Car on Track near Motspur Park — Major Disruption to SWR Suburban Services

[stuving]

That's how it used to be.
This is Google Street View in 2009. If I recall correctly the bagged up traffic lights used to be for a right turn arrow, and were linked to the operation of the crossing lighhts.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...e0!5s20080601T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

Not quite - while the lights were there they never worked.

According to this Web Archive leaflet from Merton Council in 2010, about installing the current arrangement, they proposed "To remove the set of traffic lights at the junction of West Barnes Lane with Burlington Road, which were installed more than ten years ago and have remained non operational since." You can confirm that from historical satellite pictures from before 2010, since the road markings that lights would have needed were never applied.

Without the markings, it's hard to work out how those lights were meant to work. From later Merton council minutes, it appears they put in the lights in 1999, based on some agreement with Railtrack. By the time the latter were subsumed into Network Rail, the resources to make the link with the signalling had never been allocated. Network Rail to start with made encouraging noises, but for some reason never made any progress either. Someone may know what was behind that. The original plans from the 1990s don't appear to be on line; it's a bit too early for that.

 

[Lockwood]

Can they put red cats eyes along the side of the roadway to make it a bit more of an effort to be stupid enough to do this?

Having seen a picture of a tram track switching to segregated running - no more road surface, tram lines, no entry signs, tram only signs, bollards placed to make access difficult for cars... And a car... Red cats eyes wouldn't help much.

Unlikely. The gate should be sufficient clue that it is not a road. (Since gates were replaced with barriers, level crossings have been almost the only part of the railway not fenced off from the general public). Even if sewing gates are now impractical, lifting barriers across both road and railway (one goes up as the other goes down) would be a possible solution at locations were this happens often.

Are there areas where this actually happens often?


New drivers... When I was a new driver, I was only taught to drive on roads. Surely after you passed your test and see a sign/hear a voice saying "turn left", you'd realise that that is not the right choice.



That said, I've seen enough ridiculous driving choices that stuff like this doesn't surprise me as much as it should.

 

[Somewhere]

Having seen a picture of a tram track switching to segregated running - no more road surface, tram lines, no entry signs, tram only signs, bollards placed to make access difficult for cars... And a car... Red cats eyes wouldn't help much.


Are there areas where this actually happens often?


New drivers... When I was a new driver, I was only taught to drive on roads. Surely after you passed your test and see a sign/hear a voice saying "turn left", you'd realise that that is not the right choice.



That said, I've seen enough ridiculous driving choices that stuff like this doesn't surprise me as much as it should.

I think that people are so used to doing what computers tell them to do these days, people are conditioned not to question them and to obey

 

[778]

Is this like a repeat of the incedent at Cheshunt last year?

 

[AlterEgo]

Umm that's protecting the railway against idiots but they represent a far greater risk to the wider population than that.

Nonsense. They turned left when they shouldn’t. Elementary error, forgivable for a new driver who may have been flustered. Heaven forfend you’ve ever made a silly mistake.

 

[SynthD]

Having seen a picture of a tram track switching to segregated running - no more road surface, tram lines, no entry signs, tram only signs, bollards placed to make access difficult for cars

Are bollards allowed on a railway line like they are on a tram line?

 

[Egg Centric]

I do wonder how pleased this person's insurance company will be when all the railway related claims come in... their renewal quote will be eye-watering!

It'd be interesting to know how much actually. While the results will presumably be expensive*, the actual incompetence is not extraordinary compared to a bunch of other incredibly stupid things drivers do.

*But I can't see it stretching much into six figures and you could achieve that amount of damage by e.g. writing off some other person's brand new Bentley with similar ineptitude.

(I don't agree with @AlterEgo that this is just "turning left where they shouldn't" though, this is probably meeting the legal standard of dangerous driving imo)

 

[43066]

*But I can't see it stretching much into six figures

The delay minutes alone will be comfortably into six figures, and quite possibly higher, given that SWR advertised major disruption as a result of this incident. I have no idea whether NR/TOCs would attempt a claim for those from a car insurance policy.

(I don't agree with @AlterEgo that this is just "turning left where they shouldn't" though, this is probably meeting the legal standard of dangerous driving imo)

We can debate the precise magnitude of the incompetence/human fallibility on display here, and clearly there was some. However, once we accept that these kinds of incidents will inevitably happen, from the railway’s point of view, the focus surely needs to be on prevention, rather than (ultimately irrelevant) blame apportionment.

LCs are never going to be idiot proof. Hence why they aren’t considered an acceptably safe solution any longer, in an increasingly risk averse society, which is indeed populated by idiots/bad drivers/drunk drivers etc.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The delay minutes alone will be comfortably into six figures, and quite possibly higher, given that SWR advertised major disruption as a result of this incident. I have no idea whether NR/TOCs would attempt a claim for those from a car insurance policy.



We can debate the precise magnitude of the incompetence/human fallibility on display here, and clearly there was some. However, once we accept that these kinds of incidents will inevitably happen, from the railway’s point of view, the focus surely needs to be on prevention, rather than (ultimately irrelevant) blame apportionment.

Thats all very well but the burden of prevention falls on the railway and pushes its costs up as a result. It really ought to fall upon road users to pay for their shortcomings or its treated as the greater good for society.

LCs are never going to be idiot proof. Hence why they aren’t considered an acceptably safe solution any longer, in an increasingly risk averse society, which is indeed populated by idiots/bad drivers/drunk drivers etc.

In this case risk averse is a response to people not being risk aware which surely is a key attribute that any road driver should possess and demonstrate on a driving test.

 

[ainsworth74]

Nonsense. They turned left when they shouldn’t. Elementary error, forgivable for a new driver who may have been flustered. Heaven forfend you’ve ever made a silly mistake.

And in the dark as well which won't have helped a new driver any.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One issue with level crossings is that there are parts of the country where the nearest one is miles away, so any learner driver from there is unlikely to encounter one on their lessons or test. For example I took my test (and lessons) in Huddersfield, the closest* level crossings are at Streethouse and Dodworth. By comparison my younger brother took his test in Taunton (our family relocated) which had Silk Mills crossing at the time just a short distance from the test centre. Whilst removing crossings where possible is a good thing overall for safety, the fewer crossings there are will make each remaining crossing more of a problem for those unfamiliar with them.

*- I'm ruling out the recently closed Lady Anne crossing near Batley, as even when open this was operated under the supervision of the signaller.

 

[AlterEgo]

(I don't agree with @AlterEgo that this is just "turning left where they shouldn't" though, this is probably meeting the legal standard of dangerous driving imo)

Whether it does or doesn’t is immaterial here. Someone has turned left onto a railway thanks at least in part to a fairly poorly signed junction which might be ambiguous to someone who is very inexperienced.

Not long after I passed my test I accidentally went straight on, in the dark, at a bend on a single lane country road, through a large gap in the hedge and ended up in a farmer’s field and got the car stuck. That’s just one of those things and this level crossing incident has been caused by something equally banal - a very temporarily disoriented driver. It’s not like they smashed through the barriers. They just turned left, as instructed by a HUGE ARROW AND WRITING, too soon, down a railway.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Whether it does or doesn’t is immaterial here. Someone has turned left onto a railway thanks at least in part to a fairly poorly signed junction which might be ambiguous to someone who is very inexperienced.

Not long after I passed my test I accidentally went straight on, in the dark, at a bend on a single lane country road, through a large gap in the hedge and ended up in a farmer’s field and got the car stuck. That’s just one of those things and this level crossing incident has been caused by something equally banal - a very temporarily disoriented driver. It’s not like they smashed through the barriers. They just turned left, as instructed by a HUGE ARROW AND WRITING, too soon, down a railway.

Nonsense. They turned left when they shouldn’t. Elementary error, forgivable for a new driver who may have been flustered. Heaven forfend you’ve ever made a silly mistake.

I agree with this. "There but for the grace of God go I" When I hadn't been driving long I too went straight on at a bend in the road. Fortunately nothing was coming the other way. You can't teach experience. If they could, train drivers would get passed out much faster!

 

[Lockwood]

Are bollards allowed on a railway line like they are on a tram line?

I've not seen any railway crossing with bollards - my point was that when stuff like this can happen, you just cannot engineer against stupid.

I've heard people say that the problem with making something foolproof is that you create a higher grade of fool.


Image shows a car on a tramway with enough warnings that cats should not be there that people's faith in humanity could be misplaced

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Image shows a car on a tramway with enough warnings that cars should not be there that people's faith in humanity could be misplaced

Ouch - which tramway is that?

 

[The Planner]

The delay minutes alone will be comfortably into six figures, and quite possibly higher, given that SWR advertised major disruption as a result of this incident. I have no idea whether NR/TOCs would attempt a claim for those from a car insurance policy.

Nowhere near, 1281 as of this morning.

 

[zwk500]

Ouch - which tramway is that?

Nottingham, I believe: https://maps.app.goo.gl/sLrmaiRhrrBzoBDA6. Where the trams leave Lenton Lane to flyover the Mainline rail tracks.

 

[dangerousdids2]

If a driver (new or experienced) can't tell the difference between a road and a railway then they shouldn't be driving. Poor signage don't even come into it.
I think the offence here would be driving without due care or attention.
Luckily it wasn't causing death by dangerous driving.

 

[43066]

Nowhere near, 1281 as of this morning.

From a “major incident” on their metro network, including knock on delays? I’m surprised by that - and all credit to those in control for mitigating delays!

What is the value of those minutes, out of interest?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

From a “major incident” on their metro network, including knock on delays? I’m surprised by that - and all credit to those in control for mitigating delays!

What is the value of those minutes, out of interest?

...and what would be the value of the several hours of cancellations?

Presumably even the diverted trains have a cancellation value at all the stations between Raynes Park and Effingham Junction?

 

[The Planner]

From a “major incident” on their metro network, including knock on delays? I’m surprised by that - and all credit to those in control for mitigating delays!

What is the value of those minutes, out of interest?

Depends on what value is put against each service group by TOC. You won't ever find out the actual number.

 

[43066]

Depends on what value is put against each service group by TOC. You won't ever find out the actual number.

I’m aware of an example on my patch where being twenty minutes late out of a depot cost over £5,000, so it doesn’t seem too outlandish to imagine that 1281 delay minutes could easily be into six figures in terms of value.

...and what would be the value of the several hours of cancellations?

Presumably even the diverted trains have a cancellation value at all the stations between Raynes Park and Effingham Junction?

Indeed.

 

[Egg Centric]

For anyone interested in engineering solutions, I've created a thread

I still remain of the view that while beginning a turn is just about excusable for an incompetent new driver, actually getting that far down the track is a sign of total ineptitude. Further evidence for this is that this isn't happening every day, while new drivers going through hedges is...

 

[ExRes]

One thing I notice missing from this thread, a call for all new drivers to be taken off the road, now if the driver had been 65+ ..........

 

[The Planner]

I’m aware of an example on my patch where being twenty minutes late out of a depot cost over £5,000, so it doesn’t seem too outlandish to imagine that 1281 delay minutes could easily be into six figures in terms of value.

That is pretty reasonable to assume, it probably won't be too shy of half a million.

 

[Egg Centric]

That is pretty reasonable to assume, it probably won't be too shy of half a million.

Anyone know enough about law to know how much of that is recoverable from the insurers? It is at least partly an internal railway accounting trick after all, but some of it is genuine compensation too.

 

[75A]

One thing I notice missing from this thread, a call for all new drivers to be taken off the road, now if the driver had been 65+ ..........

How true

 

[TSG]

Very poor design of the level crossing area and road junction. The signage at the location does say TURN LEFT with a huge arrow immediately before the crossing. I can see how this one has happened, especially with a naive new driver.

Does anybody actually know that this car turned left? That would need a very sharp turn

The problem would not have existed with the old-fashioned gates that swing between the road and the railway.

or with someone walking with a red flag in front of each horseless carriage

Not long after I passed my test I accidentally went straight on, in the dark, at a bend on a single lane country road, through a large gap in the hedge and ended up in a farmer’s field and got the car stuck. That’s just one of those things and this level crossing incident has been caused by something equally banal - a very temporarily disoriented driver.

This seems more likely what happened. Look at the photo in post #10. Look where the car has come from if you assume it hasn't turned sharply. I know this crossing and I would suspect they were in the filter lane to go left coming from the Raynes Park direction. The problem wasn't that they turned left too early, but too late. Filter lanes tend to lead the unwary into believing they don't need to slow down. I know of several junctions, admittedly higher speed on busy A roads and older Motorways, where unexpectedly short filters cause regular accidents.

Not quite - while the lights were there they never worked.

According to this Web Archive leaflet from Merton Council in 2010, about installing the current arrangement, they proposed "To remove the set of traffic lights at the junction of West Barnes Lane with Burlington Road, which were installed more than ten years ago and have remained non operational since." You can confirm that from historical satellite pictures from before 2010, since the road markings that lights would have needed were never applied.

Without the markings, it's hard to work out how those lights were meant to work. From later Merton council minutes, it appears they put in the lights in 1999, based on some agreement with Railtrack. By the time the latter were subsumed into Network Rail, the resources to make the link with the signalling had never been allocated. Network Rail to start with made encouraging noises, but for some reason never made any progress either. Someone may know what was behind that. The original plans from the 1990s don't appear to be on line; it's a bit too early for that.

God knows what Railtrack were doing. This is something that's been done successfully elsewhere by the same NR route. It would need some extra channels on the remote control system, some extra buttons and LEDs and a short cable to the traffic light interface, but doable

 

[gravitystorm]

Does anybody actually know that this car turned left? That would need a very sharp turn

The left turn here, when done correctly, is a very sharp turn with a corner radius of only 2-3m and a normal turn speed of around 10mph. I can imagine that if the driver knew the turn already (e.g. from lessons or from living nearby) and knew that they had to turn sharply, but simply turned 5m too early, they would end up where they are. And even if they reacted quickly (lets say 2 seconds, which is unlikely for an unexpected situation, particularly at night) that would be plenty of time to cover the 5 metres to where they departed the road to where they ended up.

I don't know for sure, but I think that's much more likely than a left turn coming from Raynes Park turning into a right turn onto the tracks, nor do I think it's likely they came from Shannon Corner and did a 180 onto the tracks either.

As for the left turn originally discussed - one thing that's not obvious from the Street View imagery is that it's on a sharply falling gradient. From driver's eye level, as you approach the crossing you can't see your left turn lane on the other side - never mind the road markings. There's a short slope rising up to the tracks, which doesn't help, and then after the crossing it drops and turns sharply. Not the kind of thing that causes major problems, but just another difficulty for the unaware.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this like a repeat of the incedent at Cheshunt last year?

I thought that was intentional, and a desperate attempt by a drug dealer to get away from the chasing police?

So probably not at all similar…