Can and will train seats become comfortable again?

[physics34]

The IC70 was a terrible seat. Narrow, fixed armrests and thick back so poor legroom.

The fixed armrests were a real problem. Apart from that they seemed good. Seat base sprung amd comfortable. A modified version with a thinner back could be produced.

Class 8xx stock seats are not good enough for long journeys. Too hard and no lumber support.

Also new pendolino seats and class 745 seats. Thin base and no lumber support.

It womt happen but id suggest purchasing new seats for a 8xx stock... and put the current seats in Thameslink 700s. TL 700 seats can go into metro stock

 

[SamCam]

Even the Sophia would have been fine if they hadn't specced such an awful base cushion. TfW's version is fine, one of the better seats I've come across.

This will have been a huge false economy as they're going to need replacing pretty soon, most of the original ones have totally collapsed.

I agree (though I also find the back support of the Sophia inadequate). Even if the price difference was astronomical it will likely turn out to have been a false economy, but I just wonder what it was at the time.

Also new pendolino seats and class 745 seats. Thin base and no lumber support.

I actually find both of those ok (and of course the 745 seats are also on the 755s). They're not massively padded but the shape is ok. Given the fire regs these days making sprung cushions a thing of the past, I think the pendolino seats are close to the best we're likely to see any time soon.

 

[greyman42]

Given the fire regs these days making sprung cushions a thing of the past,

Springs will not combust or burn fiercely.

 

[Neptune]

Springs will not combust or burn fiercely.

A sprung base is more than just springs though.

 

[greyman42]

A sprung base is more than just springs though.

That's vague, what are you getting at?

 

[superalbs]

Even the Sophia would have been fine if they hadn't specced such an awful base cushion. TfW's version is fine, one of the better seats I've come across.

This will have been a huge false economy as they're going to need replacing pretty soon, most of the original ones have totally collapsed.

No doubt if they bother replacing them, it will be with more of the same rubbish cushions...

 

[Neptune]

That's vague, what are you getting at?

You intimated that a sprung base is just springs. A sprung base is also full of a flammable material to make the base soft. If it was just springs it would be the most uncomfortable seat ever.

 

[Krokodil]

You intimated that a sprung base is just springs. A sprung base is also full of a flammable material to make the base soft. If it was just springs it would be the most uncomfortable seat ever.

More importantly, the springs create voids which supply plenty of oxygen for the material to burn with.

 

[gabrielhj07]

From interest, when was the last time there was a fire in a carriage fuelled by seat material?

 

[AM9]

From interest, when was the last time there was a fire in a carriage fuelled by seat material?

Before the introduction of low flammability seat mateirals, hollow sprung seats would quickly peppetuate a fire started adjacent to them.

 

[physics34]

More importantly, the springs create voids which supply plenty of oxygen for the material to burn with.

Yes, this is the 'reason' according to the DfT. To me its a ridiculous argument fabricated to allow cheaper made seats. If they want to be stupidly picky then why do they allow diesel fuel tanks, hydraulic transmission, engine oil and oil-based plastic fittings. Not one fire has been deadly due to the void in sprung seats.

Cars are dangerous.. ban them.

 

[Mikey C]

I agree (though I also find the back support of the Sophia inadequate). Even if the price difference was astronomical it will likely turn out to have been a false economy, but I just wonder what it was at the time.

I actually find both of those ok (and of course the 745 seats are also on the 755s). They're not massively padded but the shape is ok. Given the fire regs these days making sprung cushions a thing of the past, I think the pendolino seats are close to the best we're likely to see any time soon.

I find the Chiltern 168s very comfortable. The SE 375s are decent too.

The IC70 was also too low for taller people. FGW then went the other way with the tombstone seats on their refurbished HSTs!

 

[AM9]

Yes, this is the 'reason' according to the DfT. To me its a ridiculous argument fabricated to allow cheaper made seats. If they want to be stupidly picky then whiny do they allow diesel fuel tanks, hydraulic transmission, engine oil and oil-based plastic fittings. Not one fire has been deadly due to the void in sprung seats.

Cars are dangerous.. ban them.

That's irrelevant as fuel tanks, engines and transmission are outside the passenger space and the floor of that space is designed to suppress fire spreading into it long enough to allow safe passenger egress. Having seat designs that further constrain the spread of fire and even being the first fuel for a fire started by something like a faulty battery device brought on by a passenger is good holistic fire prevention practice. Such portable devices didn't even exist in the days of Mk1 coach introduction but there was the alternative which was careless smokers. Plastic fittings and finishings in the latest rolling stock trains are generally more flame resistant than the wood and paint trim of Mk1.
So no "stupidly picky" at all.

 

[greyman42]

You intimated that a sprung base is just springs. A sprung base is also full of a flammable material to make the base soft. If it was just springs it would be the most uncomfortable seat ever.

You don't have to use flammable materials in this day and age or the present seats would also be full of flammable materials.

 

[AM9]

You don't have to use flammable materials in this day and age or the present seats would also be full of flammable materials.

But whatever they were made of, they form a bellows of air that can accelerate the spread of a fire not caused by them. A layer of fire resistant foam does not have a large reservoir of air within.

 

[greyman42]

But whatever they were made of, they form a bellows of air that can accelerate the spread of a fire not caused by them. A layer of fire resistant foam does not have a large reservoir of air within.

The whole coach is full of air.

 

[physics34]

But whatever they were made of, they form a bellows of air that can accelerate the spread of a fire not caused by them. A layer of fire resistant foam does not have a large reservoir of air within.

But then we harp back to instances that this has caused human injury/fatality... if a fire under a train 'cushion' has gone unnoticed because its been burning away in the void of a spring..(ie a cigerette butt) it will soon then get noticed after a short time... (smoke/smell/flame).. it'll hardly be towering inferno at that point and will be highly survivable. I just think it is bizarre overkill.

Fatal fires i can recall.... Taunton in the 70s when a pile of linen was placed on a heater on a sleeper train....
..and that Funicular railway in the 90s in Austria when an electric fan overheated and set alight hydralic fluid... both extreme sad but both extremely different circumstances to having a void in a spring.

Comfort v safety....... i think sometimes a bit of common sense is needed.

 

[AM9]

But then we harp back to instances that this has caused human injury/fatality... if a fire under a train 'cushion' has gone unnoticed because its been burning away in the void of a spring..(ie a cigerette butt) it will soon then get noticed after a short time... (smoke/smell/flame).. it'll hardly be towering inferno at that point and will be highly survivable. I just think it is bizarre overkill.

Fatal fires i can recall.... Taunton in the 70s when a pile of linen was placed on a heater on a sleeper train....
..and that Funicular railway in the 90s in Austria when an electric fan overheated and set alight hydralic fluid... both extreme sad but both extremely different circumstances to having a void in a spring.

Comfort v safety....... i think sometimes a bit of common sense is needed.

If you preferred seats designed for better performance in a fire, would you still be arguing that the risk before their introduction was of little consequence and the vigilance of your typical passenger would save the day?

 

[185143]

But definitely not for a 5 hour journey. Paddington to Penzance probably not very pleasant these days

I appreciate it's subjective, but I gladly did Aberdeen-Kings Cross, Paddington-Penzance last Autumn. Had no discomfort at all, aside from being very ready to see a bed in Penzance as I hadn't seen one in three days.

After a good night's sleep, I'd have gladly done the Penzance-Aberdeen journey in reverse

 

[Elybob]

I dread riding 700s on anything longer than an hour. Just did Luton Airport - Burgess Hill and had no table with rock hard seats

I know they're technically good trains but they were not exactly built for comfort

 

[SamCam]

I dread riding 700s on anything longer than an hour. Just did Luton Airport - Burgess Hill and had no table with rock hard seats

I know they're technically good trains but they were not exactly built for comfort

Certainly not built for comfort...

However, as you say they are technically very good trains and I find the build quality shines through - for shorter journeys they are very pleasant to ride.

 

[takno]

Certainly not built for comfort...

However, as you say they are technically very good trains and I find the build quality shines through - for shorter journeys they are very pleasant to ride.

My typical journey is around 40 minutes, and I'd say overall that I find myself longing for something with a bit more give in it. Doesn't need much - almost any plane or coach seat seems to be better. I suspect they aren't as uncomfortable as the IET seats, although I've perhaps just never tried to spend 2 hours sitting in them.

 

[43066]

Certainly not built for comfort...

However, as you say they are technically very good trains and I find the build quality shines through - for shorter journeys they are very pleasant to ride.

They’re built for, and are incredibly good at, clearing crowded platforms and transporting huge numbers of people on shortish (circa 20 minute IIRC) average TL journeys. They aren’t great for journeys of an hour or so, for sure, but that’s a minority use case.

They’re a little like tube trains in that respect.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I dread riding 700s on anything longer than an hour. Just did Luton Airport - Burgess Hill and had no table with rock hard seats

I know they're technically good trains but they were not exactly built for comfort

To circumvent this, the first class section at the back (relative to direction of travel) is always declassified on Thameslink services, so head straight there if you happen to be on one longer than an hour. Did St Pancras to Brighton and back on a 700 and this section is more suited for those longer journeys.

 

[AM9]

To circumvent this, the first class section at the back (relative to direction of travel) is always declassified on Thameslink services, so head straight there if you happen to be on one longer than an hour. Did St Pancras to Brighton and back on a 700 and this section is more suited for those longer journeys.

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This is the problem here. The 700sare mass people movers, - not just along the inner stretches of the metro service, but also as far as the key commuter railheads, e.g. St Albans which has more commuters than any other non terminal destination on the whole line. The average journey time for all travelllers is about 20 minutes according to those here that have access to such data, so the seats being 'OK' for most for up to 45 minutes mean that relatively few will have any major issue. That's the way it is.

 

[zwk500]

The average journey time for all travelllers is about 20 minutes according to those here that have access to such data, so the seats being 'OK' for most for up to 45 minutes mean that relatively few will have any major issue. That's the way it is.

I don't see why, just because the average journey time is 20 minutes, a service that offers a lot of quite high demand 60min+ journeys as part of it's offering can't be provided with decent seats. The distance to the seat in front is also quite small on the 700s which doesn't help the overall seat comfort.
There are a number of examples of trains both in the UK and abroad that are compliant with current standards with comfortable enough seats that form commuter workings.

 

[AM9]

I don't see why, just because the average journey time is 20 minutes, a service that offers a lot of quite high demand 60min+ journeys as part of it's offering can't be provided with decent seats. The distance to the seat in front is also quite small on the 700s which doesn't help the overall seat comfort.
There are a number of examples of trains both in the UK and abroad that are compliant with current standards with comfortable enough seats that form commuter workings.

Not everybody is that bothered about the seats as they are. For an answer about why seats more to your taste (presumably moe expensive and maybe leaving less legroom), weren't provided, DfT would be the ones to ask, GTR doesn't care, nor do most passengers care enough to take it further.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't see why, just because the average journey time is 20 minutes, a service that offers a lot of quite high demand 60min+ journeys as part of it's offering can't be provided with decent seats. The distance to the seat in front is also quite small on the 700s which doesn't help the overall seat comfort.
There are a number of examples of trains both in the UK and abroad that are compliant with current standards with comfortable enough seats that form commuter workings.

As you say, plenty of people will travel from Brighton, Huntingdon and Horsham/Littlehaven to London. All of these journeys are an hour.

For the record, I am not really a 700 hater. For the most part, they do a good job. As regards fires, the walk through design would make escape to another carriage easier, but then the smoke would also spread more easily. Not that I have given it much thought. Being on a train that catches fire is way down my list of concerns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I would say that the 730/0 provides basically the same thing as the 700 but in a slightly nicer environment in terms of colour scheme, lighting etc, though the seats are narrower. It does show that you can improve on it, though.

 

[Mikey C]

The 700 seating is poor for anything other than short journeys, but at least it's very durable. They look as good as new still, whereas the IET seats aren't just uncomfortable, they aren't durable enough, with the metal bar poking through after a short time in service, so a double failing.