Cancelled due to ‘a short notice change to the timetable’

[Bletchleyite]

I get that to many staff it is just a job like any other and that it is not seen as a public service any more. The general public do not see it the same way, for them it is still a public service.

I wouldn't even say it was that - it's just that if you work for a company that's persistently rubbish you just lose the will to live and say "whatever" to pretty much anything. And unlike if you work, say, on the phones for an insurance company, you can't just easily go and get a job in a different, less rubbish insurance company - changing TOCs likely means a relocation and other major upheaval, and the destination one may be no better!

 

[43066]

Its not like they have chosen to keep serving the public, whilst targeting the management by not doing paperwork, returns, form filling, recording actions etc.

As noted above, this wouldn’t constitute lawful industrial action, so the above suggestion completely misrepresents the situation. There is no such choice available!

The fact some enthusiasts seem to believe railstaff should put “serving the public” above protection of their own Ts and Cs and pay is extraordinary.

I wouldn't even say it was that - it's just that if you work for a company that's persistently rubbish you just lose the will to live and say "whatever" to pretty much anything. And unlike if you work, say, on the phones for an insurance company, you can't just easily go and get a job in a different, less rubbish insurance company - changing TOCs likely means a relocation and other major upheaval, and the destination one may be no better!

Yep. When morale is low people won’t want to do favours or help out, and the railway industry is very heavily reliant on goodwill.

 

[185]

Isn't it the modern answer to call a shortage of staff "Industrial Action" like another neighbouring large operator was doing recently?

If pennypinching private companies do not employ enough staff, unions should bring a prosecution when they are wrongly blamed for any shortfall.

 

[londonmidland]

Looking at the departures from Manchester Piccadilly this evening, looks like we have a mix of ‘A member of train crew being unavailable’ as well as the good old ‘a short notice change to the timetable’ excuses.

The ASLEF union have announced 'action short of a strike' industrial action due to take place from Saturday 1 June to Saturday 27 July, affecting some Northern services.

Most services will run as scheduled but a higher number of short-notice cancellations (particularly last trains of the day) are expected.

 

[trainophile]

Northern currently showing 251 cancellations today. Have spot-checked a few and every one is "due to a short notice change to the timetable". It's embarrassing, and must bewilder any overseas visitors who aren't familiar with the information system here.

 

[Snow1964]

Northern currently showing 251 cancellations today. Have spot-checked a few and every one is "due to a short notice change to the timetable". It's embarrassing, and must bewilder any overseas visitors who aren't familiar with the information system here.

Don't have to be from overseas, the concept is fairly alien in many regions of ok. Never see it in our area. (I only know about it from forum, not an actual example)

 

[185143]

Northern currently showing 251 cancellations today. Have spot-checked a few and every one is "due to a short notice change to the timetable". It's embarrassing, and must bewilder any overseas visitors who aren't familiar with the information system here.

In fairness, I saw a few cancellations "due to a timetable change" when I was in the Amsterdam recently. So it's not just a UK thing.

I'm discounting the possibility of it being a poor translation due to how well English is spoken round there.

 

[317 forever]

I have an Advance single from Heaton Chapel to Manchester Piccadilly on Wednesday.

If the train is pulled I guess I just use the previous or subsequent scheduled train. I would prefer to keep to an electric train though, like mine is.

 

[Llandudno]

I have an Advance single from Heaton Chapel to Manchester Piccadilly on Wednesday.

If the train is pulled I guess I just use the previous or subsequent scheduled train. I would prefer to keep to an electric train though, like mine is.

I think you maybe better off on the 192 bus, every 5 minutes…!

 

[stevieinselby]

Well how on earth do you run a service if either a driver or guard is not available for that particular service?;

ICBW but I don't think the complaint was about announcing a shortage of train crew, but pretending that "a short notice change to the timetable" is a valid and adequate reason for cancelling a train when it is only changed the previous evening.

 

[trainophile]

ICBW but I don't think the complaint was about announcing a shortage of train crew, but pretending that "a short notice change to the timetable" is a valid and adequate reason for cancelling a train when it is only changed the previous evening.

You're not wrong (I had to look up the acronym!) - that's exactly what exasperates people, the cop-out excuse. It's funny how the timetable often seems to change back to the original one the next day, with no fanfare!

 

[Skymonster]

Its all pretty irritating, but I don’t really begrudge the train crew doing what they’re doing. What is really odious is Northern hiding behind the “short notice change to the timetable” excuse, presumably primarily to avoid delay repay. Whether its a Northern initiative or rooted in the DfT it doesn’t matter: a train company that messes customers about should pay compensation in line with industry standards whatever the cause.

 

[dk1]

The most frustrating thing about all this is that this whole farce could be totally avoided if only management obeyed rules and agreements. ASLEF don’t take decisions to act like this lightly. It really seems that leadership is rotten to the core.

 

[Class 170101]

The most frustrating thing about all this is that this whole farce could be totally avoided if only management obeyed rules and agreements. ASLEF don’t take decisions to act like this lightly. It really seems that leadership is rotten to the core.

But what does that actually mean?

I have seen and hedard of situations where the management do obey the rules and they still get slated because the rules weren't meant to be used in a given way, according to the LDC.

 

[dk1]

But what does that actually mean?

I have seen and hedard of situations where the management do obey the rules and they still get slated because the rules weren't meant to be used in a given way, according to the LDC.

It could be many things. LNER for example have had serious issues for a long time over rostering agreements not being adhered to. Behaving like that is going to cause a toxic relationship. We are so lucky to have none of this nonsense at my train operator as do most across the UK but the same bad apples seem to crop up again & again. ASLEF even sanctioned Rest Day Working only for things to turn sour again shortly after.

 

[swaldman]

"This service is cancelled due to a short notice change to the timetable"

is roughly equivalent to my old favourite,

"The reason that our train is stopped is that the signal is red".

 

[Horizon22]

"This service is cancelled due to a short notice change to the timetable"

is roughly equivalent to my old favourite,

"The reason that our train is stopped is that the signal is red".

To be fair to the driver/guard, if they are asked to be doing an announcement within 60 seconds of being at a stand, they're not going to know any different.

After about 5 minutes, you would hope that the signaller/control might have provided more info, but that also may not always be possible. So rather than guess, they would just state the same.

 

[Krokodil]

Would "cancelled because we don't want to employ enough members of staff" be acceptable?

It would at least be honest. Though "due to a shortage of staff" is brief and to the point.

‘A member of train crew being unavailable’

In my mind that's appropriate for last minute absence. Not for when "Duty Uncovered" has been on the sheets since Wednesday.

In fairness, I saw a few cancellations "due to a timetable change" when I was in the Amsterdam recently. So it's not just a UK thing.

I'm always amused when I hear "operating difficulties" in Austria. Wasn't that a favourite of BR?

To be fair to the driver/guard, if they are asked to be doing an announcement within 60 seconds of being at a stand, they're not going to know any different.

In which case "We are currently being held at a red signal. I will let everyone know as soon as I have any further information".

Even if the crew can't provide more information, best to explicitly say that there is no more information to provide, rather than make a bland statement "we're stopped because we've been told to stop"

 

[Horizon22]

In which case "We are currently being held at a red signal. I will let everyone know as soon as I have any further information".

Even if the crew can't provide more information, best to explicitly say that there is no more information to provide, rather than make a bland statement "we're stopped because we've been told to stop"

I've heard the above to be fair, but also I've heard the latter too which as you say is always a bit obvious!

 

[AlexNL]

In fairness, I saw a few cancellations "due to a timetable change" when I was in the Amsterdam recently. So it's not just a UK thing.

I'm discounting the possibility of it being a poor translation due to how well English is spoken round there.

It's not a poor translation, as the Dutch version of the reason is noodzakelijke aanpassing aan de dienstregeling (necessary change to the timetable).

NS used to say "due to rolling stock issues" or "due to crewing issues" but they've stopped doing that for their own services in favour of this vague reason. For other operators they still talk about rolling stock or crew issues.

 

[sansyy]

Northern need to be held accountable for their P-coding as it is so frustrating! I have a friend that travels on the evening Ellesmere Port to Warrington Bank Quay service and 4/5 days its cancelled! Absolutely appalling service from a paying customer and having to go the longer route from Ellesmere Port - Hooton - Chester - Warrington Bank Quay is just ridiculously long and time consuming by the point a bus would've been a better option!

 

[Llandudno]

Northern need to be held accountable for their P-coding as it is so frustrating! I have a friend that travels on the evening Ellesmere Port to Warrington Bank Quay service and 4/5 days its cancelled! Absolutely appalling service from a paying customer and having to go the longer route from Ellesmere Port - Hooton - Chester - Warrington Bank Quay is just ridiculously long and time consuming by the point a bus would've been a better option!

Is there a bus from Ellesmere Port to Warrington…?

 

[sansyy]

Is there a bus from Ellesmere Port to Warrington…?

Nope… again having to catch the 1 or 2 to chester than probably train from Chester to Warrington but multi mode transport and multiple fares when northern should just run a function service.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern need to be held accountable for their P-coding as it is so frustrating! I have a friend that travels on the evening Ellesmere Port to Warrington Bank Quay service and 4/5 days its cancelled! Absolutely appalling service from a paying customer and having to go the longer route from Ellesmere Port - Hooton - Chester - Warrington Bank Quay is just ridiculously long and time consuming by the point a bus would've been a better option!

Exactly how should Northern be held accountable? No matter what excuse they use, if a timetabled train has no driver or guard, it will be cancelled

 

[Kite159]

Exactly how should Northern be held accountable? No matter what excuse they use, if a timetabled train has no driver or guard, it will be cancelled

And it's better to cancel a lightly used service to allow staff (or even an unit) to work a busier service which will benefit more passengers. The least bad option when they have limited options

 

[Krokodil]

And it's better to cancel a lightly used service to allow staff (or even an unit) to work a busier service which will benefit more passengers.

That's not a hard and fast rule for all cases (even if it probably applies here). There are more things to consider, including the alternative options available to the passengers. Better to cancel a busier service if there is another one ten minutes later for example.

I wonder if route knowledge has a part to play in this. It must be hard work keeping drivers current even if the advertised service ran as booked, both morning and evening.

Of course the fact that the line is so lightly patronised probably has quite a lot to do with the infrequency of the advertised service, and the fact that it is so unreliable. I would expect to see a significant percentage increase (from what is a very low base of course) in patronage whenever Merseyrail finally take over the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line.

 

[Kite159]

There are more things to consider, including the alternative options available to the passengers

Which for Ellesmere Port - Helsby the alternative is going via Hooton & Chester. The only station without a rail based alternative is Ince & Elton.

Although you could argue that Northern should be supplying a rail replacement minibus (or a taxi) to run between those stations if any passengers rock up for it.

 

[Lampshade]

Exactly how should Northern be held accountable? No matter what excuse they use, if a timetabled train has no driver or guard, it will be cancelled

As I have said, P-Coding is not (or at least shouldn't be) a "get out of bad management free card".

Cough up the Delay Repay and the fines for cancellation, take it like a grown up.

 

[Krokodil]

Although you could argue that Northern should be supplying a rail replacement minibus (or a taxi) to run between those stations if any passengers rock up for it.

I would definitely argue that they should have an accessible taxi running between Ellesmere Port and Frodsham (in case there are any PRMs making a through journey who can't use the bridge at Helsby). A second best would be putting notices on the CIS screens telling passengers to use the help points (assuming that the stations are fitted) to contact the TOC for assistance.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

...
In which case "We are currently being held at a red signal. I will let everyone know as soon as I have any further information".

Even if the crew can't provide more information, best to explicitly say that there is no more information to provide, rather than make a bland statement "we're stopped because we've been told to stop"

I find "we're being held at a red signal" slightly reassuring, in that [a] it means the stop isn't due to the wheels falling off our train, and there's a good chance that it's just some minor problem or delay in front of us; and it should mean that someone in the box or control centre is (or soon will be) aware of the issue.