Can Revenue override a Guard

[trainophile]

I’ll start by saying I know I don’t officially have a leg to stand on, Advance tickets are cheap for a reason.

However, my plans genuinely changed for today, after I’d already bought a ticket - a meeting of the flat owners at my block was called last week for this afternoon, which I really should attend.

Therefore I got to New Street in time for the 11:34 to Liverpool, with a ticket for the 12:34. Waited ages for the guard to appear, chatting with a lovely customer assistance lady who when I explained said she would ask for me, which she did.

Eventually the guard appeared, and she flat refused to let me board, saying that if Revenue get on I will get a £100 fine. I asked if guards didn’t have the authority to allow my request, and she said no. She didn’t seem in the mood to argue with so I had to let it go.

So here I am on the 12:34, and will hopefully just make the meeting with a rush. Fair enough, I could have paid four times as much for a flexible ticket, and would have booked an earlier one if I’d known about the meeting, but I do wonder whether a RPI could have caused her trouble if she had permitted me to board. I was always of the impression that a guard had some authority and discretion in such a situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a guard gives you permission to travel, then you cannot be PFed or prosecuted because you have been allowed travel by an authorised member of staff.

However, a guard does not have to give that permission, and it is quite possible that they have been specifically instructed not to do so outside of disruption.

In short, you can ask but you have to accept "no" gracefully.

 

[6Gman]

The Guard has authority to permit travel, but is under no obligation to do so.

I wonder if :

a) she has had criticism in the past for being overly generous;
b) there is a TOC policy to limit such permission to genuine disruption?

After all, there is a revenue loss if such permissions are widely granted.

 

[LowLevel]

Can revenue overrule the guard in terms of revoking the permission given?

No, but they could report them if they decided that the permission had been given inappropriately for some reason. However that would be most unusual.

If the guard says no, they say no though - I've refused requests in the past in similar circumstances where someone has said "but they said I can ask you", and my response has been along the lines of "yes, you can ask, but unfortunately the answer is no".

If someone takes the time to ask and their request is reasonable then I generally will agree (the example above most recently was because I'd turned up with 2 carriages instead of 4 and didn't want any more passengers I could avoid) - but the whole point of advance purchase ticket is to tie you to a quotation controlled place on a train and too many people it seems have gotten used to buying them anyway and just turning up asking to use them on different trains - which is OK provided you don't get salty if the ticket inspector says no.

 

[methecooldude]

If someone takes the time to ask and their request is reasonable then I generally will agree (the example above most recently was because I'd turned up with 2 carriages instead of 4 and didn't want any more passengers I could avoid) - but the whole point of advance purchase ticket is to tie you to a quotation controlled place on a train and too many people it seems have gotten used to buying them anyway and just turning up asking to use them on different trains - which is OK provided you don't get salty if the ticket inspector says no.

Indeed, out of Waterloo we have 5 cars regularly between 1900 and 2100. I constantly decline early advances on these services, as they get packed as it is. The amount of people that get salty is amazing...

 

[trainophile]

Yes, all fair comments, and I did accept her decision with good grace. I was just a bit surprised as the customer assistant had already established that the train was far from full, although I imagine the present Wolverhampton situation was in her mind.

Okay, some you win…

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, all fair comments, and I did accept her decision with good grace. I was just a bit surprised as the customer assistant had already established that the train was far from full, although I imagine the present Wolverhampton situation was in her mind.

Okay, some you win…

To be fair some people are also just keen on tickets and will decline any request. Very much in the minority but they do exist. Only the person in question will really know their reasoning though!

 

[Spaceship323]

If you had a few minutes could you not go to the ticket office and pay the exess to change your advance ticket to an off peak? I know it doesn't answer your question but thought it may be an option

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you had a few minutes could you not go to the ticket office and pay the exess to change your advance ticket to an off peak?

£10+excess could be quite expensive, for a lot of WMT journeys it won't be cheaper than a new ticket.

 

[trainophile]

By the time the guard said no it was two minutes to departure.

The excess plus £10 would have been more than four times my ticket price!

We just had a delay at Winsford for a track inspection, on the move again now but it won’t help my timings! Oh well, it’s not the end of the world.

I think they are having a blitz. Two RPIs on now, they just took details from a couple of lads with no tickets!

Arrived at South Parkway 18 minutes late. Every cloud…

 

[telstarbox]

I had the same situation on Southeastern and the guard said no which is entirely their call. Went for a pint instead

 

[43066]

I’ll start by saying I know I don’t officially have a leg to stand on, Advance tickets are cheap for a reason.

However, my plans genuinely changed for today, after I’d already bought a ticket - a meeting of the flat owners at my block was called last week for this afternoon, which I really should attend.

Therefore I got to New Street in time for the 11:34 to Liverpool, with a ticket for the 12:34. Waited ages for the guard to appear, chatting with a lovely customer assistance lady who when I explained said she would ask for me, which she did.

Eventually the guard appeared, and she flat refused to let me board, saying that if Revenue get on I will get a £100 fine. I asked if guards didn’t have the authority to allow my request, and she said no. She didn’t seem in the mood to argue with so I had to let it go.

So here I am on the 12:34, and will hopefully just make the meeting with a rush. Fair enough, I could have paid four times as much for a flexible ticket, and would have booked an earlier one if I’d known about the meeting, but I do wonder whether a RPI could have caused her trouble if she had permitted me to board. I was always of the impression that a guard had some authority and discretion in such a situation.

Yes, guards do have discretion to allow anyone to travel, however in your case she had apparently decided not to exercise it, as she’s perfectly entitled to. The revenue reference was presumably to possibility or you being issued a penalty fare, which guards cannot issue but revenue can, which would have been an option, alongside potential prosecution, if you had travelled without a valid ticket, and without the guard’s permission.

Can revenue overrule the guard in terms of revoking the permission given?

No, but they could report them if they decided that the permission had been given inappropriately for some reason. However that would be most unusual.

If the guard says no, they say no though - I've refused requests in the past in similar circumstances where someone has said "but they said I can ask you", and my response has been along the lines of "yes, you can ask, but unfortunately the answer is no".

If someone takes the time to ask and their request is reasonable then I generally will agree (the example above most recently was because I'd turned up with 2 carriages instead of 4 and didn't want any more passengers I could avoid) - but the whole point of advance purchase ticket is to tie you to a quotation controlled place on a train and too many people it seems have gotten used to buying them anyway and just turning up asking to use them on different trains - which is OK provided you don't get salty if the ticket inspector says no.

The voice of reason.

I had the same situation on Southeastern and the guard said no which is entirely their call. Went for a pint instead

Always a good option. Perhaps even better than taking the earlier train …

To be fair some people are also just keen on tickets and will decline any request. Very much in the minority but they do exist. Only the person in question will really know their reasoning though!

There’s a couple of those on the IC side. They aren’t popular, and everyone dreads working with them. There’s no worse feeling than working a late evening train south and having to call York or Derby ROC, to tell them we won’t be moving for a while, because said guard is getting into yet another pointless Mexican standoff over a £10 fare .

 

[Watershed]

By the time the guard said no it was two minutes to departure.

The excess plus £10 would have been more than four times my ticket price!

We just had a delay at Winsford for a track inspection, on the move again now but it won’t help my timings! Oh well, it’s not the end of the world.

I think they are having a blitz. Two RPIs on now, they just took details from a couple of lads with no tickets!

Arrived at South Parkway 18 minutes late. Every cloud…

There are a number of retailers out there that wouldn't charge you any admin fee at all - you'd just pay the excess. But I agree, it's frustrating that WMT don't seem to offer (m)any Advances on the day of travel - they must be one of the last holdouts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I agree, it's frustrating that WMT don't seem to offer (m)any Advances on the day of travel - they must be one of the last holdouts.

Primarily because their business model is mostly walk-up tickets at excellent prices - and long may that be so. I can barely see any point in them selling Advances at all, but I guess a few people like them.

 

[rg177]

I don't think I've ever had a guard say no to a reasonable request to board an earlier/later train - years ago back on VTEC I even had a TM essentially tell two RPIs to back off and leave me alone when they pounced on me for having a ticket for a different TOC during disruption.

Mind, when I've been on a gateline, you would have colleagues that would snitch behind your back if you were too 'lenient' - at least once I had a colleague scream 'that's a Penalty Fare' over my shoulder as I was talking to someone who said they'd lost their ticket. So perhaps the guard has had a similar encounter with an overzealous member of revenue staff.

 

[43066]

Primarily because their business model is mostly walk-up tickets at excellent prices - and long may that be so. I can barely see any point in them selling Advances at all, but I guess a few people like them.

Their business model is being paid a fee to run the service specified by the DfT, while taking zero revenue risk. Anything else is simply due to grandfathering of preexisting arrangements.

 

[infobleep]

I have had a couple of instances where I wws allowed on other trains having missed my booked train. Being dyslexic I hadn't allowed enough time and in the first instance needed the loo prior to getting the train. I have health issues in that department too.

In the second instance I left something in a shop I seem to recall, so I kind of allowed tome but not quite enough. Having explained the situations though, I was let on board.

Another time, I accidentally got a train an hour early. My ticket was checked but thankfully nothing said. I only realised my mistake after the train had departed with me on it.

 

[Birmingham]

Missed two trains on separate XC and Avanti advances due to a bus to my origin station not turning up once. Allowed by both guards upon speaking to them before departure, no trouble at all. It does happen, would you believe.

 

[Bluejays]

I'm normally of the view that if someone takes the time to ask me then I'll say yes. Having said that, the guard doesn't need any 'justification ' to say no in that situation . I'm guessing the bit about revenue being onboard was a white lie. Although it may be that revenue were onboard and she wanted to let them do a proper check, rather than having to tell them 'oh, there's 2 people in carriage A I said could do this, there's someone in b with so and so ticket, etc'. That can really make life difficult

 

[185]

These few months, there are some extremely cheap advances at present doing the rounds on WM, many with a 50% sale discount applied leading to some astonishingly low prices. Perhaps this played a part in the decision - even if the guard didn't see the price - some tickets for the 3 hours length of the route are almost free.

At almost all companies, on board the train, the guard's decision is final. The one occasion an RPO tried to redact that discretionary decision, I did observe said RPO being ejected somewhat forcibly by said guard.

Except at TPE, they're just strange. IIRC "Oh get on, it's okay." Ding ding. "Now lets fine you".