Can the Desiro City be considered a failure?

[AventraFlex]

I'm unsure if this has been discussed elsewhere, possibly in Class 700 or Class 707 threads, and if it has I apologise in advance, but this has been on my mind for quite some time.

Given the influx of Aventra orders recently, and with the Class 701 replacing the 707 (still a brand new train), I'm starting to wonder if the Desiro Cities are successful or not.

Thoughts?

 

[Muzer]

Bombardier do seem to me that for a while they've been more popular than Siemens. They're probably cheaper, for a worse product

 

[D365]

This could become quite an extensive discussion, but I’m pretty clear as to what train you’re backing

Haven’t had the opportunity to spend much time on either train yet so I won’t have much to contribute until the 700s are fully rolled out on GN.

 

[47802]

Given there are many factors in deciding who gets a train order and not just on the actual train alone, including cost, delivery schedules, standardised fleet in some cases, potentially now some UK jobs and build content for public sector order etc etc.

Although Aventra has racked substancial orders now the Thameslink order was still the biggest single order by far, and Siemens pulled out of the Crossrail biding.

While the jury is still out on Aventra units in terms of reliability so far even if its early days, if Bombardier don't improve it fairly soon might have some impact on future orders

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With trains as with cars, televisions, popular music and pretty much anything, selling well doesn't mean a product is good and poor sales don't mean a product is bad. The class 151s were a failure but those old enough to remember riding them mostly seem to think they were far superior to the 150s. Whilst the 151s met a sorry end, some of their features found their way into later designs.

 

[AventraFlex]

Oh trust me, I'm not backing either train

I've actually only travelled on the 700, as I haven't had the opportunity to travel on the 345. And I forgot to mention the 717s going to GN, but I just see them as an add-on to TL's 700s.

But the popularity of the Aventras surprises me. I expected it from C2C, but I expected London Northwestern to order Desiro Cities rather than Aventras. The Electrostars in my opinion were ok, but I much preferred the original Desiros (except their traction motors)

 

[TheDavibob]

The Electrostars in my opinion were ok, but I much preferred the original Desiros (except their traction motors)

It is worth noting that, although most would agree the Desiro is a better train than the Electrostar, the Electrostar considerably outsold the Desiro. In part through their cost, at a guess -- which would transfer over to the Aventra. Even if the Desiro City *is* a better train than the Aventra, the higher price point probably vastly suppresses sales.

 

[Mikey C]

It is worth noting that, although most would agree the Desiro is a better train than the Electrostar, the Electrostar considerably outsold the Desiro. In part through their cost, at a guess -- which would transfer over to the Aventra. Even if the Desiro City *is* a better train than the Aventra, the higher price point probably vastly suppresses sales.

The Electrostar came out considerably before the UK Desiros so perhaps it's not unreasonable for it to outsell it, its first rival was the Coradia. Indeed if Alstom hadn't screwed that product up so badly, presumably SWT would have bought more 458 derivatives to replace its slam doors, and Siemens might never have got their big breakthrough in the UK...

 

[coppercapped]

I'm unsure if this has been discussed elsewhere, possibly in Class 700 or Class 707 threads, and if it has I apologise in advance, but this has been on my mind for quite some time.

Given the influx of Aventra orders recently, and with the Class 701 replacing the 707 (still a brand new train), I'm starting to wonder if the Desiro Cities are successful or not.

Thoughts?

What on earth do you mean by 'successful?

Is it: Sales? Profitability? Miles per technical incident? Specific weight per passenger? Cost? Maintenance costs? What?

 

[mushroomchow]

Bombardier (nee Adtranz) have always enjoyed a greater level of investment from TOCs in the privatisation era.

It's pretty much because their domestic location and established supply chain means they can churn out units quickly and at a lower cost. Most of us here would probably place alternatives from other manufacturers above their trains in 9/10 comparisons , but they keep getting orders because they're cheap, relatively reliable and can be on the rails quickly.

Desiros > Electrostars
Adelantes > Voyagers
185s <?> Turbostars (I prefer 185s personally, but I know Turbostars remain fairly popular)

And of course, the jury is still out on 700s vs. Aventras, though I can see the latter winning that - all they have to do is put in half-decent seats!

It will be interesting to see how the Stadler units go down on GA - they've looked like cracking trains from what I've seen so far, and it's going to be a great chance to compare them directly with Aventras on a single network. The internal seating plan on the 345s for GA looks absolutely appalling, so I fully expect the FLIRTS to be more popular with passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is worth noting that, although most would agree the Desiro is a better train than the Electrostar, the Electrostar considerably outsold the Desiro. In part through their cost, at a guess -- which would transfer over to the Aventra. Even if the Desiro City *is* a better train than the Aventra, the higher price point probably vastly suppresses sales.

From a passenger's point of view, the Aventra seems a markedly higher quality train than the Electrostar - the Crossrail units seem to have very few rattles and loose panels for example.

 

[bramling]

I'm unsure if this has been discussed elsewhere, possibly in Class 700 or Class 707 threads, and if it has I apologise in advance, but this has been on my mind for quite some time.

Given the influx of Aventra orders recently, and with the Class 701 replacing the 707 (still a brand new train), I'm starting to wonder if the Desiro Cities are successful or not.

Thoughts?

It all depends on your definition of failure, plus a lot is down to the specification of the train.

The class 700 is highly unpopular with passengers, but how much of that is down to the DFT's specification? The horrible seats can be blamed on various factors, but something like the floor ducting is a design issue.

Certainly from an order book perspective the Aventra is doing better, and it seems the 707s are turning out to be a white elephant (for now at least). But again this is more down to the industry structure than the product.

Then you have the question of deployment. A class 700 isn't too bad on something like the Sutton loop (ironically a route not envisaged to be part of Thameslink!), but far less so on runs to Littlehampton or Peterborough. The 345 has a similar compromise - fine for Shenfield, much less so for runs out to Reading. Again hard to make judgements on the train when perhaps they're not being deployed on the most suitable services.

Finally, it's too early to tell on reliability yet. Both types have had a rocky start, and Siemens seem to be making a trend of this, as various recent types have had teething issues. Bombardier have had the advantage that many of their recent introductions have been based on a very long established platform. It's way too early to make judgements on long term performance.

Having said all that, it does appear as things stand at the moment that the Aventra is leading the race. Time will tell if things stay that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The floor ducting is an interesting point. My preference would be for none at all so I can sit straight in the window seat, with heating being provided in a different way such as pre-mixed blown air rather than heat from the floor and cold from the ceiling, but if there must be *any* ducting I'd rather it was larger and flat so my foot can be placed on top of it. So I prefer the Class 700 ducting over the Electrostar ducting.

 

[hwl]

Oh trust me, I'm not backing either train

I've actually only travelled on the 700, as I haven't had the opportunity to travel on the 345. And I forgot to mention the 717s going to GN, but I just see them as an add-on to TL's 700s.

But the popularity of the Aventras surprises me. I expected it from C2C, but I expected London Northwestern to order Desiro Cities rather than Aventras. The Electrostars in my opinion were ok, but I much preferred the original Desiros (except their traction motors)

Aventra has 20.xm 22.xm and 24.xm car length options hence you can easily go for 24m cars to replace 20m ones so you end up with a 10car 240m train instead of a 12 car one (4 fewer bogies, 4 fewer car end, etc.). The Siemens 23m option means you end up with a 10m shorter train which isn't going to help win bids when you need to maximise capacity.
Bombardier definitely benefited from the Aventra mk2 (Mk 1 didn't sell and they went back to the drawing board being later to market and better thought through.

 

[hwl]

The floor ducting is an interesting point. My preference would be for none at all so I can sit straight in the window seat, with heating being provided in a different way such as pre-mixed blown air rather than heat from the floor and cold from the ceiling, but if there must be *any* ducting I'd rather it was larger and flat so my foot can be placed on top of it. So I prefer the Class 700 ducting over the Electrostar ducting.

What about the Aventra's heated floors as an alternative?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about the Aventra's heated floors as an alternative?

That could be a good option. My main point is that if something is going to cause me to not be able to sit straight (i.e. impinge onto my foot space such that my foot cannot be directly below my knee) I'd like to be able to put my foot on it. If there's nothing there, even better

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'd suspect one reason for Bombardier's success with the Aventra may be down to pressure from the DfT to 'buy British' - it's a very good political point to make if a TOC supports British workers in Derby - German workers in Krefield less so.

 

[AventraFlex]

What on earth do you mean by 'successful?

Is it: Sales? Profitability? Miles per technical incident? Specific weight per passenger? Cost? Maintenance costs? What?

Perhaps I should've been more clear, though I was talking in terms of popularity with the passengers. As bramling said, the Desiro City have proven to be unpopular, though then again it's unfair to compare them with the Aventras as there is only one Aventra lurking about so far.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I'd suspect one reason for Bombardier's success with the Aventra may be down to pressure from the DfT to 'buy British' - it's a very good political point to make if a TOC supports British workers in Derby - German workers in Krefield less so.

Completly agree with the statement from Agent Squash... I completely disagree with the reason though. I am probably Desiro bias though

 

[bastien]

I'd suspect one reason for Bombardier's success with the Aventra may be down to pressure from the DfT to 'buy British' - it's a very good political point to make if a TOC supports British workers in Derby - German workers in Krefield less so.

Is the DfT allowed to do that? I thought OJEU notices and so on had to go out (at least for the time being).

 

[Agent_Squash]

Is the DfT allowed to do that? I thought OJEU notices and so on had to go out (at least for the time being).

The DfT has to do that, but the stock orders have been made (since IEP/Thameslink) by the traditional ROSCO on behalf of TOCs. The same rules don't apply here.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I also wonder how well the Desiro program as a whole, will fare under brexit. Perhaps companies are shy on orders, due to uncertainty over tariffs?

 

[Mikey C]

The DfT has to do that, but the stock orders have been made (since IEP/Thameslink) by the traditional ROSCO on behalf of TOCs. The same rules don't apply here.

ROSCOs are likely to be less influenced by issues of politics and local jobs, their concern is about having the right asset which can generate a return for as long as possible. Jobs and marginal constituencies are of no concern to them

 

[fgwrich]

I'd suspect one reason for Bombardier's success with the Aventra may be down to pressure from the DfT to 'buy British' - it's a very good political point to make if a TOC supports British workers in Derby - German workers in Krefield less so.

Sadly it wouldn't surprise me if that is a case either. I do remember there being a fallout from the Greater Anglia franchise between Abellio and Siemens, and Abellios compromise to Siemens was that if they take the West Coast franchise... Cue a few years later and we see the bizarre situation of relatively new-ish Siemens Desiro's being replaced already by Bombardier 'Aventras'. All this despite the fact that Siemens supply chain is greater in the UK Than Bombardiers, with Siemens owning many facilities themselves.

Of course, with CAF setting up shop here, Stadler finally entering the UK, Bombardier and Hitachi all making their presence in the UK being felt, what potentially is there left for poor Siemens / Alstom?

And I too fell that the 700 is a very good quality metro type EMU, just sadly let down by their poor specification from the DfT.

 

[Clansman]

Of course, with CAF setting up shop here, Stadler finally entering the UK, Bombardier and Hitachi all making their presence in the UK being felt, what potentially is there left for poor Siemens / Alstom?

As rhetorical as the question probably was, Glasgow?

 

[Agent_Squash]

ROSCOs are likely to be less influenced by issues of politics and local jobs, their concern is about having the right asset which can generate a return for as long as possible. Jobs and marginal constituencies are of no concern to them

But the TOCs are the ones specifying the stock, and with the amount of DfT influence (even though the DfT say they don’t get involved in rolling stock) there will certainly be pressure behind the scenes.

 

[Bungle965]

Sadly it wouldn't surprise me if that is a case either. I do remember there being a fallout from the Greater Anglia franchise between Abellio and Siemens, and Abellios compromise to Siemens was that if they take the West Coast franchise... Cue a few years later and we see the bizarre situation of relatively new-ish Siemens Desiro's being replaced already by Bombardier 'Aventras'. All this despite the fact that Siemens supply chain is greater in the UK Than Bombardiers, with Siemens owning many facilities themselves.

Of course, with CAF setting up shop here, Stadler finally entering the UK, Bombardier and Hitachi all making their presence in the UK being felt, what potentially is there left for poor Siemens / Alstom?

And I too fell that the 700 is a very good quality metro type EMU, just sadly let down by their poor specification from the DfT.

Alstom's inability to get back into the UK market is entirely their own making.
Sam

 

[Bald Rick]

It all depends on your definition of failure, plus a lot is down to the specification of the train.

The class 700 is highly unpopular with passengers...

A small minority of passengers.
Another small minority of passengers love them.

The rest couldn't give two hoots.

 

[bramling]

A small minority of passengers.
Another small minority of passengers love them.

The rest couldn't give two hoots.

This is not the feedback I’ve been hearing from GN station staff. Apparently they have been receiving a lot of negative comments, mainly about the seating. You may well be right that many don’t care, but it’s certainly a lot more than a small minority who hate them. There have been a fair few letters in my local paper too, which is quite something considering there are only two journeys each way at the moment.

Do we really think someone has initiated costly alterations to the interior simply to please just a “small minority” of passengers?

Same with the 387s - it’s still common to hear people commenting negatively about the hardness of the seats and the rough ride quality. Apart from that (and apart from the bizarre positioning of first class) the 387 actually isn’t too bad.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The 700s would have been near perfect if fitted with Grammer E3000s instead of ironing boards.