Can inspectors check bank cards in real time?

[PierreB]

Long story short, I was stopped on a train by revenue staff between London Bridge and East Croydon (boarded at Blackfriars).
I touched in with my AmEx card as I do it every time I travel. Now this guy scanned my card and he was telling me that I didn't touch in and he would interview me. He only let me off after I showed him in the online banking app that there is a pre authorisation on my card from 10 minutes ago, as it always happens when I use it.

I was wondering how can an inspector tell in real time if the card was used? I was under the impression all they could tell was if the card was acceptable for travel (not expired, stopped, banned from the network for misuse, etc.). I'm really thinking about complaining about him, it was really embarrassing.

 

[swt_passenger]

Long story short, I was stopped on a train by revenue staff between London Bridge and East Croydon (boarded at Blackfriars).
I touched in with my AmEx card as I do it every time I travel. Now this guy scanned my card and he was telling me that I didn't touch in and he would interview me. He only let me off after I showed him in the online banking app that there is a pre authorisation on my card from 10 minutes ago, as it always happens when I use it.

I was wondering how can an inspector tell in real time if the card was used? I was under the impression all they could tell was if the card was acceptable for travel (not expired, stopped, banned from the network for misuse, etc.). I'm really thinking about complaining about him, it was really embarrassing.

Ticket inspection staff cannot tell if a contactless debit or credit card is touched in, because the entry gates do not (Ie can not) write to the card. I believe his equipment can only tell if your card is on TfL’s hot list, as you already seem to realise.

He clearly needs some retraining...

 

[ainsworth74]

He clearly needs some retraining...

Yes I would suggest that a polite letter to TfL the train company expressing your concern at what happened would be appropriate in this situation and asking that TfL the train company will undertake to make sure the inspector is given some retraining would be appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ticket inspection staff cannot tell if a contactless debit or credit card is touched in, because the entry gates do not (Ie can not) write to the card. I believe his equipment can only tell if your card is on TfL’s hot list, as you already seem to realise.

He clearly needs some retraining...

One exception: on buses they can tell, because the ticket machine records part of the card number (last 4 digits?)

 

[Taunton]

I've always been surprised with this approach that we haven't had issues of scammers, with hand-held "skimming" units, masquerading as plain clothes inspectors and working through skimming the trainload.

 

[swt_passenger]

One exception: on buses they can tell, because the ticket machine records part of the card number (last 4 digits?)

Yes, that’s how its been explained a few times previously.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes I would suggest that a polite letter to TfL expressing your concern at what happened would be appropriate in this situation and asking that TfL will undertake to make sure the inspector is given some retraining would be appropriate.

Isnt this more likely a TOC (GTR) problem?

 

[ainsworth74]

Isnt this more likely a TOC (GTR) problem?

Sorry yes, got my wires crossed

 

[matt_world2004]

There is a flaw where cards can become hoti listed mid trip. It usually happens when a touch in occurs during the reconciliation period.Ie overnight or early morning it takes longer than expected for tfl to get the money from the bank and an auto block is put on the card.

 

[miami]

He clearly needs some retraining...

Is that it? Slandering someone and it's retraining?

How about statutory fines for the TOCs for "honest mistakes". £100 first offence, then increasing exponentially.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is that it? Slandering someone and it's retraining?

How about statutory fines for the TOCs for "honest mistakes". £100 first offence, then increasing exponentially.

As much as it'd be "correct" it's not going to happen.

 

[30907]

Is that it? Slandering someone and it's retraining?

Does there not have to be a third party involved for it to be slander - like "publication" in libel?

 

[MikeWh]

One exception: on buses they can tell, because the ticket machine records part of the card number (last 4 digits?)

It records the whole card number in encrypted form.

 

[miami]

Does there not have to be a third party involved for it to be slander - like "publication" in libel?

I'm assuming there were other passengers in earshot. I too been on the receive end of slanderous accusations of fare evasion in the past, it annoys me no end that the railway get away with this type of behaviour with nothing more than at most a letter saying "we have dropped the matter".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm assuming there were other passengers in earshot. I too been on the receive end of slanderous accusations of fare evasion in the past, it annoys me no end that the railway get away with this type of behaviour with nothing more than at most a letter saying "we have dropped the matter".

I had similar from a TfL bus inspector, who came back somewhat tail between his legs when he found out that I had in fact touched in and the reason for not having registered as such was that the driver had not correctly set the information in the ticket machine until just before he departed Euston (it started there) rather than having done it before opening the doors as he should.

This happens all over the railway now, particularly with "rentathug" security guards doing revenue rather than properly trained professional RPIs and companies who are no better than parking sharks (like TIL) chasing penalties and prosecutions.

It's why I believe they should have all legal powers removed from them in this regard (both RoRA and Byelaw); they cannot be trusted to apply them fairly. Give it the same legal force as a private parking ticket and see how they like that. ScotRail seems to cope.

 

[reb0118]

ScotRail seems to cope.

It copes by denying there is a problem. Fare evasion is rife - albeit for short journeys. The TIR (Ticket Irregularity Report) system is not fit for purpose and the Fraud & Security team were disbanded. If you are travelling to an unbarriered station payment is optional. If you are travelling to a barriered station you may have to wait until somebody uses the wide access gates to tailgate or use one of the strategically placed pieces of station furniture to climb the fence.

Previously on a two or three car train I could make a good stab at collecting most of the revenue - even between single stops. Now with six & eight coaches where the doors open before I can step out it is much harder to a) see where your passengers board, b) identify the demographic to judge the likelihood of having a ticket or not, c) physically reach them in time (seconds do matter), and d) make them pay before the doors open again even if you do get to them.

Revenue protection in Scotland is a farce.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It copes by denying there is a problem. Fare evasion is rife - albeit for short journeys. The TIR (Ticket Irregularity Report) system is not fit for purpose and the Fraud & Security team were disbanded. If you are travelling to an unbarriered station payment is optional. If you are travelling to a barriered station you may have to wait until somebody uses the wide access gates to tailgate or use one of the strategically placed pieces of station furniture to climb the fence.

Previously on a two or three car train I could make a good stab at collecting most of the revenue - even between single stops. Now with six & eight coaches where the doors open before I can step out it is much harder to a) see where your passengers board, b) identify the demographic to judge the likelihood of having a ticket or not, c) physically reach them in time (seconds do matter), and d) make them pay before the doors open again even if you do get to them.

Revenue protection in Scotland is a farce.

The question is, how much extra effort, "man"power and thus cost would be expended in recovering the last few percent (speaking on average) of lost revenue?

Perhaps Scotland has sensibly concluded that railways serve a social rather than a commercial purpose, and ultimately whilst fares help to reduce the subsidy, railways (especially in Scotland) will always require a massive subsidy.

And that it's not worth giving people criminal records and potentially ruining their careers or immigration status over a few million extra pounds in subsidy.

 

[reb0118]

Not wishing to go too far off topic but if they just got on, sat down, shut up, and generally behaved like normal people it would not be so bad. However these "non paying customers" as we were once asked to call them (with no hint of irony) actually cost us much more than the mere fare. They leave their detritus all over the coaching stock & stations. They are loud, antagonistic, & generally anti social. They deter normal fare paying passengers from travelling. In short scum. Ruining careers? They have no careers to speak of - unless the supply of weed is an essential career as invariably they absolutely stink of it. Immigration? They are home grown so they are at no risk of deportation (I generally find no issues with our immigrant population as they are generally well behaved).

But you are right it is deemed to cost too much to sort out the problem. The delay costs alone would be prohibitive - but there is a far greater cost to society by doing nothing.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Not wishing to go too far off topic but if they just got on, sat down, shut up, and generally behaved like normal people it would not be so bad. However these "non paying customers" as we were once asked to call them (with no hint of irony) actually cost us much more than the mere fare. They leave their detritus all over the coaching stock & stations. They are loud, antagonistic, & generally anti social. They deter normal fare paying passengers from travelling. In short scum. Ruining careers? They have no careers to speak of - unless the supply of weed is an essential career as invariably they absolutely stink of it. Immigration? They are home grown so they are at no risk of deportation (I generally find no issues with our immigrant population as they are generally well behaved).

But you are right it is deemed to cost too much to sort out the problem. The delay costs alone would be prohibitive - but there is a far greater cost to society by doing nothing.

It seems to me that the kind of passengers you refer to should be investigated and dealt with for the ancillary offences you refer to (drug dealing, anti-social behaviour, littering) in that case. If that isn't being done, that is surely an issue with the effectiveness of the BTP or local police rather than with the fares and enforcement thereof.

After all, you get such behaviour even on systems that have high levels of revenue enforcement, such as the London Underground.

The kind of people I refer to who are caught out (and often punished well beyond what is justifiable given the scale of their "crime") are typically those who would post to the Disputes & Prosecutions section here.

 

[SteveM70]

Previously on a two or three car train I could make a good stab at collecting most of the revenue - even between single stops. Now with six & eight coaches where the doors open before I can step out it is much harder to a) see where your passengers board, b) identify the demographic to judge the likelihood of having a ticket or not, c) physically reach them in time (seconds do matter), and d) make them pay before the doors open again even if you do get to them.

Is profiling a corporate policy or just your own way of working?

 

[reb0118]

Is profiling a corporate policy or just your own way of working?

I base it on age, dress, behaviour on the platform, & a myriad of other factors that it's hard to explain in words. You get a strong feeling which types of passengers will cause you grief and which don't. I'm not always correct - but I'm not often wrong.

 

[PupCuff]

Is profiling a corporate policy or just your own way of working?

It's very easy to see what reb0118 wrote as 'profiling', and it can be quite difficult to explain to those without a railway background, but in so many cases those travelling without a ticket make themselves so blindingly obvious it's like they give off a scent. It is perhaps body language, it is perhaps behaviour, I'm not sure how I'd describe it. You just, know.

 

[PeterC]

It's very easy to see what reb0118 wrote as 'profiling', and it can be quite difficult to explain to those without a railway background, but in so many cases those travelling without a ticket make themselves so blindingly obvious it's like they give off a scent. It is perhaps body language, it is perhaps behaviour, I'm not sure how I'd describe it. You just, know.

Same for revenue protection in any business. I have run the security at concerts and festivals and quickly learned to recognise the problem characters in much the same way.

Neither skin colour not mode of dress come into it. It is purely a matter of body language. I can't describe it either but with experience you just know.

 

[_toommm_]

Same for revenue protection in any business. I have run the security at concerts and festivals and quickly learned to recognise the problem characters in much the same way.

Neither skin colour not mode of dress come into it. It is purely a matter of body language. I can't describe it either but with experience you just know.

I can concur. When someone comes to me wanting to buy currency, or open a new line of credit, I can normally tell within the first 30 seconds if I want to manually push the application for further checks, or if I feel that it isn't a legitimate transaction or application.

 

[PBarnesHST]

I found out yesterday that while they can't check cards in real time, when their terminal scans your card, it puts another zero-value transaction on there like the transaction that happens when you touch in in the first place. Then, overnight, when the balances are reconciled and the day's fares deducted, if it turns out that card wasn't used to touch in before before the inspector checked it, it takes off a Revenue Inspection Charge (the equivalent of, but different to a Penalty Fare.)

In response to an FoI about this Revenue Inspection Charge they responded "When, as a consequence of revenue inspection activity, we detect that a customer had not touched in at the start of their journey when using a contactless payment card, the inspection event will result in the customer being charged a maximum Oyster fare (as referenced in the TfL Conditions of Carriage available via the following link. [1]http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-an…, being issued with a Penalty Fare Notice or referred for prosecution.”

Src: https://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/2014/07/contactless-questions/

 

[najaB]

Perhaps Scotland has sensibly concluded that railways serve a social rather than a commercial purpose, and ultimately whilst fares help to reduce the subsidy, railways (especially in Scotland) will always require a massive subsidy.

If we had the power to launch private prosecutions then I have no doubt that the train operator would use it.

 

[matt_world2004]

I found out yesterday that while they can't check cards in real time, when their terminal scans your card, it puts another zero-value transaction on there like the transaction that happens when you touch in in the first place. Then, overnight, when the balances are reconciled and the day's fares deducted, if it turns out that card wasn't used to touch in before before the inspector checked it, it takes off a Revenue Inspection Charge (the equivalent of, but different to a Penalty Fare.)

In response to an FoI about this Revenue Inspection Charge they responded "When, as a consequence of revenue inspection activity, we detect that a customer had not touched in at the start of their journey when using a contactless payment card, the inspection event will result in the customer being charged a maximum Oyster fare (as referenced in the TfL Conditions of Carriage available via the following link. [1]http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-an…, being issued with a Penalty Fare Notice or referred for prosecution.”

Src: https://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/2014/07/contactless-questions/

Personally I think the Revenue inspection charge should be the same as the penalty fare if paid within 14 days this would add a degree of consistency to contactless revenue inspections. There is the facility to do this, as the fares to reading demonstrate.

 

[MikeWh]

Personally I think the Revenue inspection charge should be the same as the penalty fare if paid within 14 days this would add a degree of consistency to contactless revenue inspections. There is the facility to do this, as the fares to reading demonstrate.

This question was asked in an FOI request a while ago. Whilst the ability to charge such amounts exist, the legal framework to levy a penalty fare is not there. This may in part be because penalty fares are charged by relevant TOCs at different rates to TfL concessions. My understanding is that one TOC nearly scuppered the whole contactless on National Rail project because they wanted more than an incomplete journey charge levied.