Can't do my money-saving trick due to train strike?

[jednick]

I would like to travel from station A to station B, tomorrow.

A return is around £40.

What I always do is buy a ticket from station A to station C. A permitted route is to change at station B. I cut the journey short, never actually go to C, always alight at station B, and get the whole return journey for around £18.

Tomorrow, due to industrial action, there are trains running between A and B, but no trains between B and C.

Firstly, I am unable to buy my ticket from A to C online, because it says the journey is not possible tomorrow (although, of course, I can still buy it from A to B, at more than double the price).

I think I could still buy it from the ticket machine at station A tomorrow, I'm guessing the machine won't know the whole journey isn't possible, and will sell me the ticket anyway?

Or, I could attempt to buy it from the ticket office, but they're going to say trains B to C aren't running, and I don't want to reveal what I'm actually doing to save money, in case they put a stop to me doing it in future.

Say I buy the ticket from A to C, what happens then; might I get questioned on the journey from A to B, as to the validity of my ticket? Or, do I just tell them what I'm doing anyway, as it's a 100% legitimate route?

 

[sot]

So long as the restriction doesn't stop break of journey or stopping short all is ok.

You could use one of the few non journey planner sites to buy the ticket if you want to bother with it.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I could attempt to buy it from the ticket office, but they're going to say trains B to C aren't running, and I don't want to reveal what I'm actually doing to save money, in case they put a stop to me doing it in future.

It would be poor customer service if the ticket office sold a ticket for a journey which, due to cancellations, is not actually possible. But is 'via B' the only valid route for the ticket you intend to buy? If it's valid by other routes to C on which trains are running, there's no reason for you to say you actually want it to travel via B and stop short there.

might I get questioned on the journey from A to B, as to the validity of my ticket?

Again, from a customer service point of view, you would expect the ticket inspector to advise you that there are no trains running between B and C that day. But the ticket remains valid as far as B. If you've used the same ticket that way before and not been questioned as to it's validity, there's no reason why it should be questioned on the strike day.

 

[jednick]

The usual, more obvious route to C is not possible at all, also.

Additionally, there are no trains calling at that station tomorrow

 

[HurdyGurdy]

So the ticket office should tell you that you can't actually travel to C. You can just thank them for the advice, but that you'd like that specific ticket anyway. There's no obligation at the time of purchase for you to explain to them where and why you may be intending to stop short of C.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the ticket office should tell you that you can't actually travel to C. You can just thank them for the advice, but that you'd like that specific ticket anyway. There's no obligation at the time of purchase for you to explain to them where and why you may be intending to stop short of C.

If the ticket is a period return, a legitimate reason for wanting it is that you're returning tomorrow when trains are running?

 

[jednick]

It is s day return.

If it helps, I am taking my bike.

From B to C is maybe ten miles. I could say I'm biking the last leg of the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does station A have a non-planner TVM? If so very likely that will quite happily sell it.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I could say I'm biking the last leg of the journey.

You are not required to answer questions about whether and/or how you intend to get to C. Just thank them for the advice about the cancellations and ask for the day return you want.

 

[sot]

Use the GTR website trick if you don't want to deal with a person and explain yourself. Job done.

 

[JGurney]

So the ticket office should tell you that you can't actually travel to C. You can just thank them for the advice, but that you'd like that specific ticket anyway. There's no obligation at the time of purchase for you to explain to them where and why you may be intending to stop short of C.

I have no idea what procedure applies if an intending rail customer insists, after being advised, on wanting to buy a ticket for a journey which is either impossible or would be very inconvenient or be bad value for money. Are staff supposed to sell them what they ask for, or to refuse to on the grounds they should protect ill-informed or mentally unwell people from wasting their money? (In jednick's case of course the request is actually perfectly rational, but he wishes to avoid disclosing the information which will demonstrate that).

I have occasionally had similar problems wanting to buy unusual but valid and rational tickets on various forms of public transport, leading to having to give staff long-winded explanations of my plans before they will sell me the ticket.

 

[island]

You could search for the journey on a non-strike day on the Southeastern app then add it to your favourites.

Then close and reopen the app, and choose the journey from favourites. It will just ask for a date and will sell the ticket for that date without a need to specify a train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2024 ==

You are not required to answer questions about whether and/or how you intend to get to C. Just thank them for the advice about the cancellations and ask for the day return you want.

There are plenty of ticket offices who will just refuse the sale in that scenario, and you won't be able to make them issue it.

 

[sot]

Thanks for the additional site, I knew the GTR sites worked that way, never used Southeastern so I never used their site.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

If the ticket is a period return, a legitimate reason for wanting it is that you're returning tomorrow when trains are running?

Are staff supposed to sell them what they ask for, or to refuse to on the grounds they should protect ill-informed or mentally unwell people from wasting their money? (In jednick's case of course the request is actually perfectly rational, but he wishes to avoid disclosing the information which will demonstrate that).

I would expect the ticket office to advise that no trains were actually serving C on the day, but I don't think a customer is required to provide a "legitimate reason" or answer 20 questions about their travel plans in order to purchase a specific ticket from a ticket office.

 

[skyhigh]

I don't think a customer is required to provide a "legitimate reason" or answer 20 questions about their travel plans in order to purchase a specific ticket from a ticket office.

They are not, but that doesn't mean that a ticket office will refuse to sell the ticket....

...and unless you want to highlight what ticket you were wanting to buy for an impossible journey by making a complaint (potentially resulting in the validity being removed) then you'd have little comeback if refused the sale.

 

[Haywain]

I have no idea what procedure applies if an intending rail customer insists, after being advised, on wanting to buy a ticket for a journey which is either impossible or would be very inconvenient or be bad value for money. Are staff supposed to sell them what they ask for, or to refuse to on the grounds they should protect ill-informed or mentally unwell people from wasting their money?

I would have sold the ticket but endorsed it to the effect that the customer has been advised that there are no onward trains to the destination. This would prevent them insisting on or claiming for taxis.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

There are plenty of ticket offices who will just refuse the sale in that scenario, and you won't be able to make them issue it.

The same ticket offices who refuse to sell an Off-Peak ticket before it becomes valid to use, I suppose?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the additional site, I knew the GTR sites worked that way, never used Southeastern so I never used their site.

They both use the same TIS provider so function in essentially identical ways.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I routinely use an A to C ticket to travel to B, in the exactly the way that the OP describes. On occasion I purchase it at a time when there is no onward connection from B to C, so that my journey is "impossible". On those occasions I've just asked for the ticket I wanted and it was sold to me. No questions, no endorsements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I routinely use an A to C ticket to travel to B, in the exactly the way that the OP describes. On occasion I purchase it at a time when there is no onward connection from B to C, so that my journey is "impossible". On those occasions I've just asked for the ticket I wanted and it was sold to me. No questions, no endorsements.

It very much depends on the ticket office. Some will just sell it, some will refuse. And if refused you've got a problem.

 

[Watershed]

I similarly often buy "overdistance" tickets or tickets which it wouldn't be possible to use in full because of the time you're setting off. Saving the ticket as a "Favourite" on the GTR/SE site makes it easy to buy without needing to check for an itinerary, which is very handy.

I do sometimes get warned by guards etc. that I've missed the last connection of the day but I just explain I'm breaking my journey overnight.

Of course on a day return it's a little more complex.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course on a day return it's a little more complex.

Well it isn't really - if the ticket permits BoJ then you simply state you are ending short.

The issue here is staff wrongly refusing to sell - but whether right or wrong that doesn't get you a ticket.

 

[JGurney]

I don't think a customer is required to provide a "legitimate reason" or answer 20 questions about their travel plans in order to purchase a specific ticket...

I have experienced it, although the worst offenders were outside the railways. I have sometimes had to deal with well-intended rail staff quizzing me to make sure I know what restrictions apply, etc. E.g. when buying a ticket from East Croydon to Bristol Temple Meads, changing at Clapham Junction onto an SWT train to Bristol TM running via Salisbury, I have had to clarify at length that, yes, I was aware the ticket was only valid by that route, not via Paddington and yes, I knew it was not valid on GWR services between Salisbury and Bristol, and, yes, I knew it was therefore valid only on two trains during the day.

Outside the railways, National Express and their agents used to be the worst for this in the days before online booking. On one particularly annoying occcasion I had to demand the manager be summoned before getting sold a ticket for London to Whitby changing at York. The clerk was insistent that since there was a through service I must go on that, even though it was at completely the wrong time of day for me. First she denied that the connection via York which I wanted existed. On my offering to show her it in the NE Guide, she replied "The book is only for travel agents, you would not understand it". After some minutes arguing I got hold of the guide and showed her the connection, the through fare for it and the booking code to use. She still refused to issue the ticket insisting I must use the through service. I then demanded the manager be called and after several minutes more debate the clerk was finally told to issue the ticket I had asked for.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I do sometimes get warned by guards etc. that I've missed the last connection of the day but I just explain I'm breaking my journey overnight.

Of course on a day return it's a little more complex.

It really isn't complex. Your ticket is valid to travel via and to stop short at B. I'd expect guards and ticket inspectors to advise any passenger with a ticket to C that there were no further trains running beyond B that day, but not demand explanations about if and how the passenger intends to get to C. If informed of the situation just say, "Thanks, I'm getting off this train at B". If they are not satisfied with that, hard luck.

The use of "favourites" on certain sites is a very handy way of bypassing the "sold out"/"no fare available" ruses which some some operators are using to force more expensive options onto potential customers. Now that "loophole" has been advertised on here, look forward to it being closed pretty quickly/

 

[Watershed]

It really isn't complex. Your ticket is valid to travel via and to stop short at B. I'd expect guards and ticket inspectors to advise any passenger with a ticket to C that there were no further trains running beyond B that day, but not demand explanations about if and how the passenger intends to get to C. If informed of the situation just say, "Thanks, I'm getting off this train at B". If they are not satisfied with that, hard luck.

Well yes, I'm just pointing out that it may invite additional questions if you say you're finishing your journey in B. Whereas if you say you're breaking your journey overnight, that's probably more widely understood and accepted.

I'm not suggesting it is wrong or not permitted - just that sometimes it can be wise to pick one's battles.

Obviously in this case, if only day returns are available, the question doesn't arise.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Well yes, I'm just pointing out that it may invite additional questions if you say you're finishing your journey in B.

I'm more comfortable saying that I'm getting off the train at B - which is true and which my ticket entitles me to do - and leave it at that, rather than entertaining curiosity about why I have a ticket to C by telling a lie, however plausible that lie may be.

 

[Bensonby]

Isn’t there an issue with a ticket office selling a ticket to a station that is essentially “closed”, because they would be entering into a contract to get the passenger to that station which the passenger could subsequently insist on being carried to by alternative means at cost to the railway? I don’t work for the railway, but if I was a ticket office employee I’d be very reluctant to sell such a ticket - even if the passenger admitted they wanted to stop short.

 

[yorksrob]

It would be poor customer service if the ticket office sold a ticket for a journey which, due to cancellations, is not actually possible. But is 'via B' the only valid route for the ticket you intend to buy? If it's valid by other routes to C on which trains are running, there's no reason for you to say you actually want it to travel via B and stop short there.



Again, from a customer service point of view, you would expect the ticket inspector to advise you that there are no trains running between B and C that day. But the ticket remains valid as far as B. If you've used the same ticket that way before and not been questioned as to it's validity, there's no reason why it should be questioned on the strike day.

The ticket office would have a duty to warn the passenger that there were no trains beyond a certain point, but if the passenger insisted on buying it, I don't see why they should refuse.

 

[LowLevel]

Isn’t there an issue with a ticket office selling a ticket to a station that is essentially “closed”, because they would be entering into a contract to get the passenger to that station which the passenger could subsequently insist on being carried to by alternative means at cost to the railway? I don’t work for the railway, but if I was a ticket office employee I’d be very reluctant to sell such a ticket - even if the passenger admitted they wanted to stop short.

That has always historically been the case in retail training, rightly or wrongly - that employees should avoid potentially committing the transport operator to any possibility that the ticket holder would demand the fulfillment of that contract when it's already known to be impossible, claiming to have been mislead by the employee.

Personally I'd always ask a quick question of the person wishing to buy it (not to do so would be very poor service in my opinion) and if they explained that they wanted it to stop short or take advantage of permitted routing or whatever, in which case I'd just sell it and endorse it accordingly.

There are plenty of good reasons of course why such a ticket might be wanted - returning from a certain station within a month when trains are running being just another example.

 

[CyrusWuff]

That has always historically been the case in retail training, rightly or wrongly - that employees should avoid potentially committing the transport operator to any possibility that the ticket holder would demand the fulfillment of that contract when it's already known to be impossible, claiming to have been mislead by the employee.

Personally I'd always ask a quick question of the person wishing to buy it (not to do so would be very poor service in my opinion) and if they explained that they wanted it to stop short or take advantage of permitted routing or whatever, in which case I'd just sell it and endorse it accordingly.

Conversely, such a ticket may be queried with the relevant Pricing Manager (which is presumably why the OP hasn't mentioned tje stations involved) and the apparent loophole closed.