Can Alstom recover UK rolling stock market share?

[Topgun333]

By my reckoning Alstom has had a bad 10 years. Deals it has won have been tarnished by quality issues on delivery (such as 334s and 458s) and it has failed to match the numbers of orders won by Siemens, Bombardier and more recently Hitachi.

What does Alstom need to do to get back in the game ahead of the massive HS2 contract?

 

[Nym]

There's also the massive "New Tube for London" (Deep Tube Programme) trains coming up.

It does seem that Alstom has lost interest in the UK rail market.

 

[ExRes]

They've had more than a bad 10 years, go back to the 67, 458, 460 and 180 as well, I doubt anyone would be interested in anything they might put on the market with a CV like that

 

[RichmondCommu]

What does Alstom need to do to get back in the game ahead of the massive HS2 contract?

They need to persuade the DfT to order more Pendolinos. The MML would be a good start.

 

[cjmillsnun]

But then again they also have the 390 on their CV, and that, as much as I hate the units personally, is something they can justifiably be proud of.

 

[NotATrainspott]

They need to persuade the DfT to order more Pendolinos. The MML would be a good start.

No chance. The WCML needed tilt to get fast times to places which have air competition. MML InterCity ends at Sheffield and it's already the fastest way to get to London with diesel trains and limited 125mph running. Once electrified, it will be even faster, and faster still for passengers when HS2 gets up and running. The only sensible rolling stock for the MML in the long term is the electric-only form of what the InterCity Express Programme set out to procure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They need to persuade the DfT to order more Pendolinos. The MML would be a good start.

Alstom thought they had a order in the bag from the ICWC operator (whoever won the franchise), plus potentially more for Hull Trains and Alliance.
Even ICEC was a possibility before the DfT bypassed the TOCs and ordered more IEPs.
Lack of orders in this case is not because of any quality problems, it's just that the cycle of events has taken away these opportunities.

MML could be promising (tilt or no tilt) if the TOC gets to choose, but non-Bombardier products on the Midland is another psychological problem to be overcome.

It's difficult to judge where the next sizeable order will come from, unless the DfT allows ICWC to expand its fleet at the 2017 change.
But then HS2 is putting planning blight on all things WCML now.

 

[edwin_m]

To be fair to Alstom the 458s regularly topped the reliability statistics until people started messing around with them, and their tube stock has done pretty well I think. They also have their Citadis trams running in Nottingham.

I don't see much demand for plain vanilla 100mph commuter EMUs once current orders are delivered, as there will be plenty of serviceable ones cascaded. But in the next few years several routes will need AC units with 23m bodyshells, top speed greater than 100mph and mostly with interiors suitable for medium distances (Midland, Transpennine, London-Norwich, possibly GW suburban, Aberdeen?). However the three main players already have products on offer for this market.

 

[DownSouth]

Alstom will surely be taking Bombardier's place as one of the big three (alongside the Hitachi-Kawasaki consortium and Siemens) when it comes to the HS2 bidding, both with a second-generation AGV for the TSI order and an AGV-Pendolino hybrid for the UK gauge order.

Alstom would have had a decent shot at both Thameslink and Crossrail if they had proposed a more conventional variant of the X'Trapolis family (like an updated version of the X'Trapolis 100 used in Melbourne) instead of the wacky version with tram-style supported coach ends.

 

[Mikey C]

Are any of the current Alstom maintenance locations capable of being used for some basic screwdriver assembly work (to go with traction motor work at Preston) as a political carrot, as the HS2 order will be such a high profile one?

 

[northwichcat]

They are coming up with a new 125mph EMU to offer to bidders of the next TPE franchise and one bidder is rumoured to be very interested.

 

[HSTEd]

Alstom will surely be taking Bombardier's place as one of the big three (alongside the Hitachi-Kawasaki consortium and Siemens) when it comes to the HS2 bidding, both with a second-generation AGV for the TSI order and an AGV-Pendolino hybrid for the UK gauge order.

Although it is not considered sexy at the moment, there is also whatever derivative of the TGV Duplex they will be building at that particular time - be it the 2N2 or the fabled double deck AGV.

Remember that the AGV has sold about a dozen sets to one operator - TGV Duplex continues to sell both in France and abroad.

instead of the wacky version with tram-style supported coach ends.

So you mean TGV/AGV style supported coach ends

 

[asylumxl]

So you mean TGV/AGV style supported coach ends

Those wacky things that those crazy European countries have embraced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By my reckoning Alstom has had a bad 10 years. Deals it has won have been tarnished by quality issues on delivery (such as 334s and 458s) and it has failed to match the numbers of orders won by Siemens, Bombardier and more recently Hitachi.

What does Alstom need to do to get back in the game ahead of the massive HS2 contract?

Build decent trains for the right price. Every train they have built for the UK market has been markedly inferior to Bombardier and/or Siemens' products, either in terms of build quality, reliability or other factors.

The interiors are nice, but that can be specified of any stock - the interiors of Class 185s are nice too.

The Pendolino seems to be the one exception to the Alstom quality issues - so much so that I forgot they were Alstom-built - but they really are a premium product.

Neil

 

[Mikey C]

Build decent trains for the right price. Every train they have built for the UK market has been markedly inferior to Bombardier and/or Siemens' products, either in terms of build quality, reliability or other factors.

The interiors are nice, but that can be specified of any stock - the interiors of Class 185s are nice too.

The Pendolino seems to be the one exception to the Alstom quality issues - so much so that I forgot they were Alstom-built - but they really are a premium product.

Neil

But then the 1995 Tube stock I go to work on (and Alstom maintain) is very good and far superior to the terrible BREL 1992 stock. It was built in the late 90s, so around the same time as the ill fated Coradias.

 

[cjmillsnun]

To be fair to Alstom the 458s regularly topped the reliability statistics until people started messing around with them, and their tube stock has done pretty well I think. They also have their Citadis trams running in Nottingham.

I don't see much demand for plain vanilla 100mph commuter EMUs once current orders are delivered, as there will be plenty of serviceable ones cascaded. But in the next few years several routes will need AC units with 23m bodyshells, top speed greater than 100mph and mostly with interiors suitable for medium distances (Midland, Transpennine, London-Norwich, possibly GW suburban, Aberdeen?). However the three main players already have products on offer for this market.

The 458s problem was their introduction, same with the 8GATs. After the maintenance crews got used to their foibles, reliability improved. The 5JOPS will be OK once the teething problems are ironed out.

EDIT: agree with the below. It is the maintenance fitters who made these units reliable.

 

[arty762]

To be fair to Alstom the 458s regularly topped the reliability statistics until people started messing around with them, and their tube stock has done pretty well I think. They also have their Citadis trams running in Nottingham.

I don't see much demand for plain vanilla 100mph commuter EMUs once current orders are delivered, as there will be plenty of serviceable ones cascaded. But in the next few years several routes will need AC units with 23m bodyshells, top speed greater than 100mph and mostly with interiors suitable for medium distances (Midland, Transpennine, London-Norwich, possibly GW suburban, Aberdeen?). However the three main players already have products on offer for this market.

The 458's were total crap from the day they left the factory , it is the Wimbledon fitters that tinkered with them and made them the best performing units in the country, since then Alstom have also made the 458/5 crap , and again it will be the Wimbledon fitters that get them running right.

 

[dgl]

And anyone who uses pendolinos to say they can make good things, they are a FIAT design :grin:

 

[Voyager 2093]

To say Alstom build inferior products to Bombardier, is like saying, Hitler was a better leader than Saddam Hussien and vice versa. They both have their fair share of bad designs but to be honest, I'd rather be sat on a Class 180 as opposed to a Class 220 or a Class 458/5 as opposed to a Class 377/6.

 

[HSTEd]

180s have serious vibration issues in first class though.
And a really dodgy interior where the struts for the tables block the power sockets?
Who designed that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

180s have serious vibration issues in first class though.
And a really dodgy interior where the struts for the tables block the power sockets?
Who designed that?

And the stupid seating design whereby the seats bolt only to the floor rather than to the side wall. This has two problems - one that the outer strut goes where your feet go if you're in the window seat, and the other that because the frame is not strong enough the seats move from side to side slightly, which added to the appalling ride can cause travel sickness.

They *should* have been excellent units, but they turned out a bit rubbish, IMO.

On similar lines I have concerns about the proposed cantilever seats on the new Hitachi design. I expect these will start to drop over time. The best, tried and trusted approach is one strut roughly under the middle of the aisle seat, and the window seat bolted to a track on the sidewall, IMO.

Neil

 

[Grumpy]

They are coming up with a new 125mph EMU to offer to bidders of the next TPE franchise and one bidder is rumoured to be very interested.

Well that's one bidder unlikely to win the franchise. The proportion of TPE's train mileage run on track capable of 100mph+ must be tiny.

Alstom need to get together with CAF. Provide a 333 clone, stick an extra carriage in to make 5 cars (give this carriage 2+2 seating for the longer distance passengers to reserve), stick Pendolino traction under the floor with lots of HP for acceleration/hillclimbing.
There you have it- approx. 430 seats in a 5 car pocket rocket..

 

[edwin_m]

Well that's one bidder unlikely to win the franchise. The proportion of TPE's train mileage run on track capable of 100mph+ must be tiny.

Depends how much more expensive a 125mph unit is than a slower one - maybe less than people think? Getting/keeping TPE on the fast lines between York and Northallerton might make quite a difference to freight capacity.

 

[LLivery]

To say Alstom build inferior products to Bombardier, is like saying, Hitler was a better leader than Saddam Hussien and vice versa. They both have their fair share of bad designs but to be honest, I'd rather be sat on a Class 180 as opposed to a Class 220 or a Class 458/5 as opposed to a Class 377/6.

I feel Bombardier have a far better record than Alstom hands down. The new 377s and 387s are not fantastic but they are certainly better than any Alstom built unit. The 458/5 were totally rebuilt to SWTs standards (i.e to look like a Siemens Desiro). The white 458s are bloody awful inside - I'd rather be on a 455 to Reading. I'd agree with the 180 vs 220s however, I personally think the 222s are very good units.

 

[HSTEd]

Depends how much more expensive a 125mph unit is than a slower one - maybe less than people think? Getting/keeping TPE on the fast lines between York and Northallerton might make quite a difference to freight capacity.

Now if only we could get fixed formation 7-car 125mph units on TPE... but we all know that won't happen - we will get that many units but they will be four car and we will have to deal with chronic overcrowding all the time.

 

[LLivery]

I don't see Alstom ever getting a big order again in the UK. Like said before their CV is awful, only the Pendos are to be proud of, even though I can't stand them. Hitchai and Bombardier building trains in England will be far more kinder to the public image, which lets be honest, the rail network desperately needs at the moment. Plus Siemens trains are very well built and I've become fond of. The only Alstom trains which are good are the tube stock. It might sound harsh but with their rubbish trains and W Heath not reopening to construction, I couldn't care less if they never built a train for the UK again.

 

[WatcherZero]

What were the last plants in the UK before Bombardier Derby became the only builder, Alstom Washwood Heath and the 390's? When did the other plants close?

 

[LLivery]

What were the last plants in the UK before Bombardier Derby became the only builder, Alstom Washwood Heath and the 390's? When did the other plants close?

York closed for a second time in 2002 I think...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

York closed for a second time in 2002 I think...

Hunslet (of Hunslet!) closed shortly after the 323s were finished, after BR decided on refurbished 308s as a more affordable fleet for Airedale and Wharfedale than a follow-on of 323s.

 

[WatcherZero]

Glasgow locomotives closed in the early 60's after their post steam products were a pile of crap I think? At one time was the largest manufacturer in the world.