Can platform staff hold a train (within reason)?

[TPO]

It would be reasonable to expect the train to be held.

However, no amount of arguing about it will change the fact that it won't be held for you in these circumstances. If one were to imply to your wife that it might be held then I'm afraid that would be setting a very unrealistic expectation.

If that means that your wife drives instead of paying to use the train, the response from the railway industry is, currently, so be it.

In any case, the platform staff themselves have no particular influence over what happens anyway. Your complaint needs to be taken up with management, but it is very unlikely to reach th by speaking to station staff or writing to customer services. If you get in touch with your MP's office, and ask them to challenge the policy at CrossCountry or GWR on holding train connections on your behalf, you may get further. But equally, don't expect anything to change as a result of one complaint.

And this is why many of us use the car not get the train. In a changed situation where the railway cannot rely on commuters (with no alternative) maybe the thinking needs to change.

Best advice to the OP is, should the same issue occur again, ask the guard on your initial service if they can request a hold. Staff do not do this sort of thing automatically. A train coming into Bristol from the 'Beach in the AM peak will likely have passengers for an array of destinations. There will almost certainly have been folk aiming to make the 8.30 Paddington train, plus a whole host of other connections, valid or otherwise. It simply isn't feasible to be guessing at people's intended journeys and holding every train in Bristol at half 8 in the morning just in case. As to the platform staff, they are kept very busy indeed at a station like Temple Meads, besides dispatching they are continuously fielding enquiries from folk already on the platform. It isn't their role to monitor every train in and out to see what's on time and guess at which trains to delay for connections.

You said that your train was delayed due to the service heading in the opposite direction running late. And there you have the perfect example of how delays can spread across the network, and why it isn't a simple case of holding on to a train for a couple of minutes. Had that other service not been delayed, and who knows why that was, your train would have been on time. Had the XC been delayed to wait for your service, that is one late running service turning into three. And so on!

So.

The passenger has first to realise themselves the train is late compared to its schedule down the line from where they boarded, have an understanding of any recovery time or not, etc.

The passenger then has to take it on themselves to go and find the guard, who with units multipled together may be wholly inaccessible.

The passenger also has to know their guard could do something about maintaining a tight connection, a service which is not advertised anywhere.

The guard then has to try and get through to Swindon Control and request this.

In this case Swindon Control now has to try and get through to Cross Country control in Birmingham, because apparently despite GWR being in charge of dispatch at Bristol, they are not - if it's a different company's train.

Cross Country Control then has to try and get through to someone (their guard?) to say hold the train.

That's not going to all work in a few minutes, is it?

Let me tell you how it used to work in the 1960s on the Taunton-Minehead branch. The guard would notice passengers joining the train at Minehead with heavy luggage, or chat to the porter, that there were passengers connecting to The Devonian at Taunton. If delayed on the branch, the guard would shout to the platform porter at Bishops Lydeard (notice proactively, doesn't have to be told) "Tell 'em to hold the Devvy a bit, people for Leeds". The porter would phone directly to the Up platform inspector at Taunton (notice trusted to do this directly, no need to go through two levels of Control), who would send a porter down to the branch bay to assist with any luggage. All in, off a few minutes late. Full regulator, fireman shovels a bit more, back on time at Bristol. This wasn't Thomas the Tank Engine, it was how things were actually run then.

If there's connections, it shouldn't be up to the passenger to try to manage problems....... and if the connection is always tight/incoming train late a lot then the train planning needs looking at.

The irony would be that if the OP explained Delay Repay to his wife and she still chose to drive in future, only to be delayed on the motorway. Could someone remind me how much compensation Highways England pay drivers for delays caused by roadwork, accidents, et al?

I drive a lot and it's rare to have a delay that you were not warned about- the roadside dot matrix signs, travel news bulletins and the Google Maps live traffic feed all work well although of course you do get "ramdom roadworks roulette" once the hour of 20:00 strikes.......

In any case, being stuck in a warm car with comfy seat and music (or in my Big Van with full facilities for a brew, loo etc) is a mile better than being stuck on a cold metal bench on a dark windswept platform at night with the waiting rooms and toilets closed.

Most people who travel a lot just want to get to where they are going, and in general would prefer a comfy reliable journey rather than compensation for a delay.

If we want to attract people out of cars onto trains we need to be identifying and solving some basic issues like comfort, connections and customer service- not making excuses.

TPO

 

[Taunton]

Could someone remind me how much compensation Highways England pay drivers for delays caused by roadwork, accidents, et al?

The amount of incident delay on roads is exaggerated by those who do not use them. Only yesterday (Tuesday) I did a substantial mileage by both rail and road, including crossing the Pennines and back by the M62 road in zero temperatures. There was one annoying delay, guess where, on rail - on the Underground in London, the platform edge doors at Canary Wharf station failed in the morning peak and backed up the Jubilee Line, such that I had to retrace steps. I can't recall the last time I was delayed by road; it certainly happens, but rail, especially nowadays, seems more susceptible to it.

 

[AlterEgo]

The amount of incident delay on roads is exaggerated by those who do not use them. Only yesterday (Tuesday) I did a substantial mileage by both rail and road, including crossing the Pennines and back by the M62 road in zero temperatures. There was one annoying delay, guess where, on rail - on the Underground in London, the platform edge doors at Canary Wharf station failed in the morning peak and backed up the Jubilee Line, such that I had to retrace steps. I can't recall the last time I was delayed by road; it certainly happens, but rail, especially nowadays, seems more susceptible to it.

You must be magic because I am almost always delayed on a 75 mile trip to my parents, by heavy traffic, an accident, a police incident, you name it. The railway is a much more reliable way to travel.

 

[Western Sunset]

But don't platform staff have access to how trains are running (see photo). As mentioned above, with a reduction in service frequencies, maybe connections (or the lack of) need to be taken more seriously, both in control and on the actual platform.

 

[seagull]

I can't recall the last time I was delayed by road; it certainly happens, but rail, especially nowadays, seems more susceptible to it.

I can't recall the last time I WASN'T delayed by a road journey: as in, the time stated at the start by my Satnav was the time I arrived. Sometimes it's only 5-10 minutes, other times it's far worse, in one case not long ago by 3 hours, and another one of about 2 hours delay. And bear in mind car journeys don't have connections to blame, either.

By contrast my last 10 long distance rail journeys including connections have had 6 which were on time arriving (almost to the second), 3 which were around 5 minutes late and 1 which was 15 minutes late. Avoided one journey that would have been 1-2 hours delayed by postponing travel to the following day.

 

[The Planner]

Some very unlucky drivers on here!

 

[43096]

But don't platform staff have access to how trains are running (see photo).

Not when they are actually dispatching a train, no.

As mentioned above, with a reduction in service frequencies, maybe connections (or the lack of) need to be taken more seriously, both in control and on the actual platform.

That way lies chaos. You can't have it both ways of a right-time railway and "can you just hold on a minute" connections. It may not be great for the two people arriving on the branchline from Dunny-on-the-Wold missing their connection, but what about the 250 people already on the connection who if held that minute their train may miss its path (e.g. through the Birmingham Cross-City line) and end up 20 minutes late as a result. In brutal terms that ends up as 5000 passenger delay minutes vs 120 passenger delay minutes. Not a difficult decision, really.

 

[Darandio]

Some very unlucky drivers on here!

Some very unlucky passengers as well!

 

[tspaul26]

Actually EMT were not their competitor on that route. Legally, they were a subcontractor: I had bought the ticket from East Coast (the operator at the time), so my contract was with them. If a subcontractor falls down on the job, it is the responsibility of the main contractor to sort it out, not the client.

I'm afraid this isn't true. The NRCoT make clear where the lines of contract lie, they are between the ticket holder and the companies on whose trains they may use the ticket.

Indeed. East Coast act as principal in respect of their services and agent for the other TOCs in respect of theirs. The contract is with both TOCs and there is no question of ‘sub-contracting’.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Some very unlucky drivers on here!

It perhaps depends where you live. Soon after moving to the Peak District I realised that you had to add 20 minutes contingency to even the shortest of journeys - livestock, farm traffic, large vehicle 'stand-offs' on roads too narrow for passing, untreated roads, flooding, landslips, trees down, road works, sometimes 15-mile diversions or more, etc. Ironically not usually what you would typically think of as 'traffic jams' or 'gridlock' although some of the tourist hotspots have their moments.

And as for sat-navs. They seem to have been programmed by someone who has used the performance characteristics of a 1,200cc motorbike at three o'clock in the morning, right up to the legal limit. Certainly never had to follow a peloton of cyclists up a 1 in 4 hill, regularly encounter equestrians, thick fog, blind summits, school buses, bin lorries and so on on winding roads hemmed in by dry stone walls.

Whereas with the train you can at least check that it has never left Manchester or Sheffield and just give up or wait an hour from the comfort of your own home.

 

[RJ]

On occasion if I've been on a staffed train that's going to miss a connection, I've spoken to the guard and they've always been great with sorting something out. I'd only bother if I was going to miss the last train of the day, or be delayed by over 2 hours though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Let me tell you how it used to work in the 1960s on the Taunton-Minehead branch.

How did it use to work in the 1960s on the Avonmouth branch for connections at Temple Meads to northbound cross country trains?

But as soon as more than one commercial organisation is concerned and the "wooden dollars" become real ones, the lawyers and accountants have to be involved

In the entire time I have been involved in such matters (25 years+), I have never known a lawyer to be involved in delay attribution.

But don't platform staff have access to how trains are running (see photo). As mentioned above, with a reduction in service frequencies, maybe connections (or the lack of) need to be taken more seriously, both in control and on the actual platform.

Some do, some don’t. Even those that do won’t be able to constantly, as they are busy helping passengers in person / dispatching trains.

 

[Horizon22]

If there's connections, it shouldn't be up to the passenger to try to manage problems....... and if the connection is always tight/incoming train late a lot then the train planning needs looking at.

But don't platform staff have access to how trains are running (see photo). As mentioned above, with a reduction in service frequencies, maybe connections (or the lack of) need to be taken more seriously, both in control and on the actual platform.

Connections at a multi-platform station like Bristol (in the peak) could be any combination of directions from any combination of directions., it is completely unfeasible to know what they all might be, even if you do know what are the traditional flows. And then which ones should be held? And which of the connections on that held train should be held later on? It becomes a minefield.

As many have pointed out, the railway does have connectional policies in certain places (in fact GWR have many on their Devon and Cornwall branches) which are applied almost daily. But it cannot handle every situation without also impacting a lot of other passengers. Passengers are said to want the same thing but in reality they don't and actually their demands with regards to timetables and connections in a local area can often be completely contradictory!

 

[Western Sunset]

But the Severn Beach train was the only late arrival around that time. Surely it's possible to quickly check if any passengers were bound for the departure at the adjacent platform? Maybe it all boiled down to how proactive (or not) the guard on the late-running Severn Beach train was.

 

[Taunton]

How did it use to work in the 1960s on the Avonmouth branch for connections at Temple Meads to northbound cross country trains?

Well, then it was even more straightforward than now, as the Severn Beach trains used to arrive at the platform in the "old station", directly cross-platform from the tip of the main Up departure platfrom, used by any through trains to the north. in fact they used to stop right across from the just-changed locomotive, the easiest connection of all. The northbound train couldn't start to be got away until the Severn Beach train had arrived because the latter used to cross it's path right there to get onto the old Midland line exit from Bristol.

Sorry about that one @BR! Personal oversight by self at the end of that same Bristol platform, same time, used to be the favoured enthsiasts' lair, right there.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

So on the topic of unauthorised holds, has anyone ever felt the need to help out a fellow passenger? Helping someone who you can see running full tilt over a bridge to catch the train you've just jumped on or been on for any length of time?
Or a elderly person who trying to make the same connection as you but is struggling with the stairs/lifts?
I know my foot has got in the way of the sensor on a couple of occasions when the guard has made the decision to close the doors, and my door miraculously doesn't close allowing just enough time for someone to make the train. The good part is 10-20 second door blockages don't generally get picked up on the onboard CCTV quickly enough for you to get in trouble.

But equally the reverse of that has often happened too, where I've seen someone running far far too late for a train (to the point I know a 10 second foot in the door isn't gonna work), the doors have closed, the person runs to the train just as it pulls off and hits the train in anger and then has thrown their shopping or bags across the platform, it's normally satifying me and my fellow carriage mates (passengers) just laugh at the anger of person weirdly too.

 

[DorkingMain]

The same happened to me at Weybridge a week ago. Slight delays on train from Addlestone. We run into the bay platform at the same time as the main line train on the opposite face. Off we get to be confronted by closing doors from the guard despatched train. Cue 30 mins extra waiting and a complaint to SWT. Madness, and this was 20:12, not morning or evening peak. I was spitting feathers because it was so unnecessary. 15 seconds would have been enough.

Sorry but there's no way it's reasonable to expect a company to hold the 20:12 departure after a 20:10 arrival.

 

[skyhigh]

Sorry but there's no way it's reasonable to expect a company to hold the 20:12 departure after a 20:10 arrival.

Exactly- minimum connection time at Weybridge is 5 minutes. If you make a shorter connection that's a bonus, if not you can't really get angry over it...

 

[Manclad83]

You just missed your connection. Unfortunate but that’s just the way it was on the day.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

As a train dispatcher unless I am authorised to I cannot hold a train. What I do is in the evenings when my company’s trains are running late and will miss last connections to somewhere on another company, I will phone the guard on my trains and find out how many passengers there are that have got further connections. Then I can call my control and ask for them to request a hold. That’s as much as I can do, and that’s as much as the other dispatchers can do.
If you miss your connection, please don’t take it out on staff on the platform. Remember they’re just doing their job.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Fine. Then why, given the fact that Weybridge, of itself is not the primary destination in those parts, is the timetable worked to provide such a short connection time? In this specific situation there has, from time immemorial, been a connection at Weybridge off the Chertsey Line. I am sorry about the platform staff, but I am less than sorry about the Guard who decided to inconvenience a group of people. I can drive next time, and probably will. Most of my fellow passengers could not.

 

[voyagerdude220]

but I am less than sorry about the Guard who decided to inconvenience a group of people. I can drive next time, and probably will. Most of my fellow passengers could not.

So.. "How dare the Guard ensure his/her train departed on time, providing good customer service to those who were able to board the train on time?"

Cue 30 mins extra waiting and a complaint to SWT.

On what basis are you complaining to SWT? Yes it would be great if your journey was faster had you made the unofficial connection- but SWT never planned to provide you with this at the point of you purchasing your ticket/planning your journey.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

Fine. Then why, given the fact that Weybridge, of itself is not the primary destination in those parts, is the timetable worked to provide such a short connection time? In this specific situation there has, from time immemorial, been a connection at Weybridge off the Chertsey Line. I am sorry about the platform staff, but I am less than sorry about the Guard who decided to inconvenience a group of people. I can drive next time, and probably will. Most of my fellow passengers could not.

How long do you want between trains? Should every train connect with every train? That’s impossible. In every timetable there will be winners and losers.

 

[seagull]

I am sorry about the platform staff, but I am less than sorry about the Guard who decided to inconvenience a group of people.

And yet if you were the group of people already ON the train who had connections to make further down the line, you would be thanking the guard for having ensured the train stayed on time.

See, that's the problem. People on trains with connections want the train to run on time. People on late trains with connections want other trains to be made late too.
No pleasing everyone.

 

[matt_world2004]

One thing that really irritates me is when a train on the tfl Rail has to serve a different platform at short notice. (Eg a swap at platform 4-Platform 2 at hayes) often no anouncement is made and the train leaves on time despite people crossing the footbridge. GwR used to wait to give time for people to cross the footbridge in the event of unplanned platform alterations.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

OK. I give up. The connection that was existed for a long time is irrelevant. That the train can be seen coming in the other platform, with a cross platform connection is irrelevant, that the main line train would still not have been late; it would still have left at 20:12 is irrelevant.

 

[matt_world2004]

Is there going to be less or more of an incentive to hold connections under GBR

 

[jfowkes]

I'm now wondering how many knock-on delay minutes I've personally caused simply by having to run down the side of a train frantically looking for the bike space.

 

[norbitonflyer]

So.. "How dare the Guard ensure his/her train departed on time, providing good customer service to those who were able to board the train on time?"

And atrocious service to those who, THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, were unable to do so.

In the days of slam-door trains and no central locking, of course, such connections would be made as a matter of course because the despatcher and/or guard wouldn't give the right away as the passengers were crossing from a connecting service because of the likelihood that someone would probably fling open a door unless the train was actually moving (and probably even if it was)

 

[seagull]

that the main line train would still not have been late; it would still have left at 20:12 is irrelevant.

Actually, your train arrived at 20:12 and that train departed already 1 minute late at 20:13, it could have "allowed you on" but then what about the passenger less able-bodied who hollers at the guard to "wait for me too", then before you know it, the train is 2-3 minutes late or more and that's enough to completely mess up its path into London, or delay other trains in turn who then cause connections to be missed.

It would be possible to do things more like in the Netherlands where connections generally do get held for a short period (or used to) but then the sacrifice is that trains are given a lot of dwell time at principal stations to make up for that. Making an overall fairly slow journey.

Mind you, I often think people would prefer slower but punctual and reliable to faster and prone to delays, but just my opinion.