when the person complains about something 'genuine'? Or would this be ignored?

Would contacting my local MP do anything? For example an improvement of the services?

Given how many services are now ‘busy’ I am wondering how many other Forum members routinely ask for a refund just because some people are standing.

I am quite surprised that the operator has been continually paying out to be honest. All of these refunds are at the expense of ‘the taxpayer’ after all.

Have you heard of others complaining?

Whether the Ombudsman takes any steps to ignore/object to complaints that reach the office depends on:
a) whether the complaints are upheld
and
b) whether the office has addressed any recurring issues and accepted that there is an ongoing problem
The TOC might refuse to deal with complaints but declaring the complainer's vexatious behaviouras justification might require a court action of harassment, which a TOC or the Ombudsman might prefer to avoid in the public eye.

So it rarely goes to the ombudsman as I normally get a pay out. The ombudsmen normally agrees with me.


Given this, how likely is it to go further?

 

[gray1404]

Depending on which train company it is, their delay repay scheme may allow you to make a claim for a delay due to being unable to board if the train is too full

Often the automated system can reject such claims based on the fact the service was not delayed and it requires an appeal so a person will look at it and see its because the train was too full to board. This might be a more effective way of complaining. I try to remember to take a photo of the train being too full but this is not essential.

Have a look at the details of the delay repay scheme for the train company you travel with. Also have a look at their online form to see if there is a too full to board option.

Other strategies: will another part of the train be quieter. Walk along the platform before the train arrives. Can you travel slightly earlier or later. Is there another station nearby which would increase your chances of getting a seat.

Not having a seat on the train is not in itself a reason for getting a refund. Although if you have a reservation and it's not honoured and you have to stand you may be entitled to compensation. Does this train company offer seat reservations?

 

[Haywain]

Are you complaining because you have to stand, or because you can't actually get on the trains? And if it's because you have to stand why not just get a different train? As a London area commuter over the years, having to stand is regarded as an entirely routine matter over which no-one would think to complain.

 

[AM9]

Also, if this happens what happens when the person complains about something 'genuine'? Or would this be ignored?

So aren't your complaints so far geniune?

Would contacting my local MP do anything? For example an improvement of the services?

You would get an acknowlegement that you lodged a complaint but any further action from the MP would depend if it was an in-Government or opposition MP, whether that MP had any sway by just discussing the matter with the TOC and ultimately whether the MP is 'railway friendly'.

 

[AlterEgo]

So how many complaints would a person have to put in before they refuse to deal with any complaints?

How long is a piece of string?

Also, if this happens what happens when the person complains about something 'genuine'? Or would this be ignored?

If you complained about something different - like the behaviour of staff - it would be investigated of course. But all that will happen in the medium term is the company’s CRM system will simply flag you as a vexatious complainant (or similar) and you will get boilerplate responses and then a manager will probably write to you. Used to happen a few times a year at my old employer. Note that you can request to read the notes staff leave about you under GDPR.

Would contacting my local MP do anything? For example an improvement of the services?

It’s a more effective way of making change, because train companies don’t act based on the complaints of one person. It’s very likely they know this train is busy anyway.

Overall it looks to me like you’re mostly wasting your own time. Eventually, if you want to make real change you will need to realise customer relations have a very limited capacity to enact such change.

 

[skyhigh]

I regularly board busy services, I normally complain and ask for a refund which I normally get.

Just to be clear, you're boarding a busy train, then complaining and asking for a refund?

In your complaint, are you providing true information and making it clear that you were able to board the train? If so, that's fine, but as @AlterEgo says eventually you'll just be labelled as a vexatious complainant and they'll refuse to engage.

If however you are suggesting that you were unable to board/delayed and requesting a refund on that basis you are likely to find yourself on the sharp end of a prosecution case sooner or later.

Either way it is a possibility the TOC may investigate and if they feel your complaint has been 'enhanced' (i.e. the CCTV shows the train wasn't particularly busy or details you gave were untrue) you could find yourself in bother.

 

[island]

My concern is this is going to be flagged and I'll get banned for using this train company. I always buy a ticket and I only complain when there is an issue which happens to be pretty much everyday.

This is possible in theory in that they can say they are no longer willing to do business with you and you're banned from their trains and stations, but the chances of it happening (and being enforceable) in practice are very low.

As others mention, what is more likely to happen is that you will be labelled a vexatious complainant.

 

[Taunton]

I think some here are misunderstanding the term "vexatious", which is a legal concept, of someone complaining repeatedly FRIVOLOUSLY, WITHOUT SUFFICIENT GROUNDS, PURELY TO CAUSE ANNOYANCE. Given that the OP is straightforwardly complaining in writing about overcrowding, which is a fact, not being dealt with, it does not fall into this category.

There are a few who, in law, have been termed Vexatious Complainant, to such an extent that they are served a legal injunction where they have to get a judge's permission to even send a complaint. Government Ministers are periodically targets for this, in particular whoever happens to be the Home Secretary at the time. David Blunkett, when in this position, not only received multiple written complaints per day from one such, but they were also even addressed to his seeing-eye dog!

 

[skyhigh]

I think some here are misunderstanding the term "vexatious", which is a legal concept, of someone complaining repeatedly FRIVOLOUSLY, WITHOUT SUFFICIENT GROUNDS, PURELY TO CAUSE ANNOYANCE. Given that the OP is straightforwardly complaining in writing about overcrowding, which is a fact, not being dealt with, it does not fall into this category.

I'm not sure that's correct.

E.g. from the Office for National Statistics complaints policy

What is a vexatious complaint?
4. A vexatious complaint is one that is pursued, regardless of its merits, solely to harass,
annoy or subdue somebody; something that is unreasonable, without foundation, frivolous,
repetitive, burdensome or unwarranted.

Repeatedly complaining that a train is simply busy and wanting a full refund would seem to fit that description.

 

[Haywain]

I think some here are misunderstanding the term "vexatious", which is a legal concept,

Further to the comments by @skyhigh above, a business can choose to adopt the term for its own purposes other than the legal definition. It's a bit like referring to a financial penalty as a fine...

 

[Ekl]

Depending on which train company it is, their delay repay scheme may allow you to make a claim for a delay due to being unable to board if the train is too full

Often the automated system can reject such claims based on the fact the service was not delayed and it requires an appeal so a person will look at it and see its because the train was too full to board. This might be a more effective way of complaining. I try to remember to take a photo of the train being too full but this is not essential.

Have a look at the details of the delay repay scheme for the train company you travel with. Also have a look at their online form to see if there is a too full to board option.

Other strategies: will another part of the train be quieter. Walk along the platform before the train arrives. Can you travel slightly earlier or later. Is there another station nearby which would increase your chances of getting a seat.

Not having a seat on the train is not in itself a reason for getting a refund. Although if you have a reservation and it's not honoured and you have to stand you may be entitled to compensation. Does this train company offer seat reservations?

This is the issue, everyday passengers board the service and we're all crammed on. The conditions are just seemed as normal. Sometimes we can't board in which case we can do delay repay, in most cases it's the conditions on board.

Are you complaining because you have to stand, or because you can't actually get on the trains? And if it's because you have to stand why not just get a different train? As a London area commuter over the years, having to stand is regarded as an entirely routine matter over which no-one would think to complain.

Both reasons. If I get a different train I'll either get to my end destination too early or too late.

How long is a piece of string?


If you complained about something different - like the behaviour of staff - it would be investigated of course. But all that will happen in the medium term is the company’s CRM system will simply flag you as a vexatious complainant (or similar) and you will get boilerplate responses and then a manager will probably write to you. Used to happen a few times a year at my old employer. Note that you can request to read the notes staff leave about you under GDPR.


It’s a more effective way of making change, because train companies don’t act based on the complaints of one person. It’s very likely they know this train is busy anyway.

Overall it looks to me like you’re mostly wasting your own time. Eventually, if you want to make real change you will need to realise customer relations have a very limited capacity to enact such change.

If the manager writes to me, then what would happen? I've had managers involved and they usually give me a refund.

Just to be clear, you're boarding a busy train, then complaining and asking for a refund?

In your complaint, are you providing true information and making it clear that you were able to board the train? If so, that's fine, but as @AlterEgo says eventually you'll just be labelled as a vexatious complainant and they'll refuse to engage.

If however you are suggesting that you were unable to board/delayed and requesting a refund on that basis you are likely to find yourself on the sharp end of a prosecution case sooner or later.

Either way it is a possibility the TOC may investigate and if they feel your complaint has been 'enhanced' (i.e. the CCTV shows the train wasn't particularly busy or details you gave were untrue) you could find yourself in bother.

Yeah, I'm boarding a busy train then complaining. If there were more carriages then it wouldn't be busy, this is a daily occrurance.

All the information I give is always correct, the train company are aware that I boarded the train.

How likely is it that the CCTV would be checked?

I think some here are misunderstanding the term "vexatious", which is a legal concept, of someone complaining repeatedly FRIVOLOUSLY, WITHOUT SUFFICIENT GROUNDS, PURELY TO CAUSE ANNOYANCE. Given that the OP is straightforwardly complaining in writing about overcrowding, which is a fact, not being dealt with, it does not fall into this category.

There are a few who, in law, have been termed Vexatious Complainant, to such an extent that they are served a legal injunction where they have to get a judge's permission to even send a complaint. Government Ministers are periodically targets for this, in particular whoever happens to be the Home Secretary at the time. David Blunkett, when in this position, not only received multiple written complaints per day from one such, but they were also even addressed to his seeing-eye dog!

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. I always give accurate information and anything I say can be checked.

In which case do you feel the train company can't do anything?

 

[Carntyne]

Only thing perplexing is the TOC refunding you because the train was busy. Doesn't feel like a valid reason to refund, if you've still been able to make your journey.

Trains are meant to be busy. You're not guaranteed a seat.

 

[Ekl]

Only thing perplexing is the TOC refunding you because the train was busy. Doesn't feel like a valid reason to refund, if you've still been able to make your journey.

Trains are meant to be busy. You're not guaranteed a seat.

When I say busy, I mean every single aisle is full as well as everyday doorway. No one can move. If one passenger wants to get off, people have to get off the train just to let off passengers. People physically can't breath and people at the next stations can't get on. People are going into toilets for extra room.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Without giving too much away, is it possible for the Original Poster (OP), to give an idea of which operator is involved?

I realise that there is no obligation for ‘ordinary passengers’ to understand the intricacies of railway working but in very many cases trains cannot be made any longer because of things like platform lengths and simply all available trains of a particular type being in use. It is not possible to couple two Thameslink trains together, for example.

Basically ‘nothing is going to happen’ without massive investment - HS2, Crossrail 2, new TransPennine line on some stretches, etc..

 

[jon0844]

Many trains have passenger counters and other sensors to identify busy trains and even the parts of a train that get the most overcrowded. They may be consulting this information to validate your complaints, so I'd absolutely be sure that every complaint has merit and there weren't quieter coaches on the train you could have used.

I'm sure they're also waiting to catch you out with a claim against a train that wasn't overcrowded, which I'm sure you've never done or intend to.

 

[Carntyne]

When I say busy, I mean every single aisle is full as well as everyday doorway. No one can move. If one passenger wants to get off, people have to get off the train just to let off passengers. People physically can't breath and people at the next stations can't get on. People are going into toilets for extra room.

So you did manage to travel then?

If people 'physically couldn't breathe', then there would be ambulances called. If it's as bad as you said, I don't know why you would voluntarily put yourself in a position where you couldn't breathe.

 

[Haywain]

People physically can't breath

That's obviously not true.

 

[island]

There are a few who, in law, have been termed Vexatious Complainant, to such an extent that they are served a legal injunction where they have to get a judge's permission to even send a complaint. Government Ministers are periodically targets for this, in particular whoever happens to be the Home Secretary at the time. David Blunkett, when in this position, not only received multiple written complaints per day from one such, but they were also even addressed to his seeing-eye dog!

"Vexatious litigant" is a legal term and is quite different to "vexatious complainant" which is not.

 

[skyhigh]

How likely is it that the CCTV would be checked?

If you're a frequent complainant, pretty high. Depending on the stock a lot now has CCTV that can be remotely viewed instantly, nobody has to go and download it.

But if your complaints are genuine, there's no issue with them checking the CCTV? In fact, you'd welcome it as it would be evidence to support your claims?

Without giving too much away, is it possible for the Original Poster (OP), to give an idea of which operator is involved?

They have their location set as Leeds, so at a guess it's one of TPE, Northern, XC or LNER. Northern and XC have plenty of problems with capacity, so I'd suggest it's more likely to be one of those two.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Is there any requirement for a business to engage with you, as long as they aren't refusing to engage with you due to a protected characteristic?

 

[island]

Is there any requirement for a business to engage with you, as long as they aren't refusing to engage with you due to a protected characteristic?

Generally not.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I don't know how true, but it may be helpful, if this does become an escalated dispute involving the ombudsman, to have a comprehensive library of pictures clearly showing the state of the train on a good number of such occasions.