Can deep tube Underground trains run on other lines normally?

[miklcct]

For example, can a Bakerloo line train run into the Jubilee line via Baker Street so Stanmore in passenger service, if there is a disruption on either line?

 

[boiledbeans2]

Well, 'Bakerloo line trains' did run on the Jubilee line... historically (I know this isn't what you're asking ).

Here's a 'Bakerloo line train' at Finchley Road

1972-MarkII_FinchleyRoad

1972 Mark II stock at Finchley Road on the Jubilee Line, bound for Charing Cross.

www.flickr.com

Here's a 'Bakerloo line train' at Bakerloo line station Stanmore, bound for Elephant & Castle

London Transport . Bakerloo Line . 1972 Mark 2 Tube Stock . 3532 Stanmore Station , London . 01st-March-1979 .

1972 Mark 2 Tube Stock . 3532 at Stanmore Station , the country end of London's Bakerloo Line . The driver has re-set the destination display , but not changer over the Red "Tail " lights to White Train marker lights . 01st-March-1979 .

www.flickr.com

 

[rebmcr]

For example, can a Bakerloo line train run into the Jubilee line via Baker Street so Stanmore in passenger service, if there is a disruption on either line?

There's no way that they could divert in service, many safety rules would be broken by doing so.

Out of service, it happens routinely, except 09 Tube Stock is wider than the rest and cannot leave the Victoria Line.

 

[Meglos]

The 1972 stock originally ran on the Jubilee line, so from a stock point of view, it's almost certain possible.

However it's very unlikely you would find a Jubilee driver who is current with certification to drive 1972 stock, or a Bakerloo driver who is route current to drive on the Jubilee line.

 

[bramling]

For example, can a Bakerloo line train run into the Jubilee line via Baker Street so Stanmore in passenger service, if there is a disruption on either line?

Not really.

There are three issues:

1) Is the type of train cleared for use on another line? In the old days the answer to this was normally yes, nowadays it’s pretty much no.

2) Is the train compatible with the signalling? Again this is pretty much no nowadays. Even the Thales system has differences between the three different LU installations (Jubilee and Northern are virtually the same but there are some small differences, SSL is quite different).

3) Drivers don’t generally have knowledge over other lines, so even if the previous two issues were reconciled, the answer is still no. Indeed, at times LU seems to have enough trouble with their drivers knowing their own lines properly, let alone other lines!

 

[pdeaves]

) Drivers don’t generally have knowledge over other lines, so even if the previous two issues were reconciled, the answer is still no. Indeed, at times LU seems to have enough trouble with their drivers knowing their own lines properly, let alone other lines!

This is 'easily' (note inverted commas) solvable by swapping drivers at the appropriate point. A crew change en route is not a new concept. That doesn't change the other points, of course.

 

[Dstock7080]

The 1972 stock originally ran on the Jubilee line, so from a stock point of view, it's almost certain possible.

All 1972 Stock originally delivered to the Northern, transferred to Bakerloo from Jubilee

 

[matt_world2004]

Piccadilly line has ran to Ealing Broadway in passenger service during Christmas closures on the district line, this was done hy having a piccadilly line driver and a district line pilot.

 

[Nym]

Not to mention the majority of the Jubilee Line was Bakerloo previously (everything from Baker Street North)

 

[AM9]

Also Central line stock has always had it's outside collector shoes set higher than all the other lines because the outer (+420v) rail set higher than it is on other deep tube lines. This provides clearance in the line's original 11ft 8in diameter tunnels, whereas the other tube lines have 12ft diameter or greater tunnels so the outer rail can be set at the same height (including the SSL lines. It is a simple operation to adjust the shoe height but would prevent through running.
I also believe that the Bakerloo line bores have some curves south of Baker St that require shorter cars to provide clearance than on the Jubilee tunneled sections, hence the '96 cars are 1.67m longer than the '72 stock.

 

[Wolfie]

This is 'easily' (note inverted commas) solvable by swapping drivers at the appropriate point. A crew change en route is not a new concept. That doesn't change the other points, of course.

So the next question is are drivers trained to drive stock which doesn't normally operate from their depot/on their line... I think that l already know the answer....

For example, can a Bakerloo line train run into the Jubilee line via Baker Street so Stanmore in passenger service, if there is a disruption on either line?

How about a Bakerloo line running onto the Jubilee at Baker Street to run to Stratford.... I'm sure that the platform edge doors won't be an issue, lol.....

 

[notverydeep]

Piccadilly line has ran to Ealing Broadway in passenger service during Christmas closures on the district line, this was done hy having a piccadilly line driver and a district line pilot.

Until very recently, the Piccadilly line was able to operate over the District 'local' lines between Hammersmith and Acton Town (and indeed was scheduled to operate a small number of trips). Piccadilly line trains even served the District line stations such as Ravenscourt Park during some disruptions. However, the re-signalling of the SSR has meant that this flexibility has had to be lost and the crossovers between Barons Court and Hammersmith that facilitated this have now been plain lined.

Until the early 2000s a similar situation existed on the Jubilee line between Finchley Road and Wembley Park, where a few late evening Metropolitan line trains used now removed crossovers at Finchley Road and operated across the Jubilee line tracks and served the Jubilee line stations.

The Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway is possibly the only remaining situation where this could occur during disruption or engineering work, aside from the normal mixed operation of the Sub-surface line 'brands' (i.e. Metropolitan, District, Hammersmith & City and Circle lines) which have long shared the same track network. The potential for rail tours to take LU rolling stock away from its normal operation has generally been reduced by modern, but line specific signalling systems which don't like 'alien' trains. In several cases even normal engineering trains can only move within a possession.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the case of Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway the medium term aim was for the Piccadilly to replace the District service there anyway. Altering the platform heights might even be required to meet modern standards if both types of stock were no longer in normal use.

 

[notverydeep]

In the case of Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway the medium term aim was for the Piccadilly to replace the District service there anyway. Altering the platform heights might even be required to meet modern standards if both types of stock were no longer in normal use.

Interestingly though, once this occurs there will still be a mix of stock types on the Piccadilly (formerly District) platforms at Ealing Broadway, as it will still be part of the route for many of the District line S7s returning to Ealing Common Depot, though presumably by then not in passenger service...

 

[swt_passenger]

Interestingly though, once this occurs there will still be a mix of stock types on the Piccadilly (formerly District) platforms at Ealing Broadway, as it will still be part of the route for many of the District line S7s returning to Ealing Common Depot, though presumably by then not in passenger service...

Won’t that depend on any track changes at Ealing Common depot approaches though. But probably drifting off topic, I think potential depot aspects came up in a previous thread.

 

[notverydeep]

Won’t that depend on any track changes at Ealing Common depot approaches though. But probably drifting off topic, I think potential depot aspects came up in a previous thread.

That is true (and yes, drifting off topic), but there are no firm plans to change the track layout specifically for this and complete separation would require an expensive grade separation between Turnham Green and Acton Town. The default option would be inter-operable signalling around the current layout, but this would only be finalised once the Piccadilly line Upgrade re-signalling is procured...

 

[Basil Jet]

Until very recently, the Piccadilly line was able to operate over the District 'local' lines between Hammersmith and Acton Town (and indeed was scheduled to operate a small number of trips). Piccadilly line trains even served the District line stations such as Ravenscourt Park during some disruptions. However, the re-signalling of the SSR has meant that this flexibility has had to be lost and the crossovers between Barons Court and Hammersmith that facilitated this have now been plain lined.

Until the early 2000s a similar situation existed on the Jubilee line between Finchley Road and Wembley Park, where a few late evening Metropolitan line trains used now removed crossovers at Finchley Road and operated across the Jubilee line tracks and served the Jubilee line stations.

Have the glass tubes containing silver paint that set the signals to red if a Met / District train heads for the Jubilee / Piccadilly tunnels been removed?

 

[Railguy1]

I'm sure I've seen a photo somewhere of a Piccadilly line train at West Kensington and then Earl's Court district but maybe I just dreamt that??

Not quite related but interesting I think:

Fast Met line trains occasionally go down the slow lines both from Moor Park-Harrow and Harrow-Wembley.

Met line trains (at least the A stock) could terminate at Rayners Lane although the siding is used almost exclusively for Piccadilly line trains.

 

[Dstock7080]

I'm sure I've seen a photo somewhere of a Piccadilly line train at West Kensington and then Earl's Court district but maybe I just dreamt that??

Not quite related but interesting I think:

Met line trains (at least the A stock) could terminate at Rayners Lane although the siding is used almost exclusively for Piccadilly line trains.

Early morning Piccadilly trains did reverse at West Kensington for crew refresher purposes but this was withdrawn many years ago and 1973 Stock are no longer permitted without modification onto 750v DC beyond Barons Court.
I have a photo of a '73 at Earl's Court (District) in 1990, when it took a private party from Heathrow-High Street-Olympia-Earl's Court-Northfields.

S Stock can use Rayners Lane siding.

 

[Mojo]

Have the glass tubes containing silver paint that set the signals to red if a Met / District train heads for the Jubilee / Piccadilly tunnels been removed?

The surface stock detection still exists at Hounslow and Barons Court because the sets of points enabling trains to cross over from the local to the fast at Acton Town still exist, and will remain, in situ as Piccadilly line trains still require access to the local lines at Acton Town.

Similarly, points exist at Neasden which go from the Met to Jubilee. This is in daily use for 96 stock trains which stable in Neasden depot, also for engineering trains and stock transfers to get to and from the Jubilee and Bakerloo lines.

 

[brewer85]

Have the glass tubes containing silver paint that set the signals to red if a Met / District train heads for the Jubilee / Piccadilly tunnels been removed?

This is all fascinating stuff. Sorry for the ignorant question, but how exactly does silver paint set a signal to red?

 

[Dstock7080]

This is all fascinating stuff. Sorry for the ignorant question, but how exactly does silver paint set a signal to red?

Traditionally the tubes were filled with mercury, when this became a banned substance the tubes were coated on the inside with conductive silver paint. Breaking the tubes, breaks the circuit.

 

[Mikey C]

Would the longer carriage trains (73, 83 before being scrapped, 95 and 96) fit on the Bakerloo and Central lines, with their tight curves? Or is the only issue unacceptable gaps between the doors and platform at stations like Bank?

 

[matt_world2004]

Wasn't the cold war post attack plan to consolidate some lines together to provide a service that could use lesser damaged infrastructure eg combining the Northern and piccadilly line to provide a service.

 

[rebmcr]

Wasn't the cold war post attack plan to consolidate some lines together to provide a service that could use lesser damaged infrastructure eg combining the Northern and piccadilly line to provide a service.

The existing single-track connection between the Northern and Piccadilly lines isn't suitable for running a service, but plans to dig new crossover tunnels in response to a disaster were probably sane.

 

[londonboi]

Indeed they do and a few years ago a D stock set was sent to outstable at Amersham.

1995 stock also visits Ealing Common depot frequently as well have saw one recently stabled there

 

[AM9]

Surely the capability of stock from 'foreign' lines to run over other lines is affected by two issues:
1) the basic difference between SSL and tube stock is drIven by the sheer clearance problems. As much of the low hanging fruit of the level boarding at platforms requirement gas been fixed by setting height and clearances for the 'normal' stock for the line. I recently travelled from Baker St to Stanmore in both directions, making the usual cages at Wembley Park. I noticed the full dedication of platforms to the lines'native stock, I.e., no more stepping down into the 96 stock.
2) the ongoing need for stock to access depots and ultimately enter/exit the system means that tracks providing this access must be fit for purpose,- on a regular basis in terms of daily stabling movements.

 

[321over360]

Would the longer carriage trains (73, 83 before being scrapped, 95 and 96) fit on the Bakerloo and Central lines, with their tight curves? Or is the only issue unacceptable gaps between the doors and platform at stations like Bank?

Does the 1960 stock Track Recording Train still go on the Central Line these days, as i know that there is videos of 1992 stock doing track inspections as the TRT contains a 1973 carriage so they must be able to use the Central Line

 

[Nym]

Does the 1960 stock Track Recording Train still go on the Central Line these days, as i know that there is videos of 1992 stock doing track inspections as the TRT contains a 1973 carriage so they must be able to use the Central Line

The TRV will still do the Central Line, there's no ATMS fitted to the 1992TS so there is a need to carry out the more regular inspection routines.
The 1960TS pilot cars for the TRV is fitted with Central Line ATP to support this.

The couplers on the TRV however are not standard, BR fitted them with standard height buckeye couplers, so is not a suitable baseline for this vehicle length's use on other lines, and the 1960TS used is fitted with high lift shoegear.

It's also operated by drivers who know where to take it easy so it doesn't smash it into the tunnel wall on tight sections.

 

[Basil Jet]

Would the longer carriage trains (73, 83 before being scrapped, 95 and 96) fit on the Bakerloo and Central lines, with their tight curves? Or is the only issue unacceptable gaps between the doors and platform at stations like Bank?

The tunnel rings needed to be shaved at South Kensington when the 1973 stock was introduced on the Piccadilly Line, so it seems unlikely they would fit other lines without some shaving, if at all.