Cardiff Central redevelopment plans

[Smwrff]

Some context on Cardiff Central development:
1. The parts of the station that are listed are:
- the main (north) building facade
- the main (north) booking hall interior
- the main (west) underground access tunnel

2. Listed (category 2) status does not prevent modifications (or even demolition) - but it does make it difficult.

3. The station is already operating at capacity and parts of it can get dangerously overcrowded. These current proposals improve capacity to a point by effectively moving the main entrance including main booking facilities, and cafes, resaturants etc to a new South Entrance building. The proposals also improve capacity and safety on Platform 0. These proposals have only limited impact on 'Listing' and are achievable.

4. The improvements do not adress the capacity limitations of the subway. This may be tolerable in the short term but are going to have to be adressed in the medium term as passenger numbers are projected to grow significantly. The best (only?) option is likely to be an over platform concourse linking the western end of the north and south booking halls. This will have to be looked at again and I hope that passive provision for this has been included in current plans.

 

[AdamWW]

3. The station is already operating at capacity and parts of it can get dangerously overcrowded. These current proposals improve capacity to a point by effectively moving the main entrance including main booking facilities, and cafes, resaturants etc to a new South Entrance building.

Bit of a shame then that the south entrance is on the wrong side for the city centre (and for the bus station as well as most other city centre bus stops).

Especially as there would seem to be a fair amount of space in front of the current main entrance to extend the concourse.

I suppose it fits with the way the bus station itself has its passenger entrances on the sides facing away from the city centre.

 

[Akela]

Some context on Cardiff Central development:
1. The parts of the station that are listed are:
- the main (north) building facade
- the main (north) booking hall interior
- the main (west) underground access tunnel

2. Listed (category 2) status does not prevent modifications (or even demolition) - but it does make it difficult.

3. The station is already operating at capacity and parts of it can get dangerously overcrowded. These current proposals improve capacity to a point by effectively moving the main entrance including main booking facilities, and cafes, resaturants etc to a new South Entrance building. The proposals also improve capacity and safety on Platform 0. These proposals have only limited impact on 'Listing' and are achievable.

4. The improvements do not adress the capacity limitations of the subway. This may be tolerable in the short term but are going to have to be adressed in the medium term as passenger numbers are projected to grow significantly. The best (only?) option is likely to be an over platform concourse linking the western end of the north and south booking halls. This will have to be looked at again and I hope that passive provision for this has been included in current plans.

The geography of Cardiff means that the northern entrance is always going to be the main one with the most footfall, regardless of how many cafes, restaurants and booking facilities they put on the southern entrance.

While the new developments south of the station and in Cardiff Bay will mean more demand for that side, which is currently mostly used as a taxi rank, it’s still going to pale in comparison to the northern end that faces the whole city centre, most of the suburbs, and is right next to the bus station which is the terminus for most of the major bus routes through the city.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some context on Cardiff Central development:
1. The parts of the station that are listed are:
- the main (north) building facade
- the main (north) booking hall interior
- the main (west) underground access tunnel

2. Listed (category 2) status does not prevent modifications (or even demolition) - but it does make it difficult.

3. The station is already operating at capacity and parts of it can get dangerously overcrowded. These current proposals improve capacity to a point by effectively moving the main entrance including main booking facilities, and cafes, resaturants etc to a new South Entrance building. The proposals also improve capacity and safety on Platform 0. These proposals have only limited impact on 'Listing' and are achievable.

4. The improvements do not adress the capacity limitations of the subway. This may be tolerable in the short term but are going to have to be adressed in the medium term as passenger numbers are projected to grow significantly. The best (only?) option is likely to be an over platform concourse linking the western end of the north and south booking halls. This will have to be looked at again and I hope that passive provision for this has been included in current plans.

I would think that if the Southern entrance (with bigger concourse) can take more of the people entering/leaving the station this will take pressure off not only the Northern concourse but also the Northern end of the listed subway. But it depends how many people need the subway for changing trains, I assume not a great proportion in relation to those starting or finishing their journey at Cardiff Central.

If something has to be in keeping with the existing station then a larger subway to the West of the current listed subway might be easier to get past planning then something overhead.

 

[Topological]

Hypothetical, but why would a bridge at the West end of the station cause an issue. The platform buildings stop well short of the ends of the platforms. Would need to steal some of the car park behind platform 0 though.

If the platform buildings are so important then filter all passengers looking to board trains to the new bridge and then use the existing subway as an exit only (i.e. barriers at the end only let people out).

Ideally add a bridge from platforms 1/2 to 3/4 at the East end too as those platforms handle long trains. The bridge would not be able to serve any other platforms owing to the other platforms all ending much further West.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The Southern entrance is the only one where you can drive to drop people off.

No it's not. There's another drop-off point on the northern side of the station ajacent to Platfform 0. You access it from Wood Street but it's not very well signposted or advertised so a lot of people don't know that it's there.

 

[Smwrff]

The busiest part of the station is subway connection to platforms 2/3 and 4/(5)/6 and from there to Northern concourse. Directing more passengers to new Southern Concourse eases congestion in north of subway but does nothing for congestion at platform connections.

it is possible that complete plans (to be submitted with impending planning permission application) will include a new subway connection to the west of existing - we will see but I am doubtful.

But I dont think there will be any problem in securing planning permission for an over platform concourse in the future.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Some context on Cardiff Central development:
1. The parts of the station that are listed are:
- the main (north) building facade
- the main (north) booking hall interior
- the main (west) underground access tunnel

I'm sorry but this is factually incorrect. The official listing can be found here.

As well as the above, the listed structures include the platforms, platform buildings, canopies, everything pre-war, in fact. Essentially the whole complex is listed although, you're right, the three areas you've listed are probably the most important parts.

The reason for so extensive a listing is given by Cadw.

"Listed as most complete example of GWR major city railway station of the period following the regrouping of the railway system."

Or, in other words, any alterations to any part of the station dating from the 1930s would subtract from it beinng the "most complete example".

Legally, as far as I understand it there is very little difference between Grade 1, Grade 2 and Grade 2*. They are signals to the planners of Cadw's assesment of a building's importance. In practise, it's hard to imagine major alterations to a Grade 1 building not being called in by WG Ministers but, with a project this size, that's pretty much inevitable anyway.

 

[Topological]

No it's not. There's another drop-off point on the northern side of the station ajacent to Platfform 0. You access it from Wood Street but it's not very well signposted or advertised so a lot of people don't know that it's there.

Thank you. I was very much one of the people who did not know that it was there.

 

[WAB]

No it's not. There's another drop-off point on the northern side of the station ajacent to Platfform 0. You access it from Wood Street but it's not very well signposted or advertised so a lot of people don't know that it's there.

Will this exist post-upgrade? If platform 0 is being enhanced there won’t be as much room there?

 

[Topological]

Looking at the Rugby crowd threads, reminds that the station has to deal with large crowds from the Millenium Stadium.

Common sense might say there would be a route through to the Southern concourse so that all Valley Lines crowds were waiting over there. Sensibly platforms 6,7 and 8 should use the south entrance.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Looking at the Rugby crowd threads, reminds that the station has to deal with large crowds from the Millenium Stadium.

Common sense might say there would be a route through to the Southern concourse so that all Valley Lines crowds were waiting over there. Sensibly platforms 6,7 and 8 should use the south entrance.

The Valleys passengers are already routed to the south entrance on event days. I can't see that the new entrance will make much difference to the numbers of passengers that can be handled. There may just be more sheltered queuing inside the concourse.

The only way I can see to increase passenger flows is to add some staircases (escalators preferably) to the other subway and make one subway for entrance and the other for exit. This is clearly too expensive, shame that the biggest station in Wales isn't a priority.

The lack of ambition for the main entrance is shocking, this would not happen in a major English station, particularly in London. Central Square will always have the vast majority of passengers entrances and exits, unless there's a cynical plan to put a one way system in place.

Very disappointing having seem two previous far more ambitious plans. I wonder how long it will be until some further interventions have to be made to properly increase capacity.

 

[Smwrff]

The busiest part of the station is subway connection to platforms 2/3 and 4/(5)/6 and from there to Northern concourse. Directing more passengers to new Southern Concourse eases congestion in north of subway but does nothing for congestion at platform connections.

it is possible that complete plans (to be submitted with impending planning permission application) will include a new subway connection to the west of existing - we will see but I am doubtful.

But I dont think there will be any problem in securing planning permission for an over platform concourse in the future.

I am getting my platform numbering confused - it should read platforms 1/2 and 3/4/(5)...but my point is the same.

But looking at the render for the booking hall, is that showing a new access at the western end??

 

[anthony263]

Hypothetical, but why would a bridge at the West end of the station cause an issue. The platform buildings stop well short of the ends of the platforms. Would need to steal some of the car park behind platform 0 though.

If the platform buildings are so important then filter all passengers looking to board trains to the new bridge and then use the existing subway as an exit only (i.e. barriers at the end only let people out).

Ideally add a bridge from platforms 1/2 to 3/4 at the East end too as those platforms handle long trains. The bridge would not be able to serve any other platforms owing to the other platforms all ending much further West.

I'm sure I've read somewhere one idea was exactly as you said large bridge like that at Reading would take the crowds and ease overcrowding in the subways

 

[Smwrff]

There are some fascinating drawings showing the original station layout here...

Cardiff Central’s iconic clocktower is being revamped as part of station refurbishment

Network Rail Wales & Borders engineers have revealed some of Cardiff Central station’s long-lost secrets as they deliver essential refurbishment work.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

 

[Envoy]

I wish they would just clearly signpost clearly in the subway 'City Centre & Stadium’ & ‘South Entrance’ as first timers are often confused.

 

[MikePJ]

Legally, as far as I understand it there is very little difference between Grade 1, Grade 2 and Grade 2*. They are signals to the planners of Cadw's assesment of a building's importance. In practise, it's hard to imagine major alterations to a Grade 1 building not being called in by WG Ministers but, with a project this size, that's pretty much inevitable anyway.

Yeah, I work in a Grade 2 listed building and we’re told it’s basically impossible to do anything significant to it without the involvement of a heritage architect and listed building consent. Which is a problem because it makes fixing all the leaks very slow and expensive!

 

[tigermonstera]

A Listed Building application for the Cardiff Central program has been submitted. It's available on the Council's planning website as 25/00630/LBC.

 

[td97]

A Listed Building application for the Cardiff Central program has been submitted. It's available on the Council's planning website as 25/00630/LBC.

Showing the as-yet unannounced extension to Platform 0... (DRG-EAR-001103)

 

[CapitalStar378]

Showing the as-yet unannounced extension to Platform 0... (DRG-EAR-001103)

Amazingly it's getting a canopy, we're very honoured! Assume it'll be long enough for a 10 car 800?

 

[WAB]

Amazingly it's getting a canopy, we're very honoured! Assume it'll be long enough for a 10 car 800?

Given it is only going to run from the water tower to the main concourse building, I'd be surprised if it fits more than 6 cars.

 

[Smwrff]

I have now gone through all of the plans in detail:
Positives:
- I like what they have done to declutter the northern booking hall and open up the wasted space under platform 1
- Platform 0 is a huge improvement
- Southern booking hall and Platform 8 is a major improvement

Negatives:
- Nominal improvements only to platform 1-7 facilities
- No improvements to Platform 1-7 access
- Platform 0 limited to 5/6 carriage trains - not able to take 9/10 carriage trains
- station capacity limited by subway capacity - no change

I expect that capacity limitations will mean that another major development will be needed in next 10 years - to add an overplatform concourse with escalator access to platforms 1-7. There is still room to do this....for now....

 

[AdamWW]

and is right next to the bus station which is the terminus for most of the major bus routes through the city.

Sadly, in terms of integrated transport, it isn't. msot Cardiff Bus routes (particularly the high frequency ones) loop through the centre of Cardiff.
Long distance services heading north go from Greyfriars Road on the opposite side of the centre.

But you'd still use the north entrance to the station though.

 

[WelshBluebird]

- I like what they have done to declutter the northern booking hall and open up the wasted space under platform 1

Just to expand on that - I'm not great at reading plans so maybe I'm wrong but it looks like they are planning on:

• Moving the northern concourse gateline forward. While today it is essentially where the subway entrance is, the plans show it being about half way between the subway entrance and the station exits / entrances.
• This means they will be able to provide more gates and allow people to spread out a bit more whilst coming out of the subway and towards the gateline (currently one of the main bottlenecks in my experience).
• It also means there will just be one gateline for both subways which in theory could encourage more use of the eastern one.
• It also means there will be a way to access platform 0 from the other platforms without passing through the gateline - this will be helpful not just with avoiding faff but also with the payg system too.
• I assume the above will result in the current sometimes open entrance from the car park directly onto platform 0 being closed / removed as it would result in a way to bypass the gateline otherwise. Of course the platform 0 works may well result in that going anyway!
• Not sure what that means for the whsmith or the ticket office - maybe someone else who is better able to read the plans can help there.

If I've totally missread the plans then shout at me and I'll correct this post!

 

[chargesmith]

I also cannot see where the ticket office is going to be in the new plans. Can't see any other major issues other than that.

 

[AdamWW]

• t also means there will be a way to access platform 0 from the other platforms without passing through the gateline - this will be helpful not just with avoiding faff but also with the payg system too

If they can't fix that in software then either they picked the wrong company to manage PAYG or didn't write the specs very well.

• I assume the above will result in the current sometimes open entrance from the car park directly onto platform 0 being closed / removed as it would result in a way to bypass the gateline otherwise.

Not inconceivable to have a few remotely monitored gates up there.

• Not sure what that means for the whsmith or the ticket office - maybe someone else who is better able to read the plans can help there.

Presumably moved to the new and improved South entrance.

Possibly a bit unhelpful for people entering from the current main entrance side. Though if you have a contactless card you should be able to go through the subway without cost by tapping in on one side and out on the other.

I also cannot see where the ticket office is going to be in the new plans. Can't see any other major issues other than that.

Do we know there is going to be one?

 

[Philip Roberts]

• It also means there will be a way to access platform 0 from the other platforms without passing through the gateline - this will be helpful not just with avoiding faff but also with the payg system too.

Thanks for your summarise. Really helpful. As an Ebbw line user, it will be great to have platform 0 properly integrated. It occurred to me though, if the Crossrail stop is not properly integrated at the south entrance, will it cause the same problems we currently see at platform 0 with PAYG?

 

[chargesmith]

I also cannot see where the ticket office is going to be in the new plans. Can't see any other major issues other than that.

Think I've found it on the plans now, it's to the right of the extended gateline from the non-paid concourse.

Also of note, the south entrance is not included in the planning application, presumably because it just covers the listed areas, but you can see some of what is proposed e.g. a changing places area.

 

[CapitalStar378]

I also cannot see where the ticket office is going to be in the new plans. Can't see any other major issues other than that.

No I can't either, I can see what looks like a lot of ticket machines, hopefully there will be some manned ticket desks.

It's unclear if there will be anything in the new southern entrance. Looks like a fair amount of retail, even one unit after the gate line in the northern hall.

No toilet facilities in the new southern entrance either.

 

[AdamWW]

No I can't either, I can see what looks like a lot of ticket machines, hopefully there will be some manned ticket desks.

It's unclear if there will be anything in the new southern entrance. Looks like a fair amount of retail, even one unit after the gate line in the northern hall.

No toilet facilities in the new southern entrance either.

So as now - no ticket, no loo.

(Except with PAYG that's no longer true for anyone with a working contactless card - free platform tickets...)