Can and will train seats become comfortable again?

[Krokodil]

I was in a GWR 158 earlier. It was quite a welcome change not to be sitting bolt upright.

 

[Mike1]

Lumo’s class 803 seats are fine. The LNER ones though are no good for a London to Edinburgh trip! Id rather they use the intercity 225 instead!

 

[AdamWW]

Lumo’s class 803 seats are fine. The LNER ones though are no good for a London to Edinburgh trip! Id rather they use the intercity 225 instead!

I used to find the later Mk 4 seats gave me a numb bottom after a few hours. The first train seats I found that with.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I used to find the later Mk 4 seats gave me a numb bottom after a few hours. The first train seats I found that with.

Do you find the base of the seat a bit short? That’s one area I find them worse than 80Xs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. I’d put 8XX seats above IC70s.

The seats in class 360s are probably the most comfortable “commuter” type seats I’ve ever sat on - @Bletchleyite can perhaps confirm what type they are?

Grammer E3000. The 2+2 variant in the 350/1s very rarely seems to draw complaints. Basic but I like them.

I used to find the later Mk 4 seats gave me a numb bottom after a few hours. The first train seats I found that with.

The ones GNER fitted were terrible, a single piece cushion was fitted which meant the base sloped forward. Did my back in. Fortunately VTEC replaced them with two piece cushions that are much better.

 

[GoneSouth]

Are fire regulations really the reason? Plane seats are softer then the 700 and IET seats. The last place you want flammable seats is on a plane so I'd expect the standard to be at least as strict as that which applies to train seats.

I think money is the real reason, everything done to the cheapest possible price. Even bus seats are often more comfortable than IET seats these days. I’ve spent plenty of time on local bus seats which are a much better shape than a lot of train seats, and National Express coaches are also pretty good. Having recline on plane seats obviously makes a lot of difference to how comfy the seat is, you’re never going to get that on standard class train seat (or maybe you can, please share if you know any).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are fire regulations really the reason? Plane seats are softer then the 700 and IET seats. The last place you want flammable seats is on a plane so I'd expect the standard to be at least as strict as that which applies to train seats.

Money is the reason. Thicker fire retardant foam costs more.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

IC70s are among the worst seats ever fitted to long distance stock. My opinion, just as your gushing praise of something l hate with a passion, is yours.

Agreed. I’d put 8XX seats above IC70s.

Yes, awful seats I always thought. EMTs always were the worst, as they somehow seemed even smaller than the same ones on GA and Chiltern, though that might have been in my head.

 

[billio]

I think money is the real reason, everything done to the cheapest possible price. Even bus seats are often more comfortable than IET seats these days. I’ve spent plenty of time on local bus seats which are a much better shape than a lot of train seats, and National Express coaches are also pretty good. Having recline on plane seats obviously makes a lot of difference to how comfy the seat is, you’re never going to get that on standard class train seat (or maybe you can, please share if you know any).

I agree with the point about bus seats. The seats on the Transdev Coastliner service (in Yorkshire) are much better than most of the train seats I travel on. The same is true for other Transdev 'premium' bus services, for example Leeds to Ripon. I suppose the problem with the design is they don't meet the crash-worthiness required for a train.

 

[zwk500]

I agree with the point about bus seats. The seats on the Transdev Coastliner service (in Yorkshire) are much better than most of the train seats I travel on. The same is true for other Transdev 'premium' bus services, for example Leeds to Ripon. I suppose the problem with the design is they don't meet the crash-worthiness required for a train.

It's perfectly possible to have reasonably comfortable train seats though, even without breaking the bank. I've been to Italy and Netherlands recently and the newer trains I got there had perfectly comfortable seats for a 1-2.5hr journey. Given they obviously need to meet the EU standards something very similar should be acceptable in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, awful seats I always thought. EMTs always were the worst, as they somehow seemed even smaller than the same ones on GA and Chiltern, though that might have been in my head.

The width will have been the same, but cushion thickness will have affected legroom.

It's perfectly possible to have reasonably comfortable train seats though, even without breaking the bank. I've been to Italy and Netherlands recently and the newer trains I got there had perfectly comfortable seats for a 1-2.5hr journey. Given they obviously need to meet the EU standards something very similar should be acceptable in the UK.

Such seats exist - Grammer's E3000 on the Desiros, for example, or the TfW version of the Sophia. (I find both very similar to be honest).

 

[JonathanH]

I've been to Italy and Netherlands recently and the newer trains I got there had perfectly comfortable seats for a 1-2.5hr journey.

Some people might consider that we have perfectly comfortable seats for a 1-2.5hr journey already. Is is a very subjective matter.

 

[AM9]

Some people might consider that we have perfectly comfortable seats for a 1-2.5hr journey already. Is is a very subjective matter.

Yup, managed to stay seated from Paddington to St Erth more than once. Just under 5 hours. Kings Cross to York was OK as well. Much more comfortable than Liverpool St to Norwich in a saggy MK111, or even St Albans to Carlisle in a refurbed MK1 FO!

 

[GoneSouth]

Some people might consider that we have perfectly comfortable seats for a 1-2.5hr journey already. Is is a very subjective matter.

But definitely not for a 5 hour journey. Paddington to Penzance probably not very pleasant these days

 

[AM9]

But definitely not for a 5 hour journey. Paddington to Penzance probably not very pleasant these days

See post #133 above, I managed OK, - only about 4h55m actually.

 

[Krokodil]

I had an 802 from Paddington to Bristol the other day. My backside ached by the time I got there and I was glad to change for a 158. Those seats are better than the ones the 800s had (at least to begin with, I'm not sure if they've changed), if only because they are using some kind of moquette instead of flat cloth.

 

[superalbs]

I think money is the real reason, everything done to the cheapest possible price. Even bus seats are often more comfortable than IET seats these days. I’ve spent plenty of time on local bus seats which are a much better shape than a lot of train seats, and National Express coaches are also pretty good. Having recline on plane seats obviously makes a lot of difference to how comfy the seat is, you’re never going to get that on standard class train seat (or maybe you can, please share if you know any).

Lots of European long-distance trains and even some commuter trains have recline in second class. As for the UK, the Eurostar has it.

It's fairly reasonable to expect that, but of course we go for the cheapest and nastiest junk on the market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I'm happy we don't. Recline either eats the legroom of people behind or is very limited of the "base slides forward into your own legroom" type. Short haul planes are better without it too.

 

[superalbs]

TBH I'm happy we don't. Recline either eats the legroom of people behind or is very limited of the "base slides forward into your own legroom" type. Short haul planes are better without it too.

What's wrong with allowing people to reduce their own legroom to have a more comfortable posture? Confused as to why you would oppose people having a choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's wrong with allowing people to reduce their own legroom to have a more comfortable posture? Confused as to why you would oppose people having a choice.

Not a lot, but the amount of recline it gives you is small, it means a thicker back so less overall legroom, and often they break meaning you end up stuck reclined.

I'd rather a lower fare than money be spent on that, to be honest.

 

[superalbs]

Not a lot, but the amount of recline it gives you is small, it means a thicker back so less overall legroom, and often they break meaning you end up stuck reclined.

I'd rather a lower fare than money be spent on that, to be honest.

Been on plenty of narrow back seats that offer a good amount of recline. I'd much rather we gave people the choice.

Even the horrible 800 seats are a lot better with recline (see 387s).

 

[fandroid]

A problem with 800 seats is that the seat bases have already collapsed due to use, over a fairly short timeframe. Lumps and bumps beneath you are no fun at all

 

[Swanley 59]

I was on a Northern Class 156 (probably 156417) yesterday that had very comfortable seats, although they did lack the usual folding tray. Legroom was generous too, which isn't always the case on Northern 156s.

 

[Mogz]

Can someone explain how springs are a fire hazard? Older stock seemed to have well sprung seats.

 

[Krokodil]

Can someone explain how springs are a fire hazard? Older stock seemed to have well sprung seats.

The voids in the sprung cushions provide a fire with plenty of oxygen to grow quickly. Not an issue with foam, since that's denser.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The voids in the sprung cushions provide a fire with plenty of oxygen to grow quickly. Not an issue with foam, since that's denser.

That seems tenuous. The fabric/foam itself is flame retardent, and how exactly would a fire start inside an enclosed cushion?

Personally I'd rather foam, anyway, it's more comfortable. My bed is foam, my armchairs are foam, my desk chair is foam. Who has sprung sofas these days? It just needs to be thick enough (yes, you, Fainsa).

 

[Wolfie]

The voids in the sprung cushions provide a fire with plenty of oxygen to grow quickly. Not an issue with foam, since that's denser.

Horse hair is highly flammable too....

 

[Krokodil]

That seems tenuous. The fabric/foam itself is flame retardent, and how exactly would a fire start inside an enclosed cushion?

That wouldn't have been the case in those days, the stuffing was horse hair, after all.

The fire would be one that resulted from an accident. It doesn't need to start inside the cushion to use it as fuel. A fire could engulf a Mk1 very quickly, that's why they had an intermediate set of doors, to provide additional exits.

 

[SamCam]

Do we know how much money was saved by speccing Fainsa Sophia for the IET programme? How much more would it have cost per carriage/per unit to go for even one of Fainsa's own intercity-rated products (e.g. the Nordic Star Rail). I'm assuming here that the total number of seats could have been kept the same etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we know how much money was saved by speccing Fainsa Sophia for the IET programme? How much more would it have cost per carriage/per unit to go for even one of Fainsa's own intercity-rated products (e.g. the Nordic Star Rail). I'm assuming here that the total number of seats could have been kept the same etc.

Even the Sophia would have been fine if they hadn't specced such an awful base cushion. TfW's version is fine, one of the better seats I've come across.

This will have been a huge false economy as they're going to need replacing pretty soon, most of the original ones have totally collapsed.