Can I board a train without a valid ticket if I have a Rail Travel Voucher

[r82]

If I have a Rail Travel Voucher, received due to delay repay, and the ticket office at my departing station is closed, and I obviously cannot use it the ticket machine, can I board the train and pay the guard if one is onboard / at my destination if there is not one?

Is this affected by driver-only operation / penalty fare? Also, if the ticket office is also closed at my destination and there was no guard, am I free to just leave the station if there is no-one around to try to purchase the ticket from? If I had alternative means to pay at the machine (e.g., card) am I required to use that?

 

[Llandudno]

I have boarded a train with no ticket office, but with a TVM and had no issues redeeming my Rail Travel Voucher on board the TfW train.

So I would presume it is ok…?

 

[yorkie]

If I have a Rail Travel Voucher, received due to delay repay, and the ticket office at my departing station is closed, and I obviously cannot use it the ticket machine, can I board the train and pay the guard if one is onboard / at my destination if there is not one?

Absolutely

Is this affected by driver-only operation /

No. The operation of the train makes no difference (as I've said before, some driver only operated trains have travelling ticket inspectors, on board supervisors etc; meanwhile some trains with Guards have non commercial Guards or the Guard may not be in your part of the train or may not have issuing equipment or may be in the back cab)

penalty fare?

No. Penalty Fares cannot be issued in these circumstances.

Also, if the ticket office is also closed at my destination and there was no guard, am I free to just leave the station if there is no-one around to try to purchase the ticket from?

Correct.

If I had alternative means to pay at the machine (e.g., card) am I required to use that?

No.

You are entitled to use the RTV; it might be less stressful to pay any remaining balance in cash rather than card, but you are entitled to do either.

I have boarded a train with no ticket office, but with a TVM and had no issues redeeming my Rail Travel Voucher on board the TfW train.

So I would presume it is ok…?

Agreed

 

[Watershed]

You are entitled to use the RTV; it might be less stressful to pay any remaining balance in cash rather than card, but you are entitled to do either.

Although I would point out that admitting to holding alternative methods of payment is inadvisable, to say the least. This helps to avoid any suggestion that you could or should have used these methods of payment in the first place.

 

[danm14]

It would probably be advisable not to admit to having sufficient means to pay the fare without using the Rail Travel Voucher.

Tendering a £20 note and a 50p RTV for a £2 ticket that you could have bought using the £20 note at the ticket machine could arise suspicion that you did not intend to buy a ticket unless you were challenged. Doubly so if you were travelling to an unstaffed station.

I'm not by any means whatsoever suggesting there is any obligation to use an alternative method of payment if you have it - but it would seem wise to avoid having this discussion in the first place rather than having to deal with the fallout of it if you ended up being reported for prosecution.

 

[David57]

I had the same scenario this week, I boarded the train at Long Buckby, ticket office was closed (took a photo of it in case i needed proof), travelled to Birmingham New Street, where there is a 'fares to pay' window, and redeemed my RTV there.

 

[crablab]

I've had this situation. I got my RTV endorsed at a gateline who couldn't sell me a ticket but were happy to let me through. That wasn't strictly necessary however.

I'm not sure having alternative payment methods is necessarily the 'gotcha' as described above, unless there's clear intent to misuse the warrant.

My view is that it's perfectly reasonable, and afaik the NRCoT agrees, to want to use my £20 RTV towards my approx. £20 ticket. Unfortunate that the railway is unable to sell me a ticket either at my origin, enroute or at my destination (because of a strike), but that's ultimately not my concern. I would happily pay with my RTV at the first available opportunity. If no such opportunity is present, the journey is complimentary.

 

[r82]

Here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/6/made

It says

(4) In paragraph (2)(a), there are no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket if—

(a)the passenger is not able to use any means of payment the passenger has available at the relevant time; and

(b)the passenger would usually be able to purchase a travel ticket at the station in question at the relevant time of day using one of those means of payment.

This would appear to suggest that if I had a card I would have to use it.

 

[Gaelan]

I have boarded a train with no ticket office, but with a TVM and had no issues redeeming my Rail Travel Voucher on board the TfW train.

So I would presume it is ok…?

While it sounds like you're right in this case, this logic doesn't work as a general rule - there have been plenty of threads about guards happily selling tickets on board in penalty fare areas, then passengers one day running into an RPI who issues a penalty fare instead.

 

[yorkie]

Although I would point out that admitting to holding alternative methods of payment is inadvisable, to say the least. This helps to avoid any suggestion that you could or should have used these methods of payment in the first place.

I agree it's best to avoid such situations; the best thing to do when using an RTV is to pr sent the RTV and any remaining sum in cash (but the cash being to a lesser value than the fare); this avoids any potential arguments.

Here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/6/made

It says


This would appear to suggest that if I had a card I would have to use it.

The contract allows you to use your chosen payment method. But it's best not to get into this argument.

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for anyone who has sight of any bank cards to prove that you had sufficient funds available on those cards to purchase a ticket using them; they may even be work cards. But it's best not to get into any such discussions, so I would keep any cards well hidden.

 

[xotGD]

Of course, the problem can be avoided by choosing BACS payment rather than a RTV for Delay Repay.

 

[yorkie]

Of course, the problem can be avoided by choosing BACS payment rather than a RTV for Delay Repay.

This isn't always an option, in particular for ex-gratia payments, those without UK bank accounts etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course, the problem can be avoided by choosing BACS payment rather than a RTV for Delay Repay.

Yes but then you wouldn't get a rail travel voucher which indemnifies you from purchasing a ticket if the ticket office is closed. That is the whole thrust of the thread! RTVs are a valid payment method and it's up to TOCs/RDG to withdraw them if they want. They haven't, so that's that.

 

[Benjwri]

Here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/6/made

It says

(b)the passenger would usually be able to purchase a travel ticket at the station in question at the relevant time of day using one of those means of payment.

I haven’t seen this before. Does this not mean you could be reported for prosecution for trying to pay with cash unless the ticket office is unexpectedly closed? Since in the station does not have a cash TVM and ticket office is closed as scheduled, cash would not normally be accepted at that time of day?

 

[trover]

I agree it's best to avoid such situations; the best thing to do when using an RTV is to pr sent the RTV and any remaining sum in cash (but the cash being to a lesser value than the fare); this avoids any potential arguments.

The contract allows you to use your chosen payment method. But it's best not to get into this argument.

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for anyone who has sight of any bank cards to prove that you had sufficient funds available on those cards to purchase a ticket using them; they may even be work cards. But it's best not to get into any such discussions, so I would keep any cards well hidden.

I see what you mean, but RTVs have expiration dates, it’s not unreasonable for (occasional) passengers to prioritise use of RTVs over other methods, even if the value is £1, for use on whatever cost of the ticket.

 

[Watershed]

I haven’t seen this before. Does this not mean you could be reported for prosecution for trying to pay with cash unless the ticket office is unexpectedly closed? Since in the station does not have a cash TVM and ticket office is closed as scheduled, cash would not normally be accepted at that time of day?

The Penalty Fares Regulations are separate to the Byelaws; they don't create criminal offences (other than refusal to give your details), merely liability to pay a Penalty Fare.

It's also worth noting that RTVs state on their reverse that they may be used for payment at "any station" - this isn't subject to any sort of proviso that there must be a ticket office. So this either means that it is possible to pay for a ticket at the station using an RTV, or alternatively it provides permission to buy a ticket onboard (thus meaning that Penalty Fares don't apply).

 

[Spaceship323]

I see what you mean, but RTVs have expiration dates, it’s not unreasonable for (occasional) passengers to prioritise use of RTVs over other methods, even if the value is £1, for use on whatever cost of the ticket.

The cross-country RTV's last for 12 months so I usually carry one to cover my fare to the main station when I buy a rover ticket for that day, as rover tickets are not available at my local station TVM...and I only carry cash

 

[r82]

The Penalty Fares Regulations are separate to the Byelaws; they don't create criminal offences (other than refusal to give your details), merely liability to pay a Penalty Fare.

Would this mean that while you couldn't be prosecuted you could receive a penalty fare?

I had a look at the National Rail Conditions of Travel and its a bit unclear:

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard an audible announcement to this effect; or
6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because
6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or
6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or
6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not accessible to you.

Emphasis is from the original.

It seems to me that

• 6.1.1 would imply that if I had a card I must use it in a Penalty Fares area. However, the reference to Permit to Travel seems to muddle this a bit. i.e., does this clause only apply where there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine?
• Also, the terms say: "unless one of the following circumstances applies", surely this means that 6.1.3 overrides 6.1.1 in all circumstances as it is more forgiving.
• 6.1.3 seems to imply it would be okay as the RTV is my "preferred method of payment" though this does specify card or cash.

 

[yorkie]

I see what you mean, but RTVs have expiration dates, it’s not unreasonable for (occasional) passengers to prioritise use of RTVs over other methods, even if the value is £1, for use on whatever cost of the ticket.

I completely agree but sometimes it's best to reduce the possibility of arguments, as you never know when you are going to encounter a problematic member of staff.

 

[island]

If I have a Rail Travel Voucher, received due to delay repay, and the ticket office at my departing station is closed, and I obviously cannot use it the ticket machine, can I board the train and pay the guard if one is onboard / at my destination if there is not one?

I think the answer has to be “it depends”.

I will set out two, intentionally extreme, scenarios, with the intent to demonstrate that it is not possible to have a blanket answer.

Person A is carrying a £1.50 RTV with 10 months left to use it, £500 in cash, and half a dozen credit cards with plentiful available limit. He travels by train most days. He has carried the RTV for two months and usually buys his ticket at the station ticket office every day paying by card and not using the RTV. He travels on a route where the only onboard staff member is the train driver and his start and finish stations are ungated. On days when the ticket office is closed at his starting station, he does not buy a ticket from the cash and card ticket machine, saying to himself that if he’s inspected he will say he wanted to pay with the RTV and the balance another way.

Person B has lost his only debit card at the beginning of a long weekend. He has £15 in RTVs from previous delayed journeys, and he has found £1.20 in loose change around the house. He gets the train once a month normally and this time is heading to a relative’s house to borrow enough cash to tide him over until he can withdraw cash over the counter at his bank on Tuesday morning. He turns up to the station and also finds the ticket office closed. His cash won’t even cover a fare to the next station. He gets on the train anyway hoping there’ll be a conductor who can sort it out for him without giving him a “fine”.

It is quite clear that person A intends to “pay only when challenged” and is committing the offence of travelling on the railway without having previously paid his fare and with the intent to avoid payment thereof, contrary to section 5 (3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. He has kept onto an RTV despite having had opportunities to use it in the past, and has plenty of alternative means to pay his fare at the ticket machine.

I don’t think anyone would say that person B has committed any offences here either.

Again, neither of these scenarios is especially realistic. But what it does demonstrate is that having an RTV on you – especially one that is low value in relation to the journey you are making – cannot constitute a blanket indemnity from paying before you board at a station with an operable TVM but no ticket office.

 

[Watershed]

Would this mean that while you couldn't be prosecuted you could receive a penalty fare?

At worst, we are talking about a Penalty Fare, yes. But I don't think even that can be applied here.

seems to me that

• 6.1.1 would imply that if I had a card I must use it in a Penalty Fares area. However, the reference to Permit to Travel seems to muddle this a bit. i.e., does this clause only apply where there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine?

This is why it's inadvisable to admit to having alternative methods of payment - it simply muddies the waters.

There are only 37 stations across the country which still have Permit to Travel machines (see this thread) and only 3 have ones in working order, so Permits to Travel are largely an irrelevance. For obvious reasons, you can't be forced to use a Permit to Travel machine that isn't working.

Also, the terms say: "unless one of the following circumstances applies", surely this means that 6.1.3 overrides 6.1.1 in all circumstances as it is more forgiving.

Indeed, it does. It's just another example of poor drafting in the NRCoT - but in this case it's to the passenger's benefit.

6.1.3 seems to imply it would be okay as the RTV is my "preferred method of payment" though this does specify card or cash.

That's the slight complication, but clearly RTVs are an accepted method of payment (see NRE) so there is no argument for them not counting as such.

 

[duncanp]

Tendering a £20 note and a 50p RTV for a £2 ticket that you could have bought using the £20 note at the ticket machine could arise suspicion that you did not intend to buy a ticket unless you were challenged. Doubly so if you were travelling to an unstaffed station.

Why shouldn't a passenger use a £20 note and a 50p RTV to pay for a £2 fare.

Is there any law preventing the use of a combination of cash and RTVs to pay for a ticket?

Someone might only have a £20 note because that was all that was available from the cash machine.

 

[danm14]

Why shouldn't a passenger use a £20 note and a 50p RTV to pay for a £2 fare.

Is there any law preventing the use of a combination of cash and RTVs to pay for a ticket?

Someone might only have a £20 note because that was all that was available from the cash machine.

I'm not by any means whatsoever suggesting there is any obligation to use an alternative method of payment if you have it - but it would seem wise to avoid having this discussion in the first place rather than having to deal with the fallout of it if you ended up being reported for prosecution.

 

[Snow1964]

Person A is carrying a £1.50 RTV with 10 months left to use it, £500 in cash, and half a dozen credit cards with plentiful available limit. He travels by train most days. He has carried the RTV for two months and usually buys his ticket at the station ticket office every day paying by card and not using the RTV. He travels on a route where the only onboard staff member is the train driver and his start and finish stations are ungated.

It is quite clear that person A intends to “pay only when challenged” and is committing the offence of travelling on the railway without having previously paid his fare and with the intent to avoid payment thereof, contrary to section 5 (3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. He has kept onto an RTV despite having had opportunities to use it in the past, and has plenty of alternative means to pay his fare at the ticket machine.

Scenario A shouldn't really be a serious option, if both ends of a journey are open then not being challenged for 2 months suggests a serious problem with ticket collection.

It is rather irrelevant though because ultimately if normally buying ticket every day, then the voucher will eventually have to be used otherwise it will expire.

But possibly it is a problem with rail vouchers, if I receive a John Lewis one, can use it as part payment both online and in person, and possibly also at self service tills in Waitrose, but not so flexible for train one.

 

[joncombe]

It's by no means definitive but I was in the situation of wanting to use a RTV to board a train at an SWR station. The ticket office was supposed to be open but was closed. I did have other ways to pay. I used the help point on the platform and asked if it was ok to board without a ticket and buy on the train and they confirmed it was. I found the guard as soon as I got on and had no trouble using the voucher to pay on the train.

 

[r82]

Scenario A shouldn't really be a serious option, if both ends of a journey are open then not being challenged for 2 months suggests a serious problem with ticket collection.

This could be the case in the late evening when the gatelines are left open on Thameslink DOO trains. e.g., if I boarded at Biggleswade and left at Sandy, a train of only a few minutes it would be very unlikely to be checked.

 

[scrapy]

If the rail industry wanted to, they could allow TVMs to accept RTVs by issuing them with a QR code that could be scanned by the machine. They have not yet done this so I see it as perfectly acceptable to use a RTV to pay any part of a fare regardless of what other methods of payment you may or may not have. The only proviso is I would get a permit to travel/promise to pay notice where applicable from the TVM where available and penalty fares apply.

 

[island]

Scenario A shouldn't really be a serious option, if both ends of a journey are open then not being challenged for 2 months suggests a serious problem with ticket collection.

Welcome to Southeastern's metro routes

 

[Benjwri]

Welcome to Southeastern's metro routes

Or any non IET GWR service.

 

[12C]

Unless I’m missing something I think it’s absolutely ridiculous a passenger could even potentially be fined for offering a rail travel voucher for payment, regardless of whether they have other means of payment. If they have been offered it as compensation for disruption they should be able to use it on any service they like at the first opportunity.

That would be like complaining to Tesco for receiving poor service and being given a gift voucher by means of apology. Then turning up at a Tesco store to use it, to find the staff refuse to accept it as payment and attempt to fine/prosecute you because you should have just used your debit card instead.