Capacity Constraints Causing Higher Ticket Prices on EMR London Routes?

[A0]

Were it ever thus? 20 years ago the MMR was far more expensive from Wellingborough to London than say Northampton to London. Our sons went to University in Loughborough or Nottingham and we always felt we were paying a premium to use the line.

This dates back to the boundary of the "London South East" area, later Network South East being set at Bedford with the consequence Wellingborough and Kettering ended up with much more expensive "Inter City" fares. Same situation existed at Ipswich

 

[richardderby]

I have been using the LNR and XC fares for years between Derby and Euston, they sped up the connection at Tamworth a year or so ago, and takes around 1 hour 50. fares are very competitive, less than £50 return vs £80 on MML, and 8 car electric trains with declassified first class in 2 cars. only problem is if your connection goes pear shaped...

 

[Mikw]

I used to drive from Leicester to Kettering and catch a 360 from there with a split ticket it was often under £30.
In recent times not only has the price of off peak parking increased by £2 at Kettering but it's been really hard to get a split return for less than £40.
I have had to use the coach for recent visits. It's actually not too bad, guarenteed seat and usually less than £20 return

 

[richardderby]

looking at realtraintimes, it seems the majority of EMR weekday London services are 5 car, with a few 7 and 10 cars scattered about, pretty poor showing, even Crosscountry seem to offer more space on board at the mo..

 

[D6975]

Is this the reason for the demise of Megatrain earlier this year? (part of the Megabus empire)

 

[Merle Haggard]

Is this the reason for the demise of Megatrain earlier this year? (part of the Megabus empire)

Was this the ticket for rail travel from St Pancras etc to East Midlands Parkway and forward to the North-East by coach? (and v.v. Southbound)
I thought it was a Stagecoach operation (perhaps to abstract rail business from East Coast when Stagecoach/Virgin lost that franchise)
and it ceased (understandably) when Stagecoach lost the East Midlands franchise.

The coaches parked at E.M.P. and the big exodus of passengers from down trains ceased around that time, from casual observation.

 

[D6975]

Was this the ticket for rail travel from St Pancras etc to East Midlands Parkway and forward to the North-East by coach? (and v.v. Southbound)
I thought it was a Stagecoach operation (perhaps to abstract rail business from East Coast when Stagecoach/Virgin lost that franchise)
and it ceased (understandably) when Stagecoach lost the East Midlands franchise.

The coaches parked at E.M.P. and the big exodus of passengers from down trains ceased around that time, from casual observation.

Yes, train to E M Pwy then coach forward from there. If you put London-Doncaster into Megabus, this was one of the options offered. (Megabus was founded by Stagecoach group)
Many seemingly unrelated companies are actually elements of a bigger operation.

 

[Jozhua]

From Nottingham and driving to atherstone and getting the LNR train to Euston works well and is quite cheap. It's not much longer in total than the direct train from Nottingham

Oh that's a good idea. Might try that in the future - I'm not set on my non EMR London routings yet...

I definitely use the route a lot less since the HST's went. This is primarily due to overcrowding. Once I tried getting on an evening northbound service and it was only four carriages I think.

I feel your pain there - a lot of the time you're squeezing onto a 5 car to Nottingham too...

 

[Yew]

I now proactively research & use split ticketing and will sometimes drive to Newark to catch the ECML. I’ll also sometimes swap to a 360 at Kettering when travelling to STP - it adds another half an hour onto the journey, but it’s worth it to have a much quieter, less crowded journey.

Similar here, from Nottingham I now favour getting a EMR DMU to Grantham, and then trying to get on a MK4 service down to Kings Cross.

 

[BJames]

Was this the ticket for rail travel from St Pancras etc to East Midlands Parkway and forward to the North-East by coach? (and v.v. Southbound)
I thought it was a Stagecoach operation (perhaps to abstract rail business from East Coast when Stagecoach/Virgin lost that franchise)
and it ceased (understandably) when Stagecoach lost the East Midlands franchise.

The coaches parked at E.M.P. and the big exodus of passengers from down trains ceased around that time, from casual observation.

It was - but you could also pick up cheap London to Nottingham through fares on Megatrain without any need to transfer to a bus or coach for the last stretch. It continued after Stagecoach lost the East Midlands franchise but the really cheap deals stopped at that point - at least on the London to Nottingham route.

It actually still has an active webpage: https://uk.megabus.com/products/megatrain - although pretty sure megabus confirmed earlier in the year it had been discontinued.

 

[JonathanH]

I'll cross post this from the 810 thread as it sits better here.

Will more seats see more great value fares?

Didn't EMR recently run a summer sale, even without the replacement fleet in operation? The time for 'great value fares' is where there is less demand, regardless of the fleet in use.

However, it doesn't really follow that new trains are introduced in order to generally reduce fares. Historically, investment was used as a reason to put up fares. Such a policy certainly happened under BR.

 

[Jozhua]

I'll cross post this from the 810 thread as it sits better here.


Didn't EMR recently run a summer sale, even without the replacement fleet in operation? The time for 'great value fares' is where there is less demand, regardless of the fleet in use.

However, it doesn't really follow that new trains are introduced in order to generally reduce fares. Historically, investment was used as a reason to put up fares. Such a policy certainly happened under BR.

Of course this is a very different world to the BR one.

The main constraint to passenger numbers on the key intercity routes is capacity, rather than competition from other modes.

Past introductions of new fleets (HST, IC225) would have brought a step change in the passenger experience, journey times and frequency, making rail more competitive and therefore able to charge higher fares!

These days, filling the trains seems to be no big issue and prices reflect that.

 

[A0]

looking at realtraintimes, it seems the majority of EMR weekday London services are 5 car, with a few 7 and 10 cars scattered about, pretty poor showing, even Crosscountry seem to offer more space on board at the mo..

There are only 4 7 car 222's, so it is perhaps unsurprising they are in the minority of EMR services.

There are 23 5 car 222s - so in total 27 222s - EMR (or their successor) are getting a capacity uplift when the 810s are introduced as there are 33 5 car units and the 810s have better seating capacity than the 222s.

 

[Andrew K]

It was - but you could also pick up cheap London to Nottingham through fares on Megatrain without any need to transfer to a bus or coach for the last stretch. It continued after Stagecoach lost the East Midlands franchise but the really cheap deals stopped at that point - at least on the London to Nottingham route.

It actually still has an active webpage: https://uk.megabus.com/products/megatrain - although pretty sure megabus confirmed earlier in the year it had been discontinued.

Although Megatrain fares were discontinued, we now have another cheap fares option with 'Secret Fares' which appears to be a partnership between EMR and Seatfrog. Fares are £12 for London to Derby, however, you can only specify a time range (morning, afternoon or evening) at booking and you are restricted to M-F only. You're then notified the day before confirming the time you've been booked on. I've used it a number of times and it works out cheaper than advance tickets if you can be flexible with the time of travel.

Save up to 50 per cent with EMR's new Secret Fare | East Midlands Railway News

New Secret Fare allows customers to save up to 50 per cent on the cost of an average advance single ticket price Fare aimed at customers who have flexible schedules Get from Nottingham to London or Derby to London for as little as £12

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

 

[BJames]

Although Megatrain fares were discontinued, we now have another cheap fares option with 'Secret Fares' which appears to be a partnership between EMR and Seatfrog. Fares are £12 for London to Derby, however, you can only specify a time range (morning, afternoon or evening) at booking and you are restricted to M-F only. You're then notified the day before confirming the time you've been booked on. I've used it a number of times and it works out cheaper than advance tickets if you can be flexible with the time of travel.

Save up to 50 per cent with EMR's new Secret Fare | East Midlands Railway News

New Secret Fare allows customers to save up to 50 per cent on the cost of an average advance single ticket price Fare aimed at customers who have flexible schedules Get from Nottingham to London or Derby to London for as little as £12

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Didn't know about this - I would have prolifically used this when at University (although sometimes we were able to get fares for less than £12 if you booked the right time and in advance) - this is the same (or very similar to) Avanti's superfare, is it not?

 

[tram21]

Didn't know about this - I would have prolifically used this when at University (although sometimes we were able to get fares for less than £12 if you booked the right time and in advance) - this is the same (or very similar to) Avanti's superfare, is it not?

It is identical, yes, although AFAIK Avanti quietly got rid of the Superfare, as you can only do it for EMR and Transpennine Express.

 

[ServerHoster]

It is identical, yes, although AFAIK Avanti quietly got rid of the Superfare, as you can only do it for EMR and Transpennine Express.

Still there, just on a separate web page! https://www.avantisuperfare.co.uk/

 

[sbf kent]

I have come back from Loughborough to Tunbridge Wells this afternoon and did Loughborough Kettering. Kettering Luton Airport Parkway. LAP London Bridge. LB to TW, the return was about £70, with a railcard, flexible off peak return as I did not know timings, flexible open via S Pancras would have been just over £100 I think . Maybe not the best way, but saved at fight at St Pancras. It is a shame the EMR connect are not 3 + 2, and there are not some 2 + 2 with tables. I hope the luggage space is good on the new trains - at least the meridians have space between the seats. The Loughborough to Kettering was full, I dread to think what it is like when the students are back at universities. Once electrified will EMR Connect run to Leicester?

 

[duffield]

... Once electrified will EMR Connect run to Leicester?

Not in the foreseeable future. A number of people on this forum have suggested or promoted this option, but there is currently no plan to do so, even when or indeed if the wires do eventually reach Leicester.

And of course currently the wires are still several miles short of Leicester, with still no official go ahead for any further stages (unless I've missed a very recent announcement); and the next stage will probably not even be the section including Leicester station anyhow, so the new Intercity branded bi-mode 810s will be the only option for Leicester for a long time, not the Connect branded 360s.

 

[A S Leib]

Not in the foreseeable future. A number of people on this forum have suggested or promoted this option, but there is currently no plan to do so, even when or indeed if the wires do eventually reach Leicester.

And of course currently the wires are still several miles short of Leicester, with still no official go ahead for any further stages (unless I've missed a very recent announcement); and the next stage will probably not even be the section including Leicester station anyhow, so the new Intercity branded bi-mode 810s will be the only option for Leicester for a long time, not the Connect branded 360s.

Does St. Pancras have enough capacity for what would presumably be two more tph terminating at the Midland Mainline platforms, were it to happen?

 

[duffield]

Does St. Pancras have enough capacity for what would presumably be two more tph terminating at the Midland Mainline platforms, were it to happen?

If the platforms were used ultra-efficiently with the new uniform 810 5 car fleet? Maybe, maybe not. But my understanding is that it's irrelevant because there just isn't the capacity in terms of paths on the crowded London end of the MML anyhow.
But I guess we're getting too far into speculative territory here.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Although Megatrain fares were discontinued, we now have another cheap fares option with 'Secret Fares' which appears to be a partnership between EMR and Seatfrog. Fares are £12 for London to Derby, however, you can only specify a time range (morning, afternoon or evening) at booking and you are restricted to M-F only. You're then notified the day before confirming the time you've been booked on. I've used it a number of times and it works out cheaper than advance tickets if you can be flexible with the time of travel.

Save up to 50 per cent with EMR's new Secret Fare | East Midlands Railway News

New Secret Fare allows customers to save up to 50 per cent on the cost of an average advance single ticket price Fare aimed at customers who have flexible schedules Get from Nottingham to London or Derby to London for as little as £12

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

The concept of "Secret Fares" really puts the lie to fares simplification, doesn't it?

 

[Adam Williams]

The concept of "Secret Fares" really puts the lie to fares simplification, doesn't it?

Secret fares that only one partner is allowed to retail, as well.

 

[Jozhua]

The concept of "Secret Fares" really puts the lie to fares simplification, doesn't it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is where significant differences lie between the railways and airlines.

Railways I believe roughly project demand ahead of time and then have a number of advance fares they will sell for each service, steadily going up in price each time each available "pot" runs out.

Airlines however are constantly reviewing how busy each flight is and fiddling with the fares to try and encourage each plane to be as full as possible.

Outside of "secret fares", there is no such pricing mechanism?

As others have mentioned, many airlines have a more flexible policy on changing bookings now than British railways do, and if advances are to become the primary means of ticketing on many routes, then this has to change...

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is where significant differences lie between the railways and airlines.

Railways I believe roughly project demand ahead of time and then have a number of advance fares they will sell for each service, steadily going up in price each time each available "pot" runs out.

Airlines however are constantly reviewing how busy each flight is and fiddling with the fares to try and encourage each plane to be as full as possible.

Outside of "secret fares", there is no such pricing mechanism?

As others have mentioned, many airlines have a more flexible policy on changing bookings now than British railways do, and if advances are to become the primary means of ticketing on many routes, then this has to change...

That's quite an old fashioned view.

Railways now use dynamic pricing, just as much as the airlines.

Availability of the different Advance fare pricing tiers is dynamic and change depending on a number of factors. Most intercity operators now have complex revenue management systems doing this kind of thing automatically, using AI and other algorithms. It is gradually expanding out to regional services like Northern, Southeastern etc.

It's particularly prevalent on the East Coast Mainline when Open Access services are scheduled - in the data you can occasionally see a mini price war, e.g. Hull/Lumo release cheap fares which causes the LNER algorithm to attempt to compete depending on what the minimum floor value is for the flow /how the loadings are going.

 

[Jozhua]

That's quite an old fashioned view.

Railways now use dynamic pricing, just as much as the airlines.

Availability of the different Advance fare pricing tiers is dynamic and change depending on a number of factors. Most intercity operators now have complex revenue management systems doing this kind of thing automatically, using AI and other algorithms. It is gradually expanding out to regional services like Northern, Southeastern etc.

It's particularly prevalent on the East Coast Mainline when Open Access services are scheduled - in the data you can occasionally see a mini price war, e.g. Hull/Lumo release cheap fares which causes the LNER algorithm to attempt to compete depending on what the minimum floor value is for the flow /how the loadings are going.

Fair enough, I stand corrected!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Railways now use dynamic pricing, just as much as the airlines.

I did pose that question up-thread; the significance of my question was because the Government claims to be looking at banning it after the Oasis concerts ticket pricing complaints.

It would be an interesting piece of legislation if it only banned the negative effects ('I can't afford an Oasis ticket') without affecting the positive effect ('I got a really cheap rail ticket to it').

I look forward to it, I'm sure they mean to

 

[Killingworth]

That's quite an old fashioned view.

Railways now use dynamic pricing, just as much as the airlines.

Availability of the different Advance fare pricing tiers is dynamic and change depending on a number of factors. Most intercity operators now have complex revenue management systems doing this kind of thing automatically, using AI and other algorithms. It is gradually expanding out to regional services like Northern, Southeastern etc.

It's particularly prevalent on the East Coast Mainline when Open Access services are scheduled - in the data you can occasionally see a mini price war, e.g. Hull/Lumo release cheap fares which causes the LNER algorithm to attempt to compete depending on what the minimum floor value is for the flow /how the loadings are going.

It's particularly prevelant between Sheffield and Manchester on a Saturday morning. Single fares from £8.70 to £26.60 at present. Leave it until the evening and it could be done for £7.60.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I did pose that question up-thread; the significance of my question was because the Government claims to be looking at banning it after the Oasis concerts ticket pricing complaints.

It would be an interesting piece of legislation if it only banned the negative effects ('I can't afford an Oasis ticket') without affecting the positive effect ('I got a really cheap rail ticket to it').

I look forward to it, I'm sure they mean to

The government won't ban dynamic pricing for any sector.

It will all come down to making sure companies using it play fair, for example, in a high pressure situation (like a mad scramble for in demand, limited tickets etc) that consumers are fully aware of what their options are, and aren't psychologically manipulated into paying grossly excessive sums that they'd never have anticipated being confronted with in order to proceed.

It's also not about price control - whether it's rail tickets or a concert, the prices can be as disgustingly high, or low, as the seller wants them to be. That won't change. It's all about being up front about that. Bait and switch etc will be banned, it arguably already is probably unlawful.