Canterbury tram

[telstarbox]

"A tram system and other potential solutions to traffic woes in Canterbury are set to be researched by council bosses. Authority leader Ben Fitter-Harding says the city’s appeal is at risk of falling behind that of other places unless plans to rethink its clogged-up road network are dreamt up."

'Tram system could solve city's traffic woes'

A council leader says 'no idea is off the table' as he bids to come up with solutions to solve traffic gridlock - including a possible tram system.

www.kentonline.co.uk

Clearly this is only at the crayons stage, but I'm not sure what problem it's trying to solve. The A28 is a heavily used road corridor but some of that traffic is cross-town e.g. Ashford to Thanet. The A2 bypasses the city to the west. Both of these corridors are also followed by railways (although Canterbury East only has one train per hour).

You could have a route from Wincheap Park and Ride - West station - Sturry Park and Ride, but this would only be 4 miles long and a microfleet of trams would be expensive. Getting it across the historic city centre would be a challenge. If there was a branch to the University of Kent (out of town) this would bring in more passengers but you're still stuck with a small system and microfleet.

Does it have any legs? I found this system in France which has seven stops over 3 miles, but that is zero-fare presumably because it would never turn a profit.

Aubagne tramway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DB]

Can't see this ever happening in a small city like Canterbury. Even large citiies struggle to get tram network in place in this country (Leeds has been talking about it for years but not managed it)

 

[telstarbox]

Yes, Canterbury is fairly self contained and not part of a conurbation where the economics might start to add up. (I could see it working somewhere like Littlehampton - Brighton - Seaford, but of course that area already has heavy rail).

 

[atomicdanny]

I'm curious to where a tram in Canterbury would go, because at the moment for that city, one small accident causes chaos (I know this because I used to work in Canterbury - and it happened a lot), so where would a tram fit?

Both of these corridors are also followed by railways (although Canterbury East only has one train per hour).

Canterbury East has two trains an hour to Dover and to Faversham / London? - (unless this is a covid service reduced to one an hour? )

 

[telstarbox]

Sorry that's quite right in normal times. It does mean that a tram would have limited scope to take any long-distance trips though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry that's quite right in normal times. It does mean that a tram would have limited scope to take any long-distance trips though.

Trams aren't really for long distance journeys, they are more of a local mode of transport as they are slower than heavy rail.

Yes, there are oddities (like the Kusttram) and hybrids (like the longer Metrolink lines) but I think we're just talking a classic street tramway here?

 

[Typhoon]

I'm curious to where a tram in Canterbury would go, because at the moment for that city, one small accident causes chaos (I know this because I used to work in Canterbury - and it happened a lot), so where would a tram fit?

I can only assume that this is a vanity project. Yes, there is congestion in Canterbury. mainly along the Sturry Road and Wincheap because there are the 'out-of-town' retail outlets are (two retail parks along Sturry Road, one near the A2 at the end of Wincheap) but, as has been said, a lot of the problem is through traffic. With the exception of the A2 roads from the coastal towns, Thanet, Sandwich and the myriad villages converge on Canterbury. which still has city walls and narrow lanes. Sturry Road has a bus lane, inbound only, a tram would require a further lane to be used, reducing road traffic to be single file. There are places where the road could be widened but not along the whole length without the destruction of property. The plan would presumably involve the replacement of the Park and Ride buses but, once out of peak hours, they are almost empty; I happily use my old person's pass on them when going to the retail outlets knowing that I am guaranteed a seat right near the front and very little delay. There are also at least 11 buses an hour from different destinations, if the plan is to disgorge them at the Park and Ride stop and make them get on the tram, people will simply stop shopping in Canterbury. Otherwise, more congestion.
Another congestion point is the roundabout where the ring road meets Wincheap - including the road under the railway near Canterbury East station, again difficult to widen the road. Wincheap itself is narrow (no more than 3 lanes), old fashioned road with houses and shops on both sides. It is no real distance, I have walked to the retail park on more than one occasion. Again there is a Park and Ride which is massively underused in off-peak. The road is used by commercial vehicles wanting to get on to the A2.

If there was a branch to the University of Kent (out of town) this would bring in more passengers but you're still stuck with a small system and microfleet.

It would compete with Stagecoach's Unibuses which operate Monday - Saturday during the night as well as day and serve residential areas where students live. How practical it would be to direct trams round a housing estate, or, indeed, up St Thomas's Hill to get to the University I don't know. (I would be interested to know about the performance of trams on hills, the only ones I have experienced have been on relatively flat terrain).

Interestingly, Councillor Fitter-Harding lost his seat in the 2019 council elections but was parachuted into a safe seat following the death of a councillor. He managed to turn a 700+ majority into a 160 majority with the LibDem increasing their vote by a couple of hundred. He has previously had another bright idea - remove the market stalls from the city centre (which included craft stalls, some from students) and replace them with a tree lined boulevard. Will that really encourage people to shop in the city centre - just what I want to see when I go shopping, a tree (probably vandalised). How much support he will get from the coastal communities and rural villages (who provide the majority of Conservative councillors) I am not sure.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Having lived and worked in Canterbury, I can see this being a total non-starter

This is a historic Roman town, at the seat of the Church of England, with narrow streets, lots of historic buildings and of course, the city walls and narrow Westgate Towers. There is simply no room for a tram unless it was to run around the ring road.

I know traffic congestion has always been a problem in and around the city and off-topic I know, but the stupid bollards to aid social distancing etc. (like in London and other towns/cities) have increased congestion and traffic queues - especially at St Dunstans crossing near the West station.

Canterbury sits in a deep valley with lots of housing estates around the perimeter. I'm sure residents would be over the moon to find trams running past, literally on their doorsteps day and night (my parents for example) and although a tram serving the university might be nice; the adjacent land is protected green space including an apple orchard and a walking route over part of the old Crab and Winkle Canterbury & Whitstable Railway. There are lots of conservation and special archeological areas of interest too

 

[telstarbox]

The Sheffield trams can do 10% gradients if that helps!

 

[Typhoon]

The Sheffield trams can do 10% gradients if that helps!

Thanks. Unfortunately I've tried to find the gradient of St Thomas' Hill and the (almost) parallel St Stephen's Hill (Google maps, and my OS maps) but will bear this in common. Haven't been to Sheffield after the trams were introduced but remember it as being very hilly.

 

[D365]

Supertram trams are 100% motored but definitely not low floor throughout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Supertram trams are 100% motored but definitely not low floor.

The end vehicles are low floor, the middle bit isn't. Quite a good design, really, very well-suited to the mix of journey lengths on a British "hybrid tram" type thing. The "tram train" variant is I think low floor throughout.

 

[D365]

The "tram train" variant is I think low floor throughout.

No, the Class 399 Citylink is identical in layout to the Supertram. 40% low floor, with the centre section raised to accommodate electrical equipment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, the Class 399 Citylink is identical in layout to the Supertram. 40% low floor, with the centre section raised to accommodate electrical equipment.

You are indeed correct, sorry. It's a very good layout for a tram, a bit like a double decker bus, having an accessible bit designed for accessibility and standing passengers on short journeys and a non-accessible bit designed for optimum seat layout without too many bits from under the floor in the way. Much better than most of the newer short-segment ones. FWIW, it's a common layout on Swiss narrow gauge lines, often Stadler products too - in essence the tram-train is all a bit FLIRT!

 

[D365]

in essence the tram-train is all a bit FLIRT!

Rather fitting that Stadler purchased Vossloh then!

 

[alex397]

This is an idea that will go nowhere, as many other commenters have said. Canterbury is completely unsuitable for a tram system. Although this is just a mere suggestion from the Canterbury City Council leader, who appears to know nothing about public transport (the rest of the CCC don’t seem to be much better). I’m surprised a monorail hasn’t been suggested.

It should also be noted that Kent County Council were recently unable to build a small bus lane along the Sturry Road (on the A28 towards Thanet), due to difficulties with pipes/wires underneath the road and public opposition. I can just imagine the difficulties and uproar if a tram line was proposed.

 

[D365]

In that case, the only remotely suitable light rail system would be based on the one currently under development in Coventry.

 

[Typhoon]

In that case, the only remotely suitable light rail system would be based on the one currently under development in Coventry.

Thank you, I wasn't aware of this. Appears to be innovative, I will check up on it to see how progress is going from time to time. I would have thought the best plan was to see how successful it is before rolling it out elsewhere. I couldn't find the route - to the Hospital I guess will largely follow the Ansty Road and, at least for some of the way. there is a central reservation that could be used. To the University there are two possibilities; direct, via Kenilworth Road, or via Westwood which would seem to be useful for patronage. Having the City Council and the University behind it will doubtless help it on its way.

For anyone on Canterbury City Council reading this, Canterbury is a wholly different case. Much smaller (Coventry has got a population over six times bigger) and, as others have pointed out the old city walls and many traditional buildings are intact (despite the efforts of the Luftwaffe). The Coventry example links two key destinations; while the University in Canterbury (UoK - there is a second, but that is in centre of the city*) would be a suitable destination, the hospital less so, it is situated off side streets, although busy does not have an A & E facility, and (possibly biggest problem) its future is regularly debated. Sometimes we are told that it will be downgraded. A housing developer has their eyes on the site and has offered to build a new hospital on a green field site further out (although how much they will build decreases by the year) so, until this is sorted out, it would seem silly to make any plans. The other obvious destinations are shopping centres, but these attract people from outside of the city as much as in it.

This is an idea that will go nowhere, as many other commenters have said. Canterbury is completely unsuitable for a tram system. Although this is just a mere suggestion from the Canterbury City Council leader, who appears to know nothing about public transport (the rest of the CCC don’t seem to be much better).

I haven't heard any other councillors endorse the leader's suggestion. Having spoken to councillors in the past, some at least do have an understanding (there was an extensive report a few years back) but these were a previous leader's people and are now sidelined.

* - oops, I had forgotten there is a campus for the University for the Creative Arts (walkable from the city centre).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thanks. Unfortunately I've tried to find the gradient of St Thomas' Hill and the (almost) parallel St Stephen's Hill (Google maps, and my OS maps) but will bear this in common. Haven't been to Sheffield after the trams were introduced but remember it as being very hilly.

I tried too without much luck. Probably the local library/Beaney when it reopens

I certainly remember the old Fleetlines really struggled up St Thomas's Hill back in the 1970s

 

[paul1609]

'Tram system could solve city's traffic woes'

A council leader says 'no idea is off the table' as he bids to come up with solutions to solve traffic gridlock - including a possible tram system.

www.kentonline.co.uk

Clearly this is only at the crayons stage, but I'm not sure what problem it's trying to solve. The A28 is a heavily used road corridor but some of that traffic is cross-town e.g. Ashford to Thanet. The A2 bypasses the city to the west. Both of these corridors are also followed by railways (although Canterbury East only has one train per hour).

You could have a route from Wincheap Park and Ride - West station - Sturry Park and Ride, but this would only be 4 miles long and a microfleet of trams would be expensive. Getting it across the historic city centre would be a challenge. If there was a branch to the University of Kent (out of town) this would bring in more passengers but you're still stuck with a small system and microfleet.

Does it have any legs? I found this system in France which has seven stops over 3 miles, but that is zero-fare presumably because it would never turn a profit.

Aubagne tramway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although the A28 links Ashford and Thanet nobody would use it as a through route via Canterbury. The normal route to the whole of the North Coast is to go to Junction 6 of the M2 (Faversham) and then along the Thanet Way (A299) its about 5 miles further than the A28 but 20 mins plus quicker.

 

[alex397]

I tried too without much luck. Probably the local library/Beaney when it reopens

I certainly remember the old Fleetlines really struggled up St Thomas's Hill back in the 1970s

I’ve tried to find the gradient too, but no luck. All I can say is, I really can’t imagine trams being able to get up there easily. And it isn’t exactly flat when you get up there. Once you’ve reached the turning for the university, you have to go down and then up again, and thinking of the landscape it would be similar if the tram went a different way on its own track.

CCC could spend much less money on improving bus shelters (which are often in a dire state around here) or incentivising bus use in other ways.

 

[rf_ioliver]

This is an idea that will go nowhere, as many other commenters have said. Canterbury is completely unsuitable for a tram system. Although this is just a mere suggestion from the Canterbury City Council leader, who appears to know nothing about public transport (the rest of the CCC don’t seem to be much better). I’m surprised a monorail hasn’t been suggested.

It should also be noted that Kent County Council were recently unable to build a small bus lane along the Sturry Road (on the A28 towards Thanet), due to difficulties with pipes/wires underneath the road and public opposition. I can just imagine the difficulties and uproar if a tram line was proposed.

The article does say they are just exploring the idea. Sadly I have to agree that Canterbury is probably too small in many respects.

Getting the crayons out, a University-Hospital line looks feasilble but that would suffice for internal traffic. I'm kind of lost as to where you could place stops for P&R facilities to get people from outside of Canterbury to get out of their cars. An extension from the hospital to the A2 perhaps and redirect traffic from the north to a P&R at the university?

An east-west line from the A2 (Harpledown/Wincheap over to the east side (Asda) to take pressure of the A28 might be possible but seems to replicate the already existing rail connections and bus routes.

 

[Alfie1014]

Sadly Colchester are similarly blinkered by the prospect of a ‘tram’. As part of the infrastructure funding for the new Colchester Tendring Borders Garden Community £100M has been secured from the Government’s Housing Infrastructure Fund. Of that £70M is for a new dual carriageway link road to the A120 and the remaining £30M is for the first phase of the so call Rapid Transit System. https://tcbgardencommunity.co.uk/faqs/ The RTS was supposed to be a network linking the 3 proposed garden communities in North Essex that would stretch from Colchester across to Braintree. The planning inspector threw out 2 of the 3 proposals for being unsound and only the Colchester/Tendring borders scheme survives. This means the RTS is now a single route from Colchester P&R to the garden community via North station, the town centre and Greenstead. At around 9km the full cost of a tram of this length would be around £150-200M, but with only £30M of committed funding the wording has changed to tram-like, (which means some sort of bus option, with at best some modest segregation), with no indication of how it would operate or integrate with the existing bus network. The current proposed route doesn’t even serve the University campus, (which is probably the largest single generator of bus usage in the town today), though it would pass nearby.

Unfortunately it is all being portrayed as some master plan that will deliver the lowest car usage and therefore the highest public transport usage of any development in the country! You couldn’t make it up.

 

[dazzler]

Thanks. Unfortunately I've tried to find the gradient of St Thomas' Hill and the (almost) parallel St Stephen's Hill (Google maps, and my OS maps) but will bear this in common. Haven't been to Sheffield after the trams were introduced but remember it as being very hilly.

According to the Ride with GPS cycle/walking route planner, St. Stephen's Hill maxes out at around 7.2%, St. Thomas' Hill at around 6.8%. By contrast, on the same planner, Park Grange Road in Sheffield (complete with Supertram running along it) maxes out at around 10.3%.

 

[Typhoon]

According to the Ride with GPS cycle/walking route planner, St. Stephen's Hill maxes out at around 7.2%, St. Thomas' Hill at around 6.8%. By contrast, on the same planner, Park Grange Road in Sheffield (complete with Supertram running along it) maxes out at around 10.3%.

Thanks for this. I guessed St. Stephen's would be the steepest of the two (but it would be more convenient for off-campus student accommodation).

 

[PaulJ]

Although the A28 links Ashford and Thanet nobody would use it as a through route via Canterbury. The normal route to the whole of the North Coast is to go to Junction 6 of the M2 (Faversham) and then along the Thanet Way (A299) its about 5 miles further than the A28 but 20 mins plus quicker.

Speaking as a Thanetian, no one I know would choose to travel to Ashford via the A299/A251!

 

[Vespa]

For small towns etc, a segregated busway like Runcorn or Cambridge is a much cheaper and effective solution than an expensive tramway if there isn't enough road space or passenger numbers to support it.

And I'm pro Tram and Trolleybus, I'm realistic enough to understand not everywhere is suitable for it tho.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For small towns etc, a segregated busway like Runcorn or Cambridge is a much cheaper and effective solution than an expensive tramway if there isn't enough road space or passenger numbers to support it.

And I'm pro Tram and Trolleybus, I'm realistic enough to understand not everywhere is suitable for it tho.

Arguably surface trams are for smaller places and U- and S-Bahnen are for larger ones?

 

[Vespa]

Arguably surface trams are for smaller places and U- and S-Bahnen are for larger ones?

As been mentioned earlier on Canterbury is not big enough with the road space for such a scheme.

A Runcorn style busway is probably the only cost effective solution as you can use the road space and move to segregated busways where necessary, if you have dedicated park and ride route this will take some pressure off the town centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Runcorn style busway is probably the only cost effective solution as you can use the road space and move to segregated busways where necessary, if you have dedicated park and ride route this will take some pressure off the town centre.

Tramways are exactly the same, you can run them down roads or on segregated formations. If a busway is possible, so is a tramway on the same routes, the latter is just more expensive.